VCAA changes to VCE Chinese

[Stick]

Hey, I totally agree with you - it's just from what I'm hearing from a few other people, I'm telling you to proceed carefully, that's all. I didn't mean to cause offence, and I apologise if I did.

EDIT: Fixed.

[Professor Polonsky]

Can we keep in mind that that was one potential rule alteration which is part of one of six potential remedies by VCAA to what is a serious problem? Get some perspective, please. It's a discussion paper. Intended to raise points for discussion. If the proposed rule change which you're all yelling about not feasible, then it'll be dropped.

[Tasmania Jones]

I'm not going to chime in too much more, but this discussion is starting to take on the flavour of "Look at me I'm so special I'm really good at Chinese and I want my chance to shine like a little star and make my mummy proud so don't penalise me." I know many of you have a personal investment in this, but for the sake of the rest of us, please be tactful in your opinion.

I would like to clarify a few things.
1. I do recognise that there is a problem with non-Chinese students being discouraged from studying the language due to fierce competition from Chinese background students
2. I support sensible changes that give incentives for non-Chinese students to study Chinese WHILE At the same time NOT disadvantaging Chinese background students.
3. I rarely speak Chinese at home
4. I am quite average at Chinese compared to other students. While I may be better than some non-Chinese students, I would not consider myself good at Chinese. BY FAR
5. As stated in the beginning of the thread by others, the changes will not affect me (unless VCAA quickly rushes something through), so there would be no personal gain from fighting these.
6. I don't see anywhere where I have said anything to the effect of "Look at me I'm so special I'm really good at Chinese and I want my chance to shine like a little star and make my mummy proud so don't penalise me." If I have, please point it out.

[lzxnl]

Hey, I totally agree with you - it's just from what I'm hearing from a few other people, I'm telling you to proceed carefully, that's all. I didn't mean to cause offence, and I apologise if I did.

EDIT: Fixed.

All cool (:

Admittedly, it's easy for an argument against VCAA's proposition to seem elitist, but perhaps people aren't quite aware of the proportion of Chinese background students who aren't that great at Chinese and would probably struggle even more in SLA than non-background students currently do in SL. One thing we can agree on is that the system sucks. It really sucks. Which is why I HATED VCE Chinese.

Can we keep in mind that that was one potential rule alteration which is part of one of six potential remedies by VCAA to what is a serious problem? Get some perspective, please. It's a discussion paper. Intended to raise points for discussion. If the proposed rule change which you're all yelling about not feasible, then it'll be dropped.

Indeed, it is meant to be a discussion, but why the frustration and anger? I thought this was meant to be a friendly discussion (:

But ok, let's discuss each of these potential remedies in turn.

1. A double ATAR bonus that would recognise and reward students for having achieved a
level of communicative competence in both English and Mandarin

In principle, I like this one, although it shouldn't be restricted to Mandarin, and I wonder how it will be implemented.

2. A modified set of eligibility criteria for the current three VCE Chinese studies
This is the one I'm happy with least, as you can tell.

3. An ab initio course which would allow students to commence the study of VCE Units 1
and 2 Chinese at Beginner level
Which is effectively my plan of creating a new subject

4. A new VCE Chinese study, which would include conversational Chinese and the study of
Chinese culture and society. The component of cultural studies in this study would be
undertaken and assessed in English
Erm...I don't quite see the logic of this option. Firstly, why only Chinese culture; and secondly, this doesn't really help students who want to learn Chinese language and runs into the same issues as the current program as anyone could study this subject.

5. Expansion of the current VET Applied Language (Mandarin) study based on the two
current VET Certificates in Chinese language
Thing about VETs is that their inherent low scaling and inability to be counted in the primary four may be a major deterrent

6. A new scored VCE VET Chinese study based on either Certificate III in Mandarin or
Certificate III in Applied Language (Mandarin).
See above

[Stick]

I would like to clarify a few things.
1. I do recognise that there is a problem with non-Chinese students being discouraged from studying the language due to fierce competition from Chinese background students
2. I support sensible changes that give incentives for non-Chinese students to study Chinese WHILE At the same time NOT disadvantaging Chinese background students.
3. I rarely speak Chinese at home
4. I am quite average at Chinese compared to other students. While I may be better than some non-Chinese students, I would not consider myself good at Chinese. BY FAR
5. As stated in the beginning of the thread by others, the changes will not affect me (unless VCAA quickly rushes something through), so there would be no personal gain from fighting these.
6. I don't see anywhere where I have said anything to the effect of "Look at me I'm so special I'm really good at Chinese and I want my chance to shine like a little star and make my mummy proud so don't penalise me." If I have, please point it out.

I'm sorry you've taken my friendly warning the wrong way. Please don't take it personally. I really just wanted to avoid what has happened in a couple of other really insightful discussions recently.

[Tasmania Jones]

I'm sorry you've taken my friendly warning the wrong way. Please don't take it personally. I really just wanted to avoid what has happened in a couple of other really insightful discussions recently.

That's okay, it's all good.

[Tasmania Jones]

Looks like the government will create a new subject focussing on conversational Chinese and culture and society. They are also expanding VET?? programs and boosting ATARs of those who complete harder Chinese subjects.
More here: http://www.theage.com.au/national/tertiary-education/new-vce-chinese-subject-to-level-playing-field-20131217-2zjbu.html

Not much detail there but it looks like they are good changes. Hopefully they will encourage more people to study VCE Chinese but time will tell.

[drake]

a non-chinese VCE student can do well in chinese... i am proof... no background at all (non-asian, i am sri-lankan), never lived in china, no one in my family can speak chinese. i merely studied chinese at school and had a private tutor once a week. it is purely about hard work and memorising...as well as understanding the system and using it to your favour. during the entire year i continuously thought that the whole VCE chinese system was so unfair, but now i don't care!

[2NE1]

All I can say about this proposal is that it is racist towards Chinese people. Many people from different ethnic groups do English as first language even though they do not have an English speaking background, so does that mean that we should be separated into English background and Non-English background?
Our Chinese school has already filed many complaints and a major petition from all parents and it is unlikely the proposal of the segregation would pass. If it should, VCAA should expect an uproar from the Chinese community.

[vox nihili]

All I can say about this proposal is that it is racist towards Chinese people. Many people from different ethnic groups do English as first language even though they do not have an English speaking background, so does that mean that we should be separated into English background and Non-English background?
Our Chinese school has already filed many complaints and a major petition from all parents and it is unlikely the proposal of the segregation would pass. If it should, VCAA should expect an uproar from the Chinese community.

It's a very difficult issue to tackle though, because they've got to balance things properly and still get people to take Chinese, which is a struggle because those with non-Chinese background are finding it difficult to compete.

[lArcdeTriomphe]

It's a very difficult issue to tackle though, because they've got to balance things properly and still get people to take Chinese, which is a struggle because those with non-Chinese background are finding it difficult to compete.

Precisely. What people need to consider is: what is the bigger picture for students of Chinese? Is it simply to increase the number of 'non-background' students? Or is it to improve the standard of Chinese taught to students in Victoria, to *enhance* their Chinese language skills? What VCAA is proposing, in my opinion, is short-sighted and practically useless in achieving the true goal. (see http://www.theage.com.au/national/tertiary-education/new-vce-chinese-subject-to-level-playing-field-20131217-2zjbu.html)

In addition, what needs to be considered is: why do some students perform better than others in any subject? (and in particular Chinese). I think the answer lies more in effort and hark work (perhaps, having had earlier education) than simply being having a 'background'. And then, to use such a sweeping generalisation to account for good results in Chinese (i.e. this person did well because (s)he is a 'background speaker') is a bit demeaning, surely?

[2NE1]

It's a very difficult issue to tackle though, because they've got to balance things properly and still get people to take Chinese, which is a struggle because those with non-Chinese background are finding it difficult to compete.

can I just say that this year only 2 people received 50 for Chinese SL and one of them was a Non-Chinese. It is just dedication and hardwork and many of my friends with no Chinese background still take the subject. It is like French, German and other language subjects, there are very few that actually segregate FL and SL and SLA, so I wonder why they are further segregating Chinese students into categories that do not seem fair to everyone.

[wanna fite]

can I just say that this year only 2 people received 50 for Chinese SL and one of them was a Non-Chinese. It is just dedication and hardwork and many of my friends with no Chinese background still take the subject. It is like French, German and other language subjects, there are very few that actually segregate FL and SL and SLA, so I wonder why they are further segregating Chinese students into categories that do not seem fair to everyone.

Chinese forms the largest minority language in Australia so is being targeted.

And honestly, VCE isn't fair to everybody even in its current form. This is partly due to the conflict between creating a fair system to rank students to enter tertiary education, and to ACTUALLY TEACH the students (but teach what? skills for the workforce? expanding knowledge and thinking ability? etc.)

The way I see it, it would be beneficial if more Australians were fluent in more than one language.
But have government initiatives like the +5 LOTE bonus effective in achieving this? No, I think not - fundamental to these failures is the emphasis of final years in high school being focused on limited study designs.

This is just one of many flaws with the current LOTE system. A scaled score in Chinese  indicates a higher level of language fluency than the same score in any other language. Chinese dialects such as Cantonese are not available despite far smaller languages being offered.

The clearest, but arguably most difficult solution, would be to improve the LOTE system in Australian schools. Outside of VCE is where most language is learnt. In the years After passing through the compulsory LOTE system, I can barely understand a word of French or Italian.

[vox nihili]

can I just say that this year only 2 people received 50 for Chinese SL and one of them was a Non-Chinese. It is just dedication and hardwork and many of my friends with no Chinese background still take the subject. It is like French, German and other language subjects, there are very few that actually segregate FL and SL and SLA, so I wonder why they are further segregating Chinese students into categories that do not seem fair to everyone.

Well that makes quite a good point. The issue isn't that they're struggling to compete, it's that people think it is a struggle to compete. They see having Chinese heritage as some sort of great advantage, when in reality it doesn't represent a particularly huge advantage in itself at all. Free tutors at home and a bit of prior exposure is only going to get you so far.

I find it somewhat difficult to understand why the Australian Government and the various state governments have such an obsession with Asian languages. There isn't as great a need for Asian languages in particular as seems to be commonly accepted. It also completely misses the point about learning a language. Anybody who learns a language purely so they can use that language will never learn it.

[Professor Polonsky]

This is just one of many flaws with the current LOTE system. A scaled score in Chinese  indicates a higher level of language fluency than the same score in any other language.

Oh wow well done, you must have completed all LOTE subjects to say this, what a terrific achievement