New VCE Subject next year

[Lasercookie]

It appears to be named "VCE Extended Investigation". It looks to be something along the lines of a science research project.

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/correspondence/bulletins/2012/July/vce_study.html#H2N1002C

I've quoted a few of the interesting bits here:

As advised in the VCAA Bulletin, VCE VCAL and VET  No. 93, published in November 2011, the VCAA is in the process of developing a new VCE study, the Extended Investigation. The VCAA expects this study will be available as an unscored Unit 3 and 4 sequence in 2013, pending approval by the VCAA Board and the Victorian Registration and Qualifications Authority (VRQA).

Further information will be provided to schools as early as possible in Term 3.

November 2011 Bulletin (Page 7-8)
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/correspondence/bulletins/2011/November/NovBull.pdf

In 2007, the VCAA commissioned a report investigating the feasibility of an extended project option within the VCE.

...

In 2010, the VCAA commenced development of a study design for a new VCE Units 3 and 4 study that would provide students with the opportunity to undertake extended independent research.

Aims and structure of the proposed VCE Extended Investigation study
The study is designed to enable students to:
• construct rigorous, searching research questions
• design and undertake an independent investigation
• understand and apply research methods
• undertake an in-depth learning in a chosen area of investigation
• develop as independent, critical and reflective learners
• develop project management knowledge and skills
• analyse and evaluate results
• develop skills in written and oral presentation
• use their learning experiences to support their personal aspirations for higher education and career development.

It is expected that students who successfully complete the pilot in 2013 will receive an unscored Units 3 and 4 sequence for satisfactory completion purposes and will be eligible for an increment towards their ATAR

I think the unscored thing is just for the initial pilot study design next year.

[Lasercookie]

oops, it's actually not science-specific, I confused the headings while reading the VCAA bulletin.

[binders]

a mini thesis. sounds a little bit like the extended essay from the IB

[MJRomeo81]

I think they really need to explain:

a) the increment towards your ATAR, and

b) who assesses (and grades) your mini thesis? Will VCAA use software like Turnitin to check for plagiarism?

I don't like the sound of this new 'subject' at all. In VCE, the last thing a student would need is some massive research paper hanging over his/her head. How the hell are students meant to conduct research when they are so busy with their other VCE studies? This isn't like University where students have access to thousands of books and numerous other higher education resources.

The other question is how many students who attempt this unit will take it seriously? I know people in uni who have mastered the art of plagiarism, and get away with it. It would be even easier to cheat in this new VCE unit. And forget about the moral arguments regarding cheating. Honestly, who wouldn't try and take advantage of something like this, if it will boost your ATAR? I know I would, simply because the rest of the state would be doing it.

[binders]

A vce student has access to heaps of resources. there are libraries, the state library, and yeah, even the university libraries which joe bloggs can use, just not borrow from.

as for increment towards atar, why should that be a problem? subjects like lit are assessed primarily through essays yet are graded and contribute to atar. It's likely that the subject will have a small cohort, so closer scrutiny of the theses, and use of software like turnitin should be possible.
As for people trying to take advantage of it, would they get away with it if the thesis was actually scrutinised? i suspect that most vce papers and yeah, even uni ones, are only cursorily read when being marked, allowing people to get away with plagiarism.

I know of several people who would have been capable and even loved the challenge of doing some research during year 12. If the subject is only one of 4, then the "massive research paper" may not contribute much more workload than some other subjects.

[MonsieurHulot]

I'd be interested in finding out some more information. It seems pretty interesting to me.
I think that plagiarism would be as much of an issue as it would be in a subject like English or Literature, and I assume that they would combat it in a similar way. As for 'massive research paper' I can't see why it would be any more stressing than a regular subject. Most likely they have structured it to have a similar workload to other 3&4 subjects.

[thushan]

I think they really need to explain:

a) the increment towards your ATAR, and

b) who assesses (and grades) your mini thesis? Will VCAA use software like Turnitin to check for plagiarism?

I don't like the sound of this new 'subject' at all. In VCE, the last thing a student would need is some massive research paper hanging over his/her head. How the hell are students meant to conduct research when they are so busy with their other VCE studies? This isn't like University where students have access to thousands of books and numerous other higher education resources.

The other question is how many students who attempt this unit will take it seriously? I know people in uni who have mastered the art of plagiarism, and get away with it. It would be even easier to cheat in this new VCE unit. And forget about the moral arguments regarding cheating. Honestly, who wouldn't try and take advantage of something like this, if it will boost your ATAR? I know I would, simply because the rest of the state would be doing it.

Is it actually that consequential? If the increment is what I suspect it is (something like a uni subject where it counts as a 6th subject), then the idea of cheating, while its disgusting, is fortunately not going to be THAT consequential. I really like this idea of a subject as it is a very valuable learning tool in terms of developing research skills, and this kind of subject is long overdue. Creativity is to be rewarded.

[Eriny]

Obviously the concerns expressed in this thread are valid, but I think it's a great idea!

[paulsterio]

I never think a new subject can be a bad thing, if you don't like it then don't take it - plain and simple. Having a new subject will open up new opportunities for students who might be interested in a subject like this or who might want to take onboard something like this, I don't think that it's a bad thing at all.

I think Thushan has a point - look at it this way - there are always going to be people who cheat and there's really nothing we can do to stop those who cheat - but the best thing about an increment system is that it won't matter too much in the end. Either way, I think they should have some mechanism of checking for cheats too though.

And forget about the moral arguments regarding cheating. Honestly, who wouldn't try and take advantage of something like this, if it will boost your ATAR? I know I would, simply because the rest of the state would be doing it.

So you're saying that if everyone else steals then you would steal too, regardless of whether it's wrong or right?

Well to answer your question - I wouldn't - I wouldn't cheat to get a higher ATAR because that is meaningless to me - it's just a four digit number which I don't particularly care about - however, I want my ATAR to represent what I've been able to achieve by my own work, intelligence and time. I don't want it to represent how well I can cheat and get away with it. I would much rather a low ATAR and live happily, knowing I gave my best than to get a high ATAR, get into a prestigious course at uni and spend the rest of my life knowing that I've built my life and my career on a lie.

[Lasercookie]

It is expected that students who successfully complete the pilot in 2013 will receive an unscored Units 3 and 4 sequence for satisfactory completion purposes and will be eligible for an increment towards their ATAR.

It uses the term "unscored Units 3 and 4 sequence", which is the same term they use for some of those VET subjects and the uni extension courses. Judging from the sentence too, I have a suspicion that it's only going to be unscored for the pilot trial, though I can't say that for sure since I can't find anything else that elaborates further about assessment.

I've found a few more links
http://www.goodschools.com.au/news/students-to-trial-vce-thesis-subject
http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/high-school-students-trial-to-write-university-thesis-20110829-1jigl.html
http://www.slav.schools.net.au/downloads/08pastpapers/41elearning/howes.pptx <---- presentation by some guy from VCAA (from 2008 though)

There's a trial of the subject using year 10 students this year, that VCAA bulletin listed that and that Age article lists Macrob, MHS and Nossal as participating in that this year (anyone here know anything about that?).

From that powerpoint:

Structure:
- Introduction to critical thinking
- Introduction to research methodogologies
- Question selection refinement
- Oral defence of question and methodology
- Critical thinking test
- 4000 word essay
- Oral defence of essay

Unit 3 was listed to be designing an extended investigation and Unit 4 was listed to be presenting an extended investigation.

I don't think having to produce some kind of sustained research report would be all that different to all those subjects in the VCE that have those massive folios students have to put together. I think it'd be the same opportunity for plagiarism you have there. There's also the mention of teacher supervision. I don't know how extensive that is but at the minimum it'd be having to have regular checks of your progress with a teacher, which would help deter plagiarism.

The fact that you have to be able to present some kind of talk on your work would reduce cheating to mostly just the content of the research. Interestingly, that powerpoint uses phrase 'oral defences', which I wonder would mean if you'd be asked questions designed to check that you really do know what you're talking about, rather than just an VCE English style oral presentation.


edit: As binders mentioned, this is similar to that IB thing. How does the IB cope with plagiarism and cheating?

[Stick]

I believe there is some program like this in the SACE system. I did my work experience last year with a Year 12 boy from Adelaide and he was saying that part of the course requires him to undertake a research-based subject that sounds like this one. He also mentioned that the objective of the task is to show that you have learnt something new and haven't focussed your studying on areas that you know quite well. He provided me with an example of a girl who decided to complete the project on animation and she barely passed because it was an area that she was already quite skilled in. I'm not really sure how it works - perhaps if any of you know someone in South Australia in Year 12, you could ask them about this.

[Lolly]

Yes, they already do this in South Australia. My cousin did it last year, but I had no idea until now that they were implementing it here.

[paulsterio]

I think something like this is quite overdue considering how they're moving away from book learning to research, independent and inquiry learning these days.

[MJRomeo81]

Just to clarify my original post, I am assuming that the increment towards your ATAR is on a numeric scale that can vary. e.g. increment of 1 to 5 depending on how good your paper is. However if VCAA decide that the increment is a constant (regardless of quality you get an increment of X if you pass) then I guess the subject is not bad. But this depends on how much of an increment we are talking about.

as for increment towards atar, why should that be a problem? subjects like lit are assessed primarily through essays yet are graded and contribute to atar. It's likely that the subject will have a small cohort, so closer scrutiny of the theses, and use of software like turnitin should be possible.

How do VCAA determine that one paper is better than another given that your thesis could be on literally anything? I'm pretty sure with a thesis in uni it's typically pass or fail. The beauty of VCE is that everything is standardised. What if one student tackled a more challenging topic? Who decides whether that is a more challenging topic? Do VCAA employ a panel of experts in the relevant field to read these papers? This is why I feel that the increment awarded should not vary.

I know of several people who would have been capable and even loved the challenge of doing some research during year 12. If the subject is only one of 4, then the "massive research paper" may not contribute much more workload than some other subjects.

I really like this idea of a subject as it is a very valuable learning tool in terms of developing research skills, and this kind of subject is long overdue.

I never think a new subject can be a bad thing, if you don't like it then don't take it - plain and simple. Having a new subject will open up new opportunities for students who might be interested in a subject like this or who might want to take onboard something like this, I don't think that it's a bad thing at all.

I do agree that this subject is great for those who wish to get into research or something. But from my perspective, this subject would make it tougher for the average student to achieve a higher ATAR. And I've always thought that VCE should try and cater for the majority.

To me it seems like there would be a strong correlation between the quality of school (assuming it would have better thesis supervisors/teachers who have actually wrote a research paper before, assuming it would have more experts in a variety of fields) and the ATAR increment you receive for your thesis. There are enough avenues for VCE students to maximise their ATAR (UMEP & overloading subjects).

So you're saying that if everyone else steals then you would steal too, regardless of whether it's wrong or right?

No I wouldn't steal. I would be in control of that situation. But if the cheaters are impacting my ATAR score directly (and as a direct consequence I could possibly miss out on my course) then I would be very tempted to play their game. I don't expect anyone on this board to see it the way I do. But the question should not be how a high scoring VCE community sees it. How would Joe Bloggs see it? Do you honestly think the state will care? The one thing I liked about VCE was that you really couldn't find an effective way to cheat blatantly. From my experiences, the cheating caught up to the people who cheated in SACs.

I just can't help but see this subject as an ATAR-booster and nothing else. Yeah some would take it seriously but I cannot imagine that being true for the majority.

[Special At Specialist]

However if VCAA decide that the increment is a constant (regardless of quality you get an increment of X if you pass) then I guess the subject is not bad. But this depends on how much of an increment we are talking about.

How do VCAA determine that one paper is better than another given that your thesis could be on literally anything? I'm pretty sure with a thesis in uni it's typically pass or fail. The beauty of VCE is that everything is standardised. What if one student tackled a more challenging topic? Who decides whether that is a more challenging topic? Do VCAA employ a panel of experts in the relevant field to read these papers? This is why I feel that the increment awarded should not vary.

I would prefer if the system gave increments similar to the way university subjects work. So say if you score less than 60%, you get 3 aggregate points, 60-80% is 4 points and 80%+ is 5 points (just an example; it doesn't have to be those exact figures). Why should students who only just passed get the same mark as a student who spent hours perfecting his thesis?

I know that there is a bit of an issue with trying to judge which thesis is better than another, but isn't that what they already do in many VCE subjects? In the literature exam, one person might write an essay on a different book to a different person, and yet they are still being compared. In the English oral, everyone chooses a different topic, yet they are still able to be compared to each other. Even in food tech, people choose their own recipes and make their own food, but they are still compared to people with a completely different meal. What makes this situation any different?

There are enough avenues for VCE students to maximise their ATAR (UMEP & overloading subjects).

I just can't help but see this subject as an ATAR-booster and nothing else. Yeah some would take it seriously but I cannot imagine that being true for the majority.

On the contrary, I don't think there are enough opportunities. Not everyone is given the opportunity to do a university subject (otherwise I would've done university maths), some people can't afford to pay for distance education in conjunction with regular school fees (otherwise I would've done distance ed last year) and some schools don't let their students accelerate the subjects they want to because the classes are full (this is the reason why I couldn't accelerate further maths or psychology, not to mention the fact that my school doesn't let people accelerate most "hard" subjects like maths methods or physics).

And if the subject counted as a 6th study increment, would it really matter? It would replace any other VCE subject that could normally be used and it would work much the same way as university studies (which no-one seems to have a problem with). I don't think that anyone could take advantage of this anymore than they are disadvantaged by it.