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September 24, 2020, 12:19:58 pm

Author Topic: COVID-19 and Education  (Read 33360 times)  Share 

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whys

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #285 on: August 09, 2020, 02:04:54 pm »
+15
Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score. Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #286 on: August 09, 2020, 02:12:15 pm »
+8
Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score. Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.
I completely agree! I think that exams need to go ahead in order for this year to be as fair as possible. Without exams, there is NO consistency. As well with the special consideration, I feel that it is quite tough to measure the affects but it is nice knowing that they were trying to level out the playing field. I don't love the idea of teacher rankings either as it could be a bit subjective however it could make be a backup for odd SAC results?

Also with year 11 results being used, I think this is a terrible idea because some people use year 11 as there trial year for subjects, study techniques, etc. I for one did not do general maths 1/2 but am doing further maths 3/4, and my 1/2 subjects are a little bit over the place to be used for my 3/4 results.
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brothanathan

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #287 on: August 09, 2020, 03:28:14 pm »
+3
Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 03:36:58 pm by brothanathan »

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #288 on: August 09, 2020, 05:26:23 pm »
+5
Also with year 11 results being used, I think this is a terrible idea because some people use year 11 as there trial year for subjects, study techniques, etc. I for one did not do general maths 1/2 but am doing further maths 3/4, and my 1/2 subjects are a little bit over the place to be used for my 3/4 results.

Strongly agree. I personally did not work hard at all in year 11 and did quite poorly. If my teachers were to use my year 11 efforts and results as a benchmark, I would be in a lot of trouble.

On a broader scale, the students at my school who received academic awards for their subjects or overall achievement in year 11 didn't even necessarily do well in year 12. In my school, at least, year 11 was mistreated by most people. I think there are a significant amount of individuals who only turn on and start working hard in year 12. This was definitely the case for me and my peers in that the make up of high scorers often were very average students just the year before.
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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #289 on: August 10, 2020, 03:21:37 am »
+5
Considering that ATAR is just a ranking anyways, if everyone is 'special' then wouldn't that mean no one is special.

Hard disagree if only because I hate this line in general. The typical reasoning is that if everyone is special, then the idea of what makes something "special" becomes shifted - which is untrue. If I have a trait that is special, it could be entirely different to the trait of someone else that is special, and so "special" as it once was remains. This paradox, unlike other more worthy ones, only forms because we decide it should be a paradox - NOT because it inherently makes no sense, like the Liar paradox.

Indeed, in this case, it's not about everyone being special - it's about the fact that different people have been affected in different ways, and the way to treat this impact will inherently be different for every person. Having not seen the petition in question (although I doubt it will go far - lol you ever seen a petition ever affect the Government), I can't really comment any more, but there's my thoughts on the matter.

I'm particularly doubtful about teachers ranking their students based on what they think they would be ---> which is really subjective. I was hoping that they could consider other more objective things like how people performed in year 11.

Year 11 is inherently subjective, though. The topics covered can be entirely different to the topics covered in year 12 (let's compare my year 11 chemistry scores to year 12 shall we - I'd love to have my constantly 100% tests compared to a sea ranging from 50%-96%), the schools set the difficulty of the material, and people just often feel less motivated to try hard unless they're interested in scholarships, doing university enhancement, or have an inherent sense of competition, as others have pointed out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I just don't think it makes sense for your year 12 teachers to predict where you would be, as they have barely seen your real potentials without the influence of covid. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to consider year 11 results or opinions from your year 11 teachers?

I mean, your year 12 teachers work with your year 11 teachers. You honestly think they're going to sit in a vacuum and not talk to each other? Not to mention that they'll still have access to your year 11 results. Plus, there's no guarantee that at every school, whoever taught you year 11 still teaches there. I wouldn't be surprised if as many as a teacher EVERY SECOND SCHOOL who taught a year 11 subject is no longer at the school, considering how often rotations occur.

Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score.

Interesting argument since research suggests that standardised tests are a poor method for testing a person's ability

Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.

I mean, it's entirely true that the disparity will still exist, no matter what we do. But we don't know that this won't help - again, we don't actually know HOW they're going to address the inequity (unless someone can provide me with a source), just that your teachers will be the judge of it.

There's a lot of fears, there's a lot of "it'll suck if x happens" being thrown around, but if we don't actually KNOW what the government is going to do (and I repeat - if you've got a source that I've missed, please educate me. Knowledge is power, and tbh I really want to deconstruct the Government's opinion in a way that'll make you all feel at ease if I can. The running around in circles being worried almost feels as stressful to watch as it likely is to experience), you're probably better off not thinking about it, and instead trying to focus on getting through stage 4.

Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.

Spoken like a true anarchist? Tbh I'm entirely confused by what your point is.
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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #290 on: August 10, 2020, 09:58:23 am »
+1
Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.
I don't like the idea but I kind of agree. Myself, I can't even remember a lot of my year 11 results... so I don't know, if they use that, if that's good or not. I guess if the worst comes to the worst we can all rely on the GAT, if it happens?
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brothanathan

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #291 on: August 10, 2020, 10:06:14 am »
+3
Spoken like a true anarchist? Tbh I'm entirely confused by what your point is.

I'm taking that as a compliment. Thank you, you couldn't put it any better, like a true anarchist. Had to phrase my point like that, as to avoid any conflicts.

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.

Hope this assists a little bit with the interpretation of my initial viewpoint. I would like to not decipher it further, for the sake of not going beyond moderate controversy.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 10:27:17 am by brothanathan »

keltingmeith

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #292 on: August 10, 2020, 12:23:02 pm »
0
I'm taking that as a compliment. Thank you, you couldn't put it any better, like a true anarchist. Had to phrase my point like that, as to avoid any conflicts.

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.

Hope this assists a little bit with the interpretation of my initial viewpoint. I would like to not decipher it further, for the sake of not going beyond moderate controversy.

I mean, I have more anarchist friends than I thought I'd ever have, and think we can all have an open discussion about these things without judging each other? (unless your views are discriminatory, in which case I'd like to help you see why those views are damaging to yourself as well as the person your discriminating against)

To which I have to say, I don't think society is AT ALL like you seem to say it is. I do agree that the first step is as important as the last, but also that point kind of doesn't follow from your first statement? It's like saying, "Steak is problematic in that it comes from animals - so we should all accept that cheesecake is the best dessert" - like sure, what you're SAYING is inherently true, but has no relevance to your initial point. The worst bit is that it encourages people to agree with you, because they agree with the one point you've actually given - cheesecake IS the best dessert.

And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?
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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #293 on: August 10, 2020, 01:43:15 pm »
+20
And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?
Dude, you can't just put "no offence" in front of an insult and expect it to be unoffensive. Let's keep the conversation respectful on all sides, please. :)

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.
This pandemic and the way it has affected our society is unprecedented. Nobody alive today has been through anything like this; not just in reference to a full global pandemic, but one in the midst of rapid technological and scientific advancement. To say that Year 12 students this year are experiencing the "real world" is true in some sense; but it's also a fallacy. Year 12 is a period of transition, and at the moment, that movement - along with the rest of the world's progression - is being wildly interrupted. There's no VCE student this year that isn't fully aware of the impact this virus has had on our lives. Year 12 is part of the "real world". The struggles you're facing in education and the decision to cut exams are real. But it's not normal, and certainly not an experience that any of us graduates had to deal with. Our "real world" was very, very different to yours, and by no one's fault. No government, no society, no conspiracy. Just an extremely transmittable virus.

I don't like the idea but I kind of agree. Myself, I can't even remember a lot of my year 11 results... so I don't know, if they use that, if that's good or not. I guess if the worst comes to the worst we can all rely on the GAT, if it happens?
It's an unfortunate place to be in and I really, really feel for you guys. Standardised tests are a flawed tool useful only to those more academically-minded whilst ignoring those with more practical skills and understanding, but they're what people are used to - even if they can't be judged as an accurate representation of a student's abilities this year. Basing grades on Year 11 results is also an awful idea, considering the huge variation in attitudes and zero consideration for how students have changed this year. It's a rock and a hard place.
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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #294 on: August 10, 2020, 02:11:43 pm »
+9
Dude, you can't just put "no offence" in front of an insult and expect it to be unoffensive. Let's keep the conversation respectful on all sides, please. :)

I mean, noted - but I did mean it in that I legitimately don't mean or intend offence. Apologies to all involved
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whys

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #295 on: August 10, 2020, 02:19:52 pm »
+8
Interesting argument since research suggests that standardised tests are a poor method for testing a person's ability
The VCE/ATAR system of having standardised exams will not change for a long while, despite it being flawed. I'm not saying standardised tests are the best way to go but it has, for as long as I know, always been this way. It will continue to be this way. To clarify what I meant - I'm saying that our scheduled end of year exams are the best way forward to ensure that our study scores turn out somewhat fair/comparable. Resorting to only SAC scores and the GAT/year 11 results will be disastrous for many. They can't just abolish the system three quarters into the year and say 'scrap exams, we're going to do X instead' because standardised tests are inherently flawed.

keltingmeith

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #296 on: August 10, 2020, 02:30:26 pm »
+1
The VCE/ATAR system of having standardised exams will not change for a long while, despite it being flawed. I'm not saying standardised tests are the best way to go but it has, for as long as I know, always been this way. It will continue to be this way. To clarify what I meant - I'm saying that our scheduled end of year exams are the best way forward to ensure that our study scores turn out somewhat fair/comparable. Resorting to only SAC scores and the GAT/year 11 results will be disastrous for many. They can't just abolish the system three quarters into the year and say 'scrap exams, we're going to do X instead' because standardised tests are inherently flawed.

Yeah, fair. Granted, at this point it's still hypothetical, and I doubt the Government is the type to make a move as controversial as removing exams in the current state of things
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brothanathan

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #297 on: August 10, 2020, 06:22:23 pm »
+4
And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?

Well am I trying to discriminate anyone? I appreciate your honesty (and I affirm that putting 'no offence' does signify this honesty) and I will still be vague sadly, since if I weren't I would probably disturb some (yes still being vague here). I'm judging you? No (pretty clear I am not judging any specific person if you look back on it). I don't want to be mean, but it seems that you're the only one that's making judgements on the individual, and I feel you shouldn't let this fire of yours damage you also. To summarise, just take my lines with a grain of salt.

Our "real world" was very, very different to yours, and by no one's fault. No government, no society, no conspiracy. Just an extremely transmittable virus.

Me being vague and taking this too off centre doesn't help. Re-evaluating what I initially posted, I guess my comments were beyond the conversation and also beyond just about the virus or these conspiracy assertions. But I will still say that my perception of this world can be understated as 'corruption'. Corruption not only in our current times, but centuries ago, many forms and types of dilemmas we have failed to solve. We can't change history, we can change how we operate. But it's hard to change how we operate when most aren't able to face what's at heart and recognise that they're in a sense repeating history in terms of the motives of those before us but with a different goal in mind (like they ever cared, all they care is to satisfy their 'unhealthy' needs). Putting a band-aid on things won't solve anything. Redefining things won't solve anything, if there's no consistent definition. A definition that is shared by all, a definition that those with certain motives won't find loopholes. This definition is impossible to be achieved atm in our 'real' world. What I'm discussing is definitely off topic, vague, and I'll leave it there.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 09:53:45 pm by brothanathan »

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #298 on: August 11, 2020, 08:26:33 am »
+4
Well am I trying to discriminate anyone? I appreciate your honesty (and I affirm that putting 'no offence' does signify this honesty) and I will still be vague sadly, since if I weren't I would probably disturb some (yes still being vague here). I'm judging you? No (pretty clear I am not judging any specific person if you look back on it). I don't want to be mean, but it seems that you're the only one that's making judgements on the individual, and I feel you shouldn't let this fire of yours damage you also. To summarise, just take my lines with a grain of salt.

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply you were being discriminatory OR judging of others, meant more that you should feel open to discussion without fear of either of those things happening. Hell, you're being so vague about everything I think it's basically impossible to even feel judged by you atm 😂 Was just hoping to get your actual thoughts on the table so we could have a discussion
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whys

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #299 on: August 11, 2020, 09:15:35 am »
+4
Our education minister has just said that not only will our ATARs be moderated, but also our study scores. They've created a new category of educational disadvantage that is supposed to take everything into consideration and 'level the playing field', and the GAT will be used to help determine our level of achievement and will play a part in this moderation. How does everyone feel about this?