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July 16, 2019, 10:03:23 pm

Author Topic: I want to be a lawyer - don't think i can get the ATAR - Advice??  (Read 172 times)  Share 

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JadeRhoden

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Namely Law & Criminology, Juris Doctor and Paramedicine


I didn't know were to put this so I thought I might put it here and I'm hoping it'll get a lil attention to help me answer some questions. Ever since I was 9 I wanted to be a lawyer but gave up when I realized I needed a 94 ATAR and come on lets be realistic I don't think i can even get a 90 - recently I've decided or realised I won't live with myself if I don't try so i'm looking for advice

Quote
Laws and Criminology
Bachelor degree (honours)/Bachelor degree

ATAR requirements
98 - Lowest Selection Rank to which an offer was made
94 - Monash guarantee for 2019 entry

Subject prerequisites
All applicants must satisfy the following prerequisites or their equivalents.
English
English Units 3 & 4 with a study score of at least 35 in English (EAL) or 30 in English other than EAL

How do students achieve a 90+ ATAR?
How hard is it to achieve a 94?
What kind of study habits do students who achieve a 90+ ATAR's have?
Is it unrealistic for me to have this ambition (on getting a 94+)?
Does any 90+ students have any advice?
Can you transfer into a law course if you dont get a high enough ATAR?
Are there any other pathways?? (I've looked but it's confusing)
Does hard work actually pay off?
Has anyone here gotten into a law degree with a <90 ATAR?
How can I make my dream real?

Quote
Juris Doctor
Professional entry master degree

Qualifications
An undergraduate degree (or equivalent) with at least a Grade Point Average (GPA) of 5.0 on a 7 point scale, or qualification/experience or satisfactory substitute that the faculty considers to be equivalent.
Or
An undergraduate degree (or equivalent) with at least a Grade Point Average (GPA) of 4.0 on a 7 point scale and LSAT score of 150+ (taken within 5 years prior to applying for admission).
Or
If, in addition to a bachelor degree (or equivalent) the applicant has incomplete studies in a law admission degree course, a minimum GPA of 5.0 on a 7 point scale in the law studies, with no fail result in the final year, is required. Credit for prior studies, up to a maximum of 48 points may be awarded.

English requirements

English language requirements are met by an applicant having studied in an institution where English is the language of instruction and assessment for the entire institution and have satisfactorily completed the equivalent of one years full-time (two standard full-time semesters) of either:
a university undergraduate award program; or
a program that has been assessed as being taught at an equivalent level to Monash University undergraduate study; or
Postgraduate study as specified above

Minimum English language requirement:
IELTS 7.0 overall (no band lower than 6.5)
TOEFL Paper-based test: 587 with TWE of 4.5
TOEFL Internet-based test: score of 94 overall with minimum scores: Writing 24, Listening 20, Reading 19, and speaking 20.

Whats LSAT? Is that like the bar?
Whats IELTS? WHats TOEFL?
Can you do a law degree and then Juris Doctor? Whats difference???

Quote
Paramedicine
Bachelor degree

ATAR requirements
82.8 - Lowest Selection Rank to which an offer was made
70 - Monash guarantee for 2019 entry
70.95 - Lowest ATAR to which an offer was made

Subject prerequisites
English
Units 3 & 4: a study score of at least 30 in English (EAL) or 25 in English other than EAL
Maths
Units 3 & 4: a study score of at least 22 in Mathematical Methods (any) or Specialist Mathematics, or a score of at least 25 in Further Mathematics

Is a 30 study score average? Is it easy to get a 30 in English?
Is it more realistic to focus on getting a 70? Is my ambition to become a lawyer futile?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 02:47:17 pm by JadeRhoden »

brenden

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Re: I want to be a lawyer - don't think i can get the ATAR - Advice??
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 01:13:25 pm »
+7
Hey, I'm just going to cherry pick the easy questions if you don't mind, I'm sure others will be along to answer the gritty stuff!

Can you transfer into a law course if you dont get a high enough ATAR?
Yes, you absolutely can, and I think this can be a fair option for students who fall short of getting an offer. If you are strategic about your university choices and treat the first year of university like most people treat year 12, it's very feasible. Often, people treat first year uni like a holiday and don't take their grades seriously, but in my experience, it is straightforward enough to get decent grades at uni if you are hyper-focused on it.

Transferring is definitely a feasible back up.

Are there any other pathways?? (I've looked but it's confusing)
Basically, you've got direct entry after Year 12. Or you start an undergraduate degree then transfer into undergraduate law, or, you get a degree, and end up doing Law at a postgraduate level (or enter into an undergraduate law as a mature age student if a uni accepts you).

Does hard work actually pay off?
Hard work at the wrong things won't. If you want to build big biceps and you work really hard making your legs stronger, the hard work won't pay off.
If you are working at the right things, then, yes, hard work pays off, more often than not. You're early in your VCE journey, it is absolutely possible for you to set yourself up to do well next year.
Can you do a law degree and then Juris Doctor? You can't can you?
I'm not sure if you technically 'can' or not (like, probably), but there would be no point. It's the same qualification. the JD is a postgraduate law degree, the Bachelor of Laws is an undergraduate law degree... you can be a lawyer after either of them.
Is a 30 study score average? Is it easy to get a 30 in English?
Yes, 30 is average, and yes, it will be easy enough for you personally to get a 30 in English, given you have decent writing skills. For others, a 30 in English may be quite difficult. But if you're looking for a 94, you shouldn't care about a 30 in English. A better question is "Is it easy to get a 40 in English", and the answer is "it's kinda hard, but you can do it, and you should try".
Is it more realistic to focus on getting a 70? Is my ambition to become a lawyer futile?
Not futile. Nurse the ambition and let it grow. Work hard and work smart, you can do it.
✌️just do what makes you happy ✌️

AngelWings

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Re: I want to be a lawyer - don't think i can get the ATAR - Advice??
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 01:18:01 pm »
+4
Hey Jade! Iím the mod who does a lot of the high school to uni transition stuff around here (thatís what VTAC is about) and, although I wonít be the best source, I do know a few pathways that might be helpful to you. However, Iím currently a little sparse for time (forgive me, itís my lunch break), so Iíll edit this post later to answer a lot of your questions above. Sorry for the wait!

Side note: Are you just set on the law courses in general or a specific institute? Any preferences? This might help narrow down what Iíll say later. :)
EDIT (quite a few hours later):
I would like to go to Monash and do Laws/Criminologylike I'm not interested in doing Laws/Arts haha but no strong preferences
Fair enough. Iíll focus on Monash a little then.

First set of questions
How do students get a 90+ ATAR?
This is like asking how long a piece of string is. Some may say itís studying smart, hard work, enjoying your breaks and/or having a life outside high school. Some may give a more technical answer and say an average of X raw SS in all subjects (depending on your subjects). Itís a case by case scenario too. Whatíll get you a 90+ ATAR will differ to how someone else gets it; after all, everyone has different strengths, weaknesses and experiences. Add in a plethora of other factors e.g. marks, exam difficulty, and this gets a lot harder to predict what will or won't get you to that 90+. So, canít really answer this one in any concrete way. Sorry.

How hard is it to get a 94?
Same as above. Harder than a 90+ and statistically more difficult, as youíd imagine, but thatís about all I can say. Impossible though? No, not at all.

What kind of study habits to 90+ students have?
Again, it varies per person. Whatever study habits work best for you is certainly what you should be doing. Otherwise, the main thing I do see a lot from these sorts of students is studying until you have a deeper understanding of the topic, which again, isnít exactly an answer youíre looking for because itís quite abstract.

Is it unrealistic for you to have that ambition?
Nope. Ambition and determination are great motivators. If you do the best you can, no one can argue after that. Youíll never know if you donít try.

Any advice?
We have a bunch of articles detailing how people got 50 raw SSs in subjects and high ATARs, which you can see under the spoilers in the OP of this thread. I'd be focusing on the VCE articles and General articles. We've also had a bunch of threads where people have talked about their tactics to achieve 90+ ATARs, so I'd give it a search.

In terms of my own advice, ensure your health remains first, don't drop everything you love just for this one goal and be disciplined, but more importantly reasonable with yourself. (By this, I mean take breaks where you need to.)

Can you transfer into a law course if you dont get a high enough ATAR?
Already answered by Brenden, but to reiterate, yes! I've seen plenty of people transfer internally (within the one institute e.g. Monash Arts --> Monash Law) and externally (between institutes e.g. Deakin Law --> Monash Law). Just make sure that if you're going via this route, that you do your research beforehand (such as on credit transfer) and ask the appropriate people.

Are there any other pathways?? (I've looked but it's confusing)
Also answered by Brenden already. Basically:
- direct entry
- transfer (internally/ externally)
- bridging courses e.g. Diploma*
- postgrad e.g. JD, Masters, Graduate Diploma*
- TAFE and specialist institutes*
There's also the option to drop or add degrees (i.e. go from single --> double degree and vice versa), provided they exist in the system already. For Monash, you might also be eligible for these pathways, which I think started in 2017 or 2018.

*Do your research for these especially, including calling institutes and attending events e.g. Open Days and asking people. I really don't know much about these. 

Does hard work actually pay off?
Yes usually, but only if you are heading in the direction you deem to be successful (which, again, is abstract). But there's a fine line between hard work, working smartly and overworking yourself. Working hard may not be as effective as working smart, if it's in the wrong direction.

Has anyone here gotten into a law degree with a <90 ATAR?
I have a friend who does Deakin Law. They got a <90 ATAR.

How can I make my dream real?
Keep trying, keep researching, keep studying, keep understanding. Don't stop until you get into law or paramedicine. If not Monash, try another institute. If not undergrad, go postgrad. There's a multitude of ways to get into these courses, so one way or another, you'll have plenty of chances to make it in.
Second set of questions
Whats LSAT? Is that like the bar?
It's an entrance exam and it's usually for postgrad law IIRC. It's run by LSAC and there's 6 chances per year to sit it. There's a fee involved to sit it each time, but if you're on Centrelink, you'll be able to sit it for free twice apparently. More explained here.

Whats IELTS? Whats TOEFL?
These are tests of English competency for students who lived/ studied in countries that teach in non-English languages. This is usually for international students, so, as a presumably Australian citizen (and thus domestic student), you don't have to worry about these.

Can you do a law degree and then Juris Doctor? Whats difference???
Generally, the Juris Doctor (JD) is a postgrad course and is (to my understanding) taken by those who didn't study an undergrad law degree or you studied law in a country other than where you intend to practise law and that law degree is not accepted. So, if my understanding is correct, you can't go from an undergrad law degree to a JD, unless you're moving to a country that doesn't accept Australian law degrees (assuming you study your undergrad here in Aus). You can, however, take a Masters of Law or go on to do a PhD in law instead, if you complete an undergrad law degree.

The difference between the two is the type of study you're doing. Undergrad means you studied it after high school and don't own a degree yet. Postgrad means you've done a degree before and this is effectively more study, sometimes in a different area to your undergrad. There's pros and cons to doing law (and/or paramedicine) as an undergrad or postgrad, so it really depends on you which path you want to take.
Third set of questions
Is a 30 study score average? Is it easy to get a 30 in English?
Pretty much exactly as Brenden said. I'll skip this one.

Is it more realistic to focus on getting a 70? Is my ambition to become a lawyer futile?
Ditto Brenden yet again. Just want to add that it'll only be futile if you give up on this dream entirely. Try your best first and see where this gets you. :)
Phew! That was a long one. Hopefully this kind of answered your questions. Let me know if you need more help and keep those questions rolling here if anyone has any. :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 09:12:02 pm by AngelWings »
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Uni: (Hons)

brenden

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Re: I want to be a lawyer - don't think i can get the ATAR - Advice??
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 01:31:51 pm »
+1
Hey, I'm just going to cherry pick the easy questions if you don't mind, I'm sure others will be along to answer the gritty stuff!

Can you transfer into a law course if you dont get a high enough ATAR?
Yes, you absolutely can, and I think this can be a fair option for students who fall short of getting an offer. If you are strategic about your university choices and treat the first year of university like most people treat year 12, it's very feasible. Often, people treat first year uni like a holiday and don't take their grades seriously, but in my experience, it is straightforward enough to get decent grades at uni if you are hyper-focused on it.

Transferring is definitely a feasible back up.

Are there any other pathways?? (I've looked but it's confusing)
Basically, you've got direct entry after Year 12. Or you start an undergraduate degree then transfer into undergraduate law, or, you get a degree, and end up doing Law at a postgraduate level (or enter into an undergraduate law as a mature age student if a uni accepts you).

Does hard work actually pay off?
Hard work at the wrong things won't. If you want to build big biceps and you work really hard making your legs stronger, the hard work won't pay off.
If you are working at the right things, then, yes, hard work pays off, more often than not. You're early in your VCE journey, it is absolutely possible for you to set yourself up to do well next year.
Can you do a law degree and then Juris Doctor? You can't can you?
I'm not sure if you technically 'can' or not (like, probably), but there would be no point. It's the same qualification. the JD is a postgraduate law degree, the Bachelor of Laws is an undergraduate law degree... you can be a lawyer after either of them.
Is a 30 study score average? Is it easy to get a 30 in English?
Yes, 30 is average, and yes, it will be easy enough for you personally to get a 30 in English, given you have decent writing skills. For others, a 30 in English may be quite difficult. But if you're looking for a 94, you shouldn't care about a 30 in English. A better question is "Is it easy to get a 40 in English", and the answer is "it's kinda hard, but you can do it, and you should try".
Is it more realistic to focus on getting a 70? Is my ambition to become a lawyer futile?
Not futile. Nurse the ambition and let it grow. Work hard and work smart, you can do it.
✌️just do what makes you happy ✌️

JadeRhoden

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Re: I want to be a lawyer - don't think i can get the ATAR - Advice??
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 02:36:40 pm »
+1
Hey Jade! Iím the mod who does a lot of the high school to uni transition stuff (thatís what VTAC is about) and, although I wonít be the best source, I do know a few pathways that might be helpful to you. However, Iím currently a little sparse for time (forgive me, itís my lunch break), so Iíll edit this post later to answer a lot of your questions above. Sorry for the wait!

Side note: Are you just set on the law courses in general or a specific institute? Any preferences? This might help narrow down what Iíll say later. :)

I would like to go to Monash and do Laws/Criminologylike I'm not interested in doing Laws/Arts haha but no strong preferences

Hey, I'm just going to cherry pick the easy questions if you don't mind, I'm sure others will be along to answer the gritty stuff!

Can you transfer into a law course if you dont get a high enough ATAR?
Yes, you absolutely can, and I think this can be a fair option for students who fall short of getting an offer. If you are strategic about your university choices and treat the first year of university like most people treat year 12, it's very feasible. Often, people treat first year uni like a holiday and don't take their grades seriously, but in my experience, it is straightforward enough to get decent grades at uni if you are hyper-focused on it.

Transferring is definitely a feasible back up.

Are there any other pathways?? (I've looked but it's confusing)
Basically, you've got direct entry after Year 12. Or you start an undergraduate degree then transfer into undergraduate law, or, you get a degree, and end up doing Law at a postgraduate level (or enter into an undergraduate law as a mature age student if a uni accepts you).

Does hard work actually pay off?
Hard work at the wrong things won't. If you want to build big biceps and you work really hard making your legs stronger, the hard work won't pay off.
If you are working at the right things, then, yes, hard work pays off, more often than not. You're early in your VCE journey, it is absolutely possible for you to set yourself up to do well next year.
Can you do a law degree and then Juris Doctor? You can't can you?
I'm not sure if you technically 'can' or not (like, probably), but there would be no point. It's the same qualification. the JD is a postgraduate law degree, the Bachelor of Laws is an undergraduate law degree... you can be a lawyer after either of them.
Is a 30 study score average? Is it easy to get a 30 in English?
Yes, 30 is average, and yes, it will be easy enough for you personally to get a 30 in English, given you have decent writing skills. For others, a 30 in English may be quite difficult. But if you're looking for a 94, you shouldn't care about a 30 in English. A better question is "Is it easy to get a 40 in English", and the answer is "it's kinda hard, but you can do it, and you should try".
Is it more realistic to focus on getting a 70? Is my ambition to become a lawyer futile?
Not futile. Nurse the ambition and let it grow. Work hard and work smart, you can do it.

Thank you!!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 02:41:26 pm by JadeRhoden »

AngelWings

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Re: I want to be a lawyer - don't think i can get the ATAR - Advice??
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 09:15:22 pm »
+1
Finally completed the edit to the post above, as promised. Feel free to ask any more questions and do more research.
(Same applies to everyone interested in similar courses.) :)
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