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March 02, 2021, 06:11:21 am

Author Topic: The VCE is biased  (Read 30810 times)  Share 

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sdhains

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2009, 09:50:37 pm »
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english must be a priority! anyone saying otherwise has obviously not considered the wider implications of allowing a system that belittles english as just another subject. I don't want a super nerd sitting behind  a desk telling me to take medication without knowing a single word he has said.

I concur. I think english is very important and the system is fair as it is.

IntoTheNewWorld

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2009, 09:53:04 pm »
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Although I suck at English, I do think it would be better for English to be part of the top 4.

periwinkle

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2009, 09:56:03 pm »
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 I don't think it's fair that english is the only compulsory subject. You either have both [english and a maths/sci subject] or neither.
 It's someone's responsibility to make sure they have good enough english skills for whatever they want to do. If a science student can't write a 500 word abstract, or do a presentation, more fool them [unless their intelligence is so polarised that they're an absolute genius at systematizing but can't write for toffee.]

minilunchbox

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2009, 10:05:25 pm »
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English is actually one of my stronger subjects, but whenever I think about the exam I want to dig a very large and very deep hole and hide there forever and ever. I hate how subjective it can be and how my marks fluctuate every year depending on my teacher and I never really know if I'm actually good at it or not.

English should definitely be in the Top 4 but more schools should offer other options like Literature and English Language. My school only offers mainstream English and I would so rather do Englang because at least Englang won't give me an anxiety attack every time I think about it.
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xXNovaxX

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2009, 10:35:47 pm »
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it should still be compulsory... just not in the top 4
we covered the implications of this already. If it was compulsory but not in the top 4, people wouldn't give a heck about it, not try very hard, and still reap the awards of a high ENTER without basic skills in LANGUAGE used across the world aka English.

xXNovaxX

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2009, 10:38:38 pm »
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English is actually one of my stronger subjects, but whenever I think about the exam I want to dig a very large and very deep hole and hide there forever and ever. I hate how subjective it can be and how my marks fluctuate every year depending on my teacher and I never really know if I'm actually good at it or not.

English should definitely be in the Top 4 but more schools should offer other options like Literature and English Language. My school only offers mainstream English and I would so rather do Englang because at least Englang won't give me an anxiety attack every time I think about it.
And also don't forget, we have ESL!!!! You would not believe how much fair the system is because of it. It really makes a tremendous difference to migrants arriving here, and better still it doesn't advantage ESL students over mainstream, but still allows them to demonstrate the skills/knolwedge needed.

shinny

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2009, 10:39:24 pm »
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it should still be compulsory... just not in the top 4
we covered the implications of this already. If it was compulsory but not in the top 4, people wouldn't give a heck about it, not try very hard, and still reap the awards of a high ENTER without basic skills in LANGUAGE used across the world aka English.

Then just put English pre-reqs suited to the course at hand. However, I still agree with requiring English in the top 4 anyway, for the reason that I stated a bit back about it being one of the few actual 'non-mechanical' thinking subjects. By forcing people to do it, you're avoiding people relying extensively on either rote learning skills, or maths skills etc.
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doboman

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2009, 10:46:38 pm »
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In addition to what shinny said, and in contrast to what ryley believes, removing english from you top 4 will actually do very little to your ENTER. People forget that their ENTER is actually a rank. There are plenty of other students out there who get 45+ in their math/science subjects- and as a result- your rank, when compared to them, will change very little. The system is fair as is.
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xXNovaxX

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2009, 10:55:57 pm »
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it should still be compulsory... just not in the top 4
we covered the implications of this already. If it was compulsory but not in the top 4, people wouldn't give a heck about it, not try very hard, and still reap the awards of a high ENTER without basic skills in LANGUAGE used across the world aka English.

Then just put English pre-reqs suited to the course at hand. However, I still agree with requiring English in the top 4 anyway, for the reason that I stated a bit back about it being one of the few actual 'non-mechanical' thinking subjects. By forcing people to do it, you're avoiding people relying extensively on either rote learning skills, or maths skills etc.
....i had that after thought regarding that xD.

ryley

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2009, 11:13:23 pm »
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If english wasn't a certain top 4 subject, I still don't think people would neglect it completely as it still a requirement for so many uni courses, so that would act as the predominant motivator to study instead of knowing it has to be in the top 4. If students were seen to be neglecting english, uni's could always just raise their minimum english prerequisites. I can't believe how many people say to me "Oh, english has to be in the top 4, otherwise people will bludge, get a 30 and not be able to speak conversational english or write enough to fill a birthday card", which is just bullshit.

@hard, Can you really say the system would treat english as just another subject if its top 4 status was revoked, surely through it being compulsory and a nearly universal uni requirement it still has enough importance to avoid being treated as another subject. And as for the super nerd behind the desk, surely he would still understand himself, but him lacking the communication skills required to express himself effectively is not something that can be attributed to a poor performnce in VCE english.

I completely understand why english is compulsory, but I still have no idea why it has to be in the top 4.

@doboman, Yes, I do understand how the ranking process works, and I know there is no way changing things would double my enter (I would still get dominated by the SUPER maths-science-illiterate students), I was exaggerating, but thanks anyway for pointing out the change would not be so great.
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QuantumJG

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #130 on: October 07, 2009, 12:01:31 am »
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get a 30 and not be able to speak conversational english or write enough to fill a birthday card", which is just bullshit.


Hey I got a 30 in english and I can write enough to fill a birthday card.

Something that really depressed me in VCE was that I put a lot of time into chemistry and my scaled 41.79 contributed 4.17 points to my aggregate (It would have made barely any difference if I got a 25 raw in chemistry or the equivalence 2.9 added to my aggregate).




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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #131 on: October 07, 2009, 01:48:30 am »
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The stupidest thing about a 25 or 30 in English as a prerequisite is that study scores are always relative. You can have a super smart cohort and there will always be a percentage that below these study scores. It is unfair.

periwinkle

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Re: The VCE is biased
« Reply #132 on: October 07, 2009, 03:33:38 am »
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I recall this post by [former member] Brendan:

"I'm studying law and you would think that the skills you learn in VCE English would be useful, but think again. The stuff that you need, they don't teach you, and the stuff that they do teach, you don't really need. I think one of the most important English skills needed in a career in law (and probably just about any other profession) is a good grounding in grammar. Yet, the kind of teaching i received in grammar through my whole 13 years in schooling have been inadequate or non-existent. Another thing, that VCE English claims to teach students is "critical thinking skills". Yet, I think VCE English fails in that goal as well. Take for example, "language analysis". What good is being able to pick out persuasive techniques and their intended effect, if you can't assess their logical validity? If you look at "appeal to history" or "appeal to tradition", you would probably be taught examples of it being used, and its intended effect, but I doubt very much that you would have been taught that in many cases it is used in a logically fallacious manner - i.e. it is logically invalid."
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,28.75.html


it should still be compulsory... just not in the top 4
we covered the implications of this already. If it was compulsory but not in the top 4, people wouldn't give a heck about it, not try very hard, and still reap the awards of a high ENTER without basic skills in LANGUAGE used across the world aka English.
It could then be made compulsory to attain a particular percentage score, irrespective of SS.
  But I'd only advocate that for the sort of [hypothetical] generalist subject described here by Coblin [from the same thread as Brendan's post].
   "a broad subject which is a package of English, basic logical principles extracted from economics, and rudimentary mathematical skills."