ATAR Notes: Forum

General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: whys on March 12, 2020, 03:21:45 pm

Title: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on March 12, 2020, 03:21:45 pm
I'm sure all of you guys are well versed with the new coronavirus. It has now been declared a global pandemic, and things have gotten out of hand with the public panic-buying canned goods and other non-perishable items, toilet paper and hand sanitisers. It takes more than a year to make an effective and safe vaccine that has been sufficiently tested clinically, so it's not something we can depend on for now.

There is no doubt that the economy is already facing negative effects. Now, it is not a matter of if, but when schools will be shut down across the state/country. Working parents will have children at home to look after. VCE students' learning will be disrupted. A school lockdown may be more likely during the Easter holidays, where it will be easier for them to add an extra 2 weeks of holidays to the existing school holidays. However, it is unpredictable when they will call on such drastic measures, as the extent of community cases are very difficult to predict when majority of people with the coronavirus are probably wandering around unaware that they have it.

The issue with the virus is that although its fatality is extremely low and is more likely to affect the elderly, it can very easily infect thousands. With symptoms like the cold and fever in mild cases (which make up the majority of cases) coinciding with Australia's flu season, it is extremely difficult to deduce if you have the virus or if it's just the flu. Although most people will not develop severe respiratory problems or die (from the information we have now), they could very easily infect others that are more susceptible to the fatal consequences of this newly discovered virus. The new virus spreads much more readily than the one that caused severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS (also a coronavirus), and has infected more than ten times the number of people who contracted SARS. It had been reiterated many times that the highly contagious nature of COVID-19 makes it very easy to spread, so it will be very difficult to contain unless mandatory testing is set in place.

My question is, when schools do shut down, what is the VCAA going to do? They say they have plans to compensate, but I wonder what they are. Surely the only thing they can do is push the exams back further, let's say in December? Will they actually do anything? And how badly would schools be affected by this? I'd like to hear your thoughts on all this!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on March 12, 2020, 03:29:22 pm
I do think they will add on the extra two weeks for the school holidays, however I don't know if it will do much. I honestly have no idea what VCAA will do, however, I do believe that there may be some extra compensation for all year 12 in the form SEAS. Maybe VTAC will give extra points as a boost as everyone will be highly affected, this may be a new category for 2020 only.   

I don't believe that the exams will be pushed back till December unless it is a worse case scenario, as the WHO and the Australian government believe that the COVID-19 will settle down in 6-9 months time. 
The one thing I am curious about is how closed schools are going to continue teaching VCE students. They may have to result to online teaching as universities are doing at the moment.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this unfolds.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on March 12, 2020, 03:48:45 pm
The thing is, if they give everyone SEAS, that kind of destroys the whole point of SEAS. It would be the same if everyone had SEAS or no one had SEAS, because you're just adding the same amount of points to everyone's ATARs. I guess I see how it could help fulfil a university requirement for a certain ATAR, but instead they could also lower uni cut-offs, but I can see how that can sort of disrupt everything.

I know my school will be having conferences that you have to attend (they're just calls that have everyone in the class in them). We've done this many times before. We call it DDD (digital delivery day) and do it once a term. It's basically video calls for each subject where the teacher teaches like normal and shares their screen so we can see the powerpoint/other things they use. Our school is also very reliant on technology so I'm sure we won't be as affected as other schools who are doing it for the first time. The only consequence is that learning from home can be very unproductive as no one is motivated to learn, which can be seen in all previous DD days where most people don't do work if it's asynchronous and just do the work later on, whenever they feel like it.

I wonder how this will all turn out in the end.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on March 12, 2020, 04:56:02 pm

I don't believe that the exams will be pushed back till December unless it is a worse case scenario, as the WHO and the Australian government believe that the COVID-19 will settle down in 6-9 months time. 
The one thing I am curious about is how closed schools are going to continue teaching VCE students. They may have to result to online teaching as universities are doing at the moment.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this unfolds.

I really hope if schools do shut down, then they compensate us for the time we have lost and push back exams. Otherwise it would be really unfair to schools and students who don't have any online system in place ( like mine and the majority  :P)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: tiredandstressed on March 12, 2020, 05:50:18 pm
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/about/novel-coronavirus

A confirmed case at Latrobe University with many students saying Latrobe has not done much action concerning the confirmed case

What are everyone's thoughts, how will tertiary education be affected?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on March 12, 2020, 06:37:15 pm
Everything is just speculation at this point but I do think that any sort of "compensation"by VCAA won't be enough to make for the differences in how a certain school responds to the changes. Like Ionic has said, obviously, some schools would easily be able to provide online resources and teaching through that but others may not have those facilities.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Aaron on March 12, 2020, 06:44:18 pm
As an eLearning Leader and teacher, now is my "prime time" for obvious reasons (if a shutdown were to happen)......... it is a real possibility and all students should prepare for this scenario in the event it does happen. My school is making plans already and yours probably are too. It is a very unique situation we are facing at the moment where there is a real risk of closure for an unknown period of time.... important to note that no response is going to be perfect.

Digital learning tools are your best friend when it comes to home study... I know nothing makes up for the lack of face-to-face teacher instruction and guidance but again, nothing is perfect. Edrolo, Google Classroom and Microsoft Teams (for teachers to use with students) etc..... every tool used to support learning is critical at a time like this
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 12, 2020, 07:41:44 pm
What are everyone's thoughts, how will tertiary education be affected?
I'd imagine at my uni that everyone would just swap to online only. There already are online resources available for a bunch of courses (although I'm not sure how many) because of all the students who were stuck in china for the start of the year. We've been getting constant updates from uni and have just had the first case confirmed in the act this morning, but haven't heard anything definitively about the plans for if there's a shutdown - hand sanitiser has appeared all over campus although it seems to be being used vary sparingly at the moment haha
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: strawberries on March 17, 2020, 02:46:46 pm
On Friday at 4:58pm, my uni announced they'd cancel all events, public lectures, concerts, arts events/rehearsals and sports games and trainings, basically anything deemed 'non-essential' (i.e. anything except class) until late June.

This was a blow to many of us who are in leadership positions and clubs and societies, including myself, who had planned so many events (now what do I have to live for?? lol)...but I understand the public health concern. Living in a residence with 500+ people is also an issue, I'm glad I'm healthy and not worried but others may not be so lucky. Over the past few days, lecturers and admin have announced classes going online from this week. This is not a huge deal for me as an arts student, but I can see it may be hard to learn for students in other faculties who may do labs and stuff. Many academics are already working from home.Students currently on exchange overseas are being urged to come back home. Students who live on res may feel safer to go back home and the uni is providing bursaries.

I think online classes are the best option with take-home exams. I hate take-home exams but this is the best we can do.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: iam_real_don on March 17, 2020, 06:18:55 pm
Well looking at a High School Education perspective in NSW, New South Wales Education Standards Authority (NESA) has announced schools around NSW wouldn't be closed yet unless if a student had COVID-19. It would be closed for a day, the school would be quarantined and students return the next day, this has already happened with 3-6 schools. The reason for this is to make sure year 12 preparing for the HSC are diminished from their chances of getting a good ATAR. There have also been some talks on extended another 2 weeks from the Easter break if the COVID-19 situation gets worse. Currently, my school are trailing software systems so that we video conference classes from home, applications such as Zoom and Microsoft Teams are now being tested. I resume that last thing NESA would have is a State-Wide All Schools closure because with that the virus could still spread due to students from different schools can mingle together when school is closed. If Australia goes full lockdown (which is very likely on where we are heading) I resume NESA have no option but to close schools as well which is likely to occur, looking to stop the spread of the virus. HSC could get moved forward. Giving extra ATAR points are dependable, due to all schools facing this issue, so school, in reality, is disadvantaged, therefore no ATAR points are needed. Its either All schools closure or all schools running, there is no last man standing. The last thing we want is a virus hindering us to get a good ATAR with the globe in a pandemic state (but it isn't worse as the Spanish Flu or Ebola), NESA encourages us to remain calm and they will be safety restrictions in place to stop the spread and to continue schooling. Education and lives are at stake here (also my ATAR)         
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: laura_ on March 17, 2020, 10:43:32 pm
I know that LaTrobe and Swinbourne (two Victorian universities) have paused classes this week. Anyone attending a uni where things like that are happening have thoughts?

It really seems to feel like there is no "right" decision to be made, and that every option has disadvantages.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on March 17, 2020, 11:33:47 pm
I agree with laura, every choice has its disadvantages. I understand why the government hasnít closed down schools. Allowing the population to adjust is really important at a time when everything so unexpected, so their decision to wait isnít a decision I disagree with. However it also feels like the longer schools and other places where a large group of people meet and converse are open, the more steeper the curve will become, and the harder it will be to control it. Many health professionals who are now on the frontline treating those diagnosed with the coronavirus are a vital part of the health system, and many of them will have to stay home to look after young children if schools are on lock down, which decreases hospital efficiency (which is already compromised). We already know the shortage of coronavirus testing kits and beds in hospitals cannot accomodate people if there is a sharp incline in cases, which calls for immediate action to broaden the curve to allow the health system to operate efficiently at all times. Thereís so much to weigh in, and nothing is clear right now. (I still donít understand why Australia doesnít have stricter border control, but oh well).

I guess thatís the nature of the situation - no one is ever really prepared for such situations. Could anyone predict that in the future, there would be a period of time where thereís nothing on supermarket shelves? Perhaps itís due to selfishness and the mediaís overemphasis on panic-buying, but such outcomes werenít predictable and never will be.

I hope our healthcare system (and those of other countries) will be able to manage and cope in the wake of this virus for as long as it takes for a successful vaccine to arrive.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: SlowandSteady on March 20, 2020, 05:47:25 pm
NAPLAN has been cancelled for this year :o
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on March 20, 2020, 06:46:32 pm
NAPLAN has been cancelled for this year :o
My younger self would have been so happy over that.....

On another note, will the GAT be canceled? That is technically a mass gathering..
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Aaron on March 20, 2020, 08:38:41 pm
NAPLAN has been cancelled for this year :o

fyi, it's not only the students that are happy. ;)

Quote
On another note, will the GAT be canceled? That is technically a mass gathering..
Can be done if split into classrooms. At the moment my school has cancelled everything (meaning gatherings, excursions etc) up until end of May.... but if the NAPLAN has been cancelled I don't like how this looks for the GAT in its current date. They will still need to do it as they use it as a basis for derived score and given "no student will be disadvantaged" it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 21, 2020, 04:58:38 pm
So as a result of Covid-19, my workplace has been closed as per the local governments directive. All staff were informed the day that the centre was to close which i find ridiculous - Thursday we were joking about being told to social distance (1.5m) from students and how that meant we had to let the kids that couldn't swim drown and the next day at midday "The local government is shutting the centre at 5 pm today"
Which is irritating cause now i, amongst about 50 others have no income and we were talking about the centre not closing because swimming lessons are classified as an 'essential service' like could they not just close the pool to the general public and only allow swimming lessons to run? Or at least give us notice because i know some ladies who's partners are unemployed and they rely on that income and then BAM you have 5 hours to figure out how you are going to pay for food and bills.

And out of all the teachers, I'm the lucky one.  >:(

So heres my question:

should i not get new work and go ham on school

OR

should i get a new job with (potentially) same or less hours than before?

______________________________

What is everyone's schools doing in response to the virus? Have you or are you transitioning to online learning yet and what are you using?

My school has said that they don't know when the school will close (like most) but are beginning to discuss what will happen if it does. For Maths, we are using google hangouts video calling to ask our teachers questions and for legal we are just going to be following lesson plans and send our teacher an email if we are unsure about anything. Online learning hasn't been discussed for my other subjects though.
Call me selfish but tbh, i don't want my school to close because school is a great getaway from home and online learning will most likely be difficult in the sense of not having the teacher right there
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on March 21, 2020, 06:12:19 pm
UPDATE
The government will increase the school holidays by 2 days in order for teachers to plan the course of online teaching and learning. School holidays will now be extended by 1 day at the start and 1 day at the end. There is still no talk about the complete closure of all schools anywhere in Australia despite the continuous escalation of the virus.

My school has said that they don't know when the school will close (like most) but are beginning to discuss what will happen if it does.
Call me selfish but tbh, i don't want my school to close because school is a great getaway from home and online learning will most likely be difficult in the sense of not having the teacher right there
I also agree. I don't want schools to close, but I understand the future need to activate level 3 or 4 lockdown throughout the country, and their reasoning for prolonging school closure despite the negative effects we are already seeing. Many students are now staying at home anyway, with the exception of the majority of VCE students. Teachers are also increasingly worried about their health, and rightfully so. I wouldn't want to be surrounded by a bunch of young kids coughing and sneezing all over me... Online learning really isn't a substitute for in-class teaching but there is nothing else we can do.

I'm also really curious to know if the GAT will also be cancelled, similar to NAPLAN, even though it serves a more important function for students when compared to NAPLAN (which is almost useless since it isn't a good indicator of school performance anyway).
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 21, 2020, 06:45:59 pm

So heres my question:

should i not get new work and go ham on school

OR

should i get a new job with (potentially) same or less hours than before?

What is everyone's schools doing in response to the virus? Have you or are you transitioning to online learning yet and what are you using?

My school has said that they don't know when the school will close (like most) but are beginning to discuss what will happen if it does. For Maths, we are using google hangouts video.

Definitely get new work if income is a major burden. Considering you have access to internet, there's plenty of online jobs (keep in mind that by law, income received through Paypal needs to be included on one's tax return). If you're not interested in filling out contracts, the content creation market is somewhere to explore. Hourwise, take advantage of this situation (I know the irony of this) and structure your day if possible, in allocating periods where you strictly complete study and potentially work.

My school is literally doing what Virtual School Victoria (Distance Ed) does but of course with zero experience which is slightly concerning.


Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 21, 2020, 07:06:03 pm
As an eLearning Leader and teacher, now is my "prime time" for obvious reasons (if a shutdown were to happen)......... it is a real possibility and all students should prepare for this scenario in the event it does happen. My school is making plans already and yours probably are too. It is a very unique situation we are facing at the moment where there is a real risk of closure for an unknown period of time.... important to note that no response is going to be perfect.

As a teacher, what are your thoughts on the possibility of Year 13 and the likelihood of subsidies being granted to students who possibly can't afford another investment-heavy year?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Aaron on March 21, 2020, 07:14:36 pm
Quote from: brothanathan
As a teacher, what are your thoughts on the possibility of Year 13 and the likelihood of subsidies being granted to students who possibly can't afford another investment-heavy year?
Not sure, haven't heard about this or what you're referring to. Feel free to link if you'd like.
My understanding is that for Yr 12's the year continues and VCAA will provide additional supports to ensure nobody is disadvantaged.

From a uni perspective, it's interesting because you pay for tuition and if you aren't getting that face-to-face time it would warrant a case for reimbursement or at least reduction in fees. I suppose that'd be up to the unis to decide, though.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 21, 2020, 07:19:34 pm
Not sure, haven't heard about this or what you're referring to. Feel free to link if you'd like.

We've seen the UK goverment cancel A-level and GCSE exams only hours ago and that's more than a minor alarm.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 21, 2020, 07:24:30 pm
Definitely get new work if income is a major burden. Considering you have access to internet, there's plenty of online jobs (keep in mind that by law, income received through Paypal needs to be included on one's tax return). If you're not interested in filling out contracts, the content creation market is somewhere to explore. Hourwise, take advantage of this situation (I know the irony of this) and structure your day if possible, in allocating periods where you strictly complete study and potentially work.

My school is literally doing what Virtual School Victoria (Distance Ed) does but of course with zero experience which is slightly concerning.

In the ideal coronavirus free world. I'd have been looking at buying a car in the near future which in light of recent events won't be happening if my phone bill etc is eating into my savings over the next 2 - 7 months and as my work has closed for an unspecified amount of time it could be open in 2 months (not much need for a new job in a small amount of time) or 7 months (need for a job to afford a car and moving out) so the uncertainty of it all is irritating

We've seen the UK goverment cancel A-level and GCSE exams only hours ago and that's more than a minor alarm.

Oh W O W
IMO cause Australia is an island and we are relatively far away from Europe, unless it gets really really bad here the government won't do anything drastic.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 21, 2020, 07:29:51 pm
Oh W O W
IMO cause Australia is an island and we are relatively far away from Europe, unless it gets really really bad here the government won't do anything drastic.

Some UK schools are EVEN looking to introduce ungraded assessments, and that's something that IMO looks very unlikely to proceed.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 21, 2020, 07:55:32 pm
@J_Rho lots of the supermarkets are looking to hire casuals at the moment because of how hectic it's been. If you're wanting to get another job I'd just walk in and tell them you've lost your job because of the pandemic, have heard they're looking for staff, and ask how to go about applying (I suggest walking in rather than looking online because from what I hear they're doing a fair bit of their hiring through friends and family of existing staff).
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Specialist_maths on March 21, 2020, 07:57:03 pm
As a teacher, what are your thoughts on the possibility of Year 13 and the likelihood of subsidies being granted to students who possibly can't afford another investment-heavy year?
If you're referring to current Year 12 students repeating Year 12 in 2021, I would consider that very unlikely (at this point in time). Schools will be getting another cohort of Prep students next year and won't have the space to support an extra cohort. While we've just finished a 'half-cohort' in Qld (Seniors of 2019), we certainly couldn't deal with a 'double'-cohort from 2021-2032.

Current Year 12 students in Queensland should expect the External Exams to go ahead and ATARs to be issued. With many schools about to complete IA2 before Easter, 50% of Year 12 assessment items will soon be done with scores to be 'confirmed' in April. Although teaching and learning over the next 6 months may be atypical - it'll be much the same everywhere, so rankings can still be reliably done at the end of year. Universities will still need a cohort of students for financial reasons - as will the general workforce.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 21, 2020, 08:00:26 pm
@J_Rho lots of the supermarkets are looking to hire casuals at the moment because of how hectic it's been. If you're wanting to get another job I'd just walk in and tell them you've lost your job because of the pandemic, have heard they're looking for staff, and ask how to go about applying (I suggest walking in rather than looking online because from what I hear they're doing a fair bit of their hiring through friends and family of existing staff).
yeah the local Woolies is hiring but idk how long until the pool opens again like i feel like a new job just for 1 - 2 moths work isnt necessary but if its up to 7 months then i would need a job
and tbh i love swim teaching and the idea of working as at Woolies sounds awfully boring, but hey money is money I'll probably hand in my resume tomorrow
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on March 21, 2020, 08:42:16 pm
Going to be really interesting to see what happens to VCE students this year. I do really sympathise for those in year 12 right now, supposedly for many of you this would be "the most important year" of your education up to this point of your lives and having all this uncertainty must be really distracting and taxing.

I think it would be unlikely that this year would just be scrapped and students would need to finish year 12 in 2021 it would be really difficult for universities to basically have 1 full year of not producing a lot of students. I.e. Having no year 12 graduates this year would result in impact  3-6 years down the line when those students could be graduating- especially in those fields that having a university degree is necessary such as health.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 21, 2020, 08:56:58 pm
I sympathise with 2020 peers that have just gone through bushfires and are facing this added calamity. We'll grow stronger from this!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 21, 2020, 09:11:45 pm
2020's a bit fucked hey?
Interesting to see where we end up in 6 - 12 months
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on March 21, 2020, 09:29:32 pm
Going to be really interesting to see what happens to VCE students this year. I do really sympathise for those in year 12 right now, supposedly for many of you this would be "the most important year" of your education up to this point of your lives and having all this uncertainty must be really distracting and taxing.

100%. Im struggling so much with the feeling of not knowing whats going to happen next. I barely did any school work the last week because I was so distracted, but all the media news and stuff is really scaring me atm. Not to mention, I've also had some personal issues/worries arise, so my heads pretty much in a twirl right now. I managed to do some work today, but the fact that I didnt for most of last week was not good - 2 SACs next week...

Class of 2020, we will get through this.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Bri MT on March 22, 2020, 11:19:57 am
yeah the local Woolies is hiring but idk how long until the pool opens again like i feel like a new job just for 1 - 2 moths work isnt necessary but if its up to 7 months then i would need a job
and tbh i love swim teaching and the idea of working as at Woolies sounds awfully boring, but hey money is money I'll probably hand in my resume tomorrow

I would be very surprised if this is all over in 1-2 months
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on March 22, 2020, 01:54:22 pm
I would be very surprised if this is all over in 1-2 months

Apparently we're still in the early stages of this global crisis, so i would be very surprised if it's over in a couple of months.   

Also apparently all schools are set to shut on Tuesday a day before my English sac ...yay?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on March 22, 2020, 02:06:20 pm
Also apparently all schools are set to shut on Tuesday a day before my English sac

Yep... yay for studying for the bio SAC on Wednesday! We need to wait for the meeting to occur and the govt to release a statement on what is going to happen. Apparently VIC and NSW will close down schools + non-essentials (e.g. restaurants) if the federal govt doesn't agree with them anyways, but they are bringing it up in the hopes that the whole of Australia will go into similar lockdown. This is imperative. We have reached 1k cases, and this is a virus. Its spread will not stop. We have to slow it down while we can so the health system is not over-burdened, especially with the shortage of face masks and coronavirus testing kits. We do not want to turn into Italy.

Govt will also be releasing a 66 billion stimulus package, equivalent to 9% of our GDP.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 22, 2020, 02:18:38 pm
^NSW have said they'll be shutting down non essential services over the next two days, however they're not including schools in that just yet. I suspect this means the ACT will be shutting down too given our chief minister just said that it wouldn't make sense to arbitrarily change things at the border.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: angrybiscuit on March 22, 2020, 03:25:43 pm
Schools closing down (for what I believe would be a substantial length of time) would be detrimental to schools like mine where live streams and live classes are ruled out as an option. That means we basically have to learn based off of slides and notes and learn pretty much independently. Yes we can ask questions via email but it can't compete to face-to-face interactions with the teacher. I'm lucky I'm doing subjects that won't be too affected by a closure but what about those who are doing folio subjects and VET?

I know that a school closure is required given how quickly this crisis is growing, but it won't be ideal to Year 12 students and schools with inadequate resources like mine.  :-\
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: sarascully on March 22, 2020, 03:30:42 pm
arghh my school is literally the embodiment of the 'i'm not like most girls' phenomenon as majority of independent/private schools have already closed whereas my school has stated that they won't shut down unless they're issued a directive from the government !!! luckily my global 3/4 sac was postponed until next term... but i still have 3 other sacs on this week :(( all this uncertainty is stressing me out !
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Snow Leopard on March 22, 2020, 04:25:37 pm
Schools closing down (for what I believe would be a substantial length of time) would be detrimental to schools like mine where live streams and live classes are ruled out as an option. That means we basically have to learn based off of slides and notes and learn pretty much independently. Yes we can ask questions via email but it can't compete to face-to-face interactions with the teacher. I'm lucky I'm doing subjects that won't be too affected by a closure but what about those who are doing folio subjects and VET?

I know that a school closure is required given how quickly this crisis is growing, but it won't be ideal to Year 12 students and schools with inadequate resources like mine.  :-\
That's the exact same situation at my school!
For this reason, I believe that since ALL schools in Vic are gonna close on Tuesday, that SEAS should still only be granted to people who actually meet the original criteria.

Yes, everyone will be impacted by schools closing including those that go to selective schools/ good schools etc. But the disadvantaged kids/schools are going to be hit the hardest since resources such as video lessons just won't be available to them, meaning that they're the one's that are really gonna need SEAS. For instance, our chem teachers have fought for a month free trial of a tutoring company that offer video explanations. But if schools are shut for longer than a month, we're most likely gonna have to rely solely on ppts and self-teaching ourselves. Unlike those from decent schools that can probably afford to pay for some form of online tutoring or additional help.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 22, 2020, 04:48:39 pm
Mentally lost and emotionally ambiguous ATM.. so SACs are postponed for ALL schools??? (defo not complaining)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on March 22, 2020, 05:03:47 pm
arghh my school is literally the embodiment of the 'i'm not like most girls' phenomenon as majority of independent/private schools have already closed whereas my school has stated that they won't shut down unless they're issued a directive from the government !!! luckily my global 3/4 sac was postponed until next term... but i still have 3 other sacs on this week :(( all this uncertainty is stressing me out !

don't take my word for it, but you only have school tomorrow, and then no school on Tuesday.
As Daniel Andrews has mentioned on his twitter page: https://twitter.com/DanielAndrewsMP/status/1241578357537386496/photo/1

If you click on the image of the media release, it displays his plans to control the virus in Victoria.

Also, Andrews states that he plans on bringing school holidays forward to Tuesday. From my understanding, that means, that no schools will be teaching anything to their students after Tuesday, even over online sessions...? I only say this because he specifically mentioned school holidays.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 22, 2020, 05:53:24 pm
don't take my word for it, but you only have school tomorrow, and then no school on Tuesday.
As Daniel Andrews has mentioned on his twitter page: https://twitter.com/DanielAndrewsMP/status/1241578357537386496/photo/1

If you click on the image of the media release, it displays his plans to control the virus in Victoria.

Also, Andrews states that he plans on bringing school holidays forward to Tuesday. From my understanding, that means, that no schools will be teaching anything to their students after Tuesday, even over online sessions...? I only say this because he specifically mentioned school holidays.

Yeah from my understanding bringing the school holidays forward eliminates the pressure on teachers to be teaching online by Tuesday... I was supposed to have a legal sac and  a bio sac on Tuesday  (the bio one is the one ive been waiting to do since week 2 but my schools fked me around a bit)  BIG RIP
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on March 22, 2020, 06:54:46 pm
Yeah from my understanding bringing the school holidays forward eliminates the pressure on teachers to be teaching online by Tuesday... I was supposed to have a legal sac and  a bio sac on Tuesday  (the bio one is the one ive been waiting to do since week 2 but my schools fked me around a bit)  BIG RIP

rip. maybe if your daring enough u could try and schedule it for tomorrow?

honestly, though, I have a feeling sac's will be disregarded at some point later on in the year
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on March 22, 2020, 09:42:28 pm
Guys I am very unfamiliar with online learning and also very bad with time management so idk how I am gonna cope  :( :( :(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: laura_ on March 23, 2020, 01:18:54 pm
The uncertainty is crazy frustrating. Our school told us last week that today was going to be a day off for teachers to do some "online learning" training, so I guess that means that I'm done for the term... I highly doubt we'll be back on the school premise doing classes in three weeks, even though that's what our teachers are saying...

Guys I am very unfamiliar with online learning and also very bad with time management so idk how I am gonna cope  :( :( :(
I know what you mean! Time management and accountability can be difficult, but you might find that you enjoy a self-directed (ish) style of learning. Will you have some form of contact with your teachers?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 23, 2020, 01:35:28 pm
Guys I am very unfamiliar with online learning and also very bad with time management so idk how I am gonna cope  :( :( :(
Just made this so hopefully some other people may have suggestions to help you!

The uncertainty is crazy frustrating. Our school told us last week that today was going to be a day off for teachers to do some "online learning" training, so I guess that means that I'm done for the term... I highly doubt we'll be back on the school premise doing classes in three weeks, even though that's what our teachers are saying...
We had a lot of uncertainty for a week or two whilst uni decided what to do (and changed their minds three hundred times). Would hate to have to deal with that over the holidays as well. I would just get all homework etc done as soon as you can so that you can just forget about school for a bit and not need to deal with the differences you'll get if its face to face/online until you actually have to go back.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: MoonChild1234 on March 23, 2020, 02:10:56 pm
i think its very likely school won't reopen at the start of term 2, and although my school does have good procedures for online learning, i'm just so confused on how we are going to be doing sacs and stuff. surely they won't make us do them at home?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 23, 2020, 02:24:34 pm
i think its very likely school won't reopen at the start of term 2, and although my school does have good procedures for online learning, i'm just so confused on how we are going to be doing sacs and stuff. surely they won't make us do them at home?
A fair few sac type assessments are done at home during uni so it is possible. The VCAA rules around sac assessment could be adaptable to online sacs.

Spoiler
1.1 School-assessed Coursework
Teachers must develop courses that include appropriate learning activities to enable students to demonstrate achievement of outcomes. Undue assistance should not be provided to students while undertaking assessment tasks.

Students should be clearly informed of the timelines and the conditions under which assessment tasks are to be conducted, including whether any resources are permitted.

Work completed outside class
Most work for the assessment of unit outcomes and School-assessed Coursework will be completed in class; however, this does not preclude normal teacher expectations for students to complete research and learning activities that contribute to gaining key knowledge and skills outside of class time.

Additional work and study undertaken outside of class time will be required as part of the student’s regular learning program. The setting and marking of work with a formative focus provides students with the opportunity to develop their knowledge and skills, and for teachers to provide diagnostic feedback. A task for the assessment of unit outcomes may require preliminary preparation and activities associated with the task (for example, gathering necessary research data). The amount of work to be completed as
homework is decided by the study teacher, taking into account the nature, scope and purpose of the task. Students should be advised just before beginning the task that some information or data might be collected outside the classroom.

For School-assessed Coursework undertaken outside of class time, teachers must monitor and record each student’s progress through to completion. This requires regular sightings of the work by the teacher and the keeping of records in the Authentication Record for School-based Assessment form.
The ways I can see this working would be having online tests and essentially making them open book, or for tasks that are not in a test format like posters and similar, requiring regular drafts/updates be sent as work is done.

It's obviously a massive change, however sacs are only used for ranking within cohorts so as long as everything is the same for your cohort (typically your school) and you're able to rank students on that basis, it shouldn't affect anything too much.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 23, 2020, 03:49:15 pm
That's interesting, some teachers suspect that our final results will be indicative of our internal rankings.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Jimmmy on March 23, 2020, 03:51:41 pm
No clue how likely this is, or how the majority would feel, but what are the chances VCAA dumps the internal rankings system and makes the final exam 100%?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 23, 2020, 03:55:29 pm
No clue how likely this is, or how the majority would feel, but what are the chances VCAA dumps the internal rankings system and makes the final exam 100%?

Sorta like how the HSC was run in Victoria years ago.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Jimmmy on March 23, 2020, 03:58:31 pm
Sorta like how the HSC was run in Victoria years ago.
Yep, used to be like that in all states 30-40 years ago.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 23, 2020, 04:01:50 pm
No clue how likely this is, or how the majority would feel, but what are the chances VCAA dumps the internal rankings system and makes the final exam 100%?
I reckon that would face more public resistance & heaps more stress on year 12s than doing some sort of internal assessment, in whatever form that may be, so I don't think it'd be a good move.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Jimmmy on March 23, 2020, 04:04:39 pm
I reckon that would face more public resistance & heaps more stress on year 12s than doing some sort of internal assessment, in whatever form that may be, so I don't think it'd be a good move.
Definitely don't think it's a good move, but it's been done before and we all know what VCAA is like...
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 23, 2020, 04:27:19 pm
What are everyone's perspectives on remote learning and when it get s to that how are you planning to keep motivated and if you've thought about it how are you going to tackle your subjects? Will you be doing anything differently?

I personally am planning, for each subject, to email my teachers that the end of each week with any non-urget questions about the subject rather than emailing/messaging them every time i have a question. I also feel like my learning methods will change as a result of not physically sitting in the classroom and I can imagine it may be easier to stay on topic as I won't have friends right next to me to chat with (although my friends and I have set up discord chats for each of our classes but thats a lot easier to turn of than really like haha) however I do beleive it may be harder to keep motivated but we will see!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 23, 2020, 05:32:47 pm
I would hope that if VCE exams were to be cancelled, you'd know this by the start of term 2 (or cancellation of term 2). If they're cancelled (and I hope for your sakes that they're not), I wouldn't be too surprised to see a big increase in the alternative entry options offered by uni.

Logistically it'd be a nightmare to cancel year 12 - how do schools (many of which are already bursting at the seams) cope with an extra year of students? How do unis cope with losing almost an entire year of students (imagine graduation ceremonies in four years time haha).


I do agree with you about how rural schools will be far more disadvantaged by this. However, I think that with measures like accounting for whether people have wifi at home, and existing measures like location disadvantage & education level of parents, I don't think it'll necessarily be worse at accounting for disadvantage than the system currently is - That's not to say that seas is going to be able to compensate for the disproportionate effects of covid-19, just that it already does a shit job of accounting for all disadvantage.

It is true that there are some young and otherwise healthy people who get seriously ill from covd-19, however I think it's been played up a bit to try and scare young people who otherwise wouldn't care into actually practicing good hygiene, we're still a tiny fraction of serious cases.

Quote
Also, with schools potentially going to online mode, it will again affect students. A portion of students would probably prefer face-to-face learning and maybe they'll find online learning too difficult to them or hard to adjust to as they are not used to it. Again, this is another factor that will ultimately affect their learning.
Same could be said in reverse so I don't think this is a big deal - definitely something that ses will effect as high ses people will be able to afford tutors and more likely to have better educated parents who can help them but that is how it is with regular school too.

Covid-19 is definitely going to exacerbate a lot of disadvantage - It's pretty much certain that there'll be increased rates of domestic violence, a lot of people with existing mental health illnesses are going to struggle with isolation, and those without are going to be at increased risk, people who don't have a home environment that's a good learning space or don't have the resources they need to study are going to really struggle with the closures of schools along with libraries and other public resources. It's a whole lot shitty all around.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on March 23, 2020, 05:34:00 pm
Dream chaser I would recommend having a read of the resources on the Department of Health and Human Services website - there's lots of resources there that are trustworthy and understandable :)
It's quite normal and understandable to be worried & confused in these times - we'll all get through this together.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 23, 2020, 07:07:32 pm
^If year 12 exams were cancelled, I would entirely expect for the majority to redo year 12. All I meant by my comment about unis offering alternative entry options was that it would also be possible to get into uni if redoing sounds like a nightmare, albeit it may take longer.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on March 23, 2020, 07:25:46 pm
Does anyone want to write an article for VicSRC????
It can be on one of or a blend of multiple topics

1. articles covering your personal perspectives on schools shutting down
2. diverse perspectives on concerns like student health and issues with online learning (maybe talk to a bunch of different people, how do other students at your school feel about these things?)
3. how your community (school, neighbourhood, family) is doing right now and how they're pulling together to support each other (are you talking to family members on the phone more? are you checking in on your neighbours? is your school offering extra mental health support?)
4. ideas and examples of how to continue to advocate online at all levels, eg classroom, school council, local council, government
5. some lighter articles like 'our fave movies/books for staying inside' and 'hobbies you can take up while social distancing'

Let me know ASAP if your interested :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on March 24, 2020, 01:28:07 am
The uncertainty is crazy frustrating. Our school told us last week that today was going to be a day off for teachers to do some "online learning" training, so I guess that means that I'm done for the term... I highly doubt we'll be back on the school premise doing classes in three weeks, even though that's what our teachers are saying...
I know what you mean! Time management and accountability can be difficult, but you might find that you enjoy a self-directed (ish) style of learning. Will you have some form of contact with your teachers?
I think I do have some form of contact with my teachers, but idk how teaching is suppose to work online. I think some of my teachers are very disorganised same goes for students. I am in year 11 now, I feel bad for year 12's cuz some of them have not completed unit 3 sacs yet. Also I heard my teacher said they will be doing test online, I just pray that no one cheats. I will try to force myself into doing some work I guess. For some reason it seems like my school seems happen about holidays starting early.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on March 25, 2020, 05:06:20 pm
Opinions?

http://change.org/p/federal-and-state-ministers-for-education-australia-noatar2020-australia?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_21008131_en-AU%3Av3&recruiter=925445925&recruited_by_id=c1a5ebf0-08ff-11e9-9e4c-33a37c70198c&utm_source=share_pet
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on March 25, 2020, 05:30:05 pm
Opinions?

http://change.org/p/federal-and-state-ministers-for-education-australia-noatar2020-australia?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_21008131_en-AU%3Av3&recruiter=925445925&recruited_by_id=c1a5ebf0-08ff-11e9-9e4c-33a37c70198c&utm_source=share_pet
I guess the sentiment is understandable at this point in time but I don't agree with a lot of which is brough brought up. The other systems they propose are much more prone to corruption. They cite they wan't to reduce the inequity in the system (obviously, everyone agrees even without the pandemic it is not a perfect system) but the changes they propose would only increase inequities.  Especially the type admissions they are seeking such as teacher's acknowledging satisfactory requiements and these "portfolios" of "learning and life" will make university admissions much more subjective and potentially also exacerbate SES differences.

Also they heavily rely on the idea that Australia is the only country to rank students, maybe later I will see if any other country does this. However, whatever the case is all these systems are ranking students even if it is not explicitly shown.


Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on March 25, 2020, 06:05:32 pm
Opinions?

http://change.org/p/federal-and-state-ministers-for-education-australia-noatar2020-australia?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_21008131_en-AU%3Av3&recruiter=925445925&recruited_by_id=c1a5ebf0-08ff-11e9-9e4c-33a37c70198c&utm_source=share_pet
I disagree with the proposal. Since the ATAR is a rank, and everyone is experiencing the effects of the coronavirus, the ATAR will still be 'accurate' as with previous years. The only barrier is SES, which exists without the virus, as Sine as already said. I think the maximum effect it will have on schools is up till term 2, anything further is unlikely at this point in time (although possible) so I still think students will be able to complete their exams. I think VCAA/other states might have to change a few things up regarding SACs, however, if schools are on lockdown for a prolonged period of time.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: PhoenixxFire on March 25, 2020, 06:11:37 pm
Opinions?

http://change.org/p/federal-and-state-ministers-for-education-australia-noatar2020-australia?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_21008131_en-AU%3Av3&recruiter=925445925&recruited_by_id=c1a5ebf0-08ff-11e9-9e4c-33a37c70198c&utm_source=share_pet
LMAO the guy who started that petition is the former principal of my high school and is a very adamant supporter of alternative entry to university and removing atars. Not surprised to see him using this opportunity to try and decrease focus on atar.

I think I'd be on the side of keeping atar but having unis make more alternative entry options & publicise them so that students have other options.

everyone is experiencing the effects of the coronavirus, the ATAR will still be 'accurate' as with previous years.
Coronavirus is not at all affecting people equally & it absolutely will disadvantage some people more e.g. people without internet, people who have sick/dying relatives or have to take extra measures to prevent relatives getting sick, etc. The question is whether seas can account for that exacerbation of disadvantage and that remains to be seen.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on March 25, 2020, 08:44:56 pm
I disagree with the proposal. Since the ATAR is a rank, and everyone is experiencing the effects of the coronavirus, the ATAR will still be 'accurate' as with previous years. The only barrier is SES, which exists without the virus, as Sine as already said. I think the maximum effect it will have on schools is up till term 2, anything further is unlikely at this point in time (although possible) so I still think students will be able to complete their exams. I think VCAA/other states might have to change a few things up regarding SACs, however, if schools are on lockdown for a prolonged period of time.
I agree too, I think everyone should just try to hang on 4-5 weeks and see how it goes. It may only last until term 2 (I HOPE IT DOES NOT GO LONGER). The only difference is that sacs might have to be done elsewhere or online. I think Vcaa should dump internal rankings and make the exam 100% does anyone else agree?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on March 25, 2020, 10:54:27 pm
I agree too, I think everyone should just try to hang on 4-5 weeks and see how it goes. It may only last until term 2 (I HOPE IT DOES NOT GO LONGER). The only difference is that sacs might have to be done elsewhere or online. I think Vcaa should dump internal rankings and make the exam 100% does anyone else agree?
I highly doubt that VCAA would drop rankings and turn the exam to equate 100%. SACs have been done at home many times at online school like VSV. This has happened for MANY years, and whilst the ranking may be a little bit stuffed up due to someone giving themselves a little extra time, or peaking at their textbook, it still all comes down to skill, especially in subjective subjects like English. Not everyone well get the same score, so there will still be ranks. That's just my reasoning though. It will be interesting to see what they do though. Plus, if the exam was worth 100%, it would put so much stress on students, as well as the many folio subjects and arts, like PDT, food studies, ART, dance, theater studies etc that have their exam percentage worth so little due to having many practical assignments.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on March 27, 2020, 11:03:02 pm
I highly doubt that VCAA would drop rankings and turn the exam to equate 100%. SACs have been done at home many times at online school like VSV. This has happened for MANY years, and whilst the ranking may be a little bit stuffed up due to someone giving themselves a little extra time, or peaking at their textbook, it still all comes down to skill, especially in subjective subjects like English. Not everyone well get the same score, so there will still be ranks. That's just my reasoning though. It will be interesting to see what they do though. Plus, if the exam was worth 100%, it would put so much stress on students, as well as the many folio subjects and arts, like PDT, food studies, ART, dance, theater studies etc that have their exam percentage worth so little due to having many practical assignments.
How does VSV do it online? Also does that mean that some students will cheat?
-Good thing English is skill based and therefore students cannot cheat by looking through notes etc. But for subjects like math/chemistry/commerce and history looking at notes can certainly help.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TheEagle on April 02, 2020, 01:59:04 am
I have been thinking for the past week about VCAA lowering the aggregates for the ATARS. How likely would this be? What is everyone's thoughts on the situation and what do you think VCAA will enforce?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on April 02, 2020, 12:39:56 pm
I have been thinking for the past week about VCAA lowering the aggregates for the ATARS. How likely would this be? What is everyone's thoughts on the situation and what do you think VCAA will enforce?
What would that change though?
ATARs would be inflated and thus ATARs required for entry into university would be inflated? That would do nothing except maybe have students feel a little bit better about themselves when ATARs come out.

Also, this would just completely change the definition of what an ATAR is.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on April 05, 2020, 07:29:24 pm
Daniel Andrews just announced that VCE will most likely be extended into December or early 2021.He said that we most likely wouldn't do exams in 2021, but that our ATARs could possibly be released then due to a delayed exam season.
Still no news on the GAT.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 06, 2020, 05:44:32 pm
Local school principal announced that schools would be open as students of essential workers, and vulnerable kids need somewhere to go (same as the thing with childcare's reopening). Don't know if it was an official statement to parents or to teachers (parents are teachers) and not sure whether that's her speculation or what she's been told by a higher up.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on April 06, 2020, 05:56:37 pm
^^^ Probably fairly accurate -  I've seen people dropping similar hints over the last few days.

VTAC has made an announcement and has a new tab on their wesbite dedicated to this - they're determined to make sure everyone gets an ATAR, and fairly.

I'd say that we should get an offical announcement in the next 2 ish days about whether schools will be officially opening next week. What do you all think?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 06, 2020, 06:15:55 pm
Local school principal announced that schools would be open as students of essential workers, and vulnerable kids need somewhere to go (same as the thing with childcare's reopening). Don't know if it was an official statement to parents or to teachers (parents are teachers) and not sure whether that's her speculation or what she's been told by a higher up.

Even if that information is accurate, that may not mean that regular classes will be occurring. Rather, there may just be a few members of staff attending school to supervise (as opposed to teach) any students who need to be there, because staying at home is not an option.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: AngelWings on April 07, 2020, 07:16:14 am
Just wanted to leave this article here. Thereís been more talks about Year 12s, ATARs and exams in the news. Hopefully you guys get some solid answers to a lot of the questions and uncertainties in this thread soon.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: angrybiscuit on April 07, 2020, 08:41:33 am
Personally not a huge fan of scrapping exams. Relying on teachers' sacs and assignments is just a huge no no. I can already think of a million things that are wrong with that. Difficulty of the SACs given and the marking, the SAC itself, they're all different across all schools. I can tell you from my school that teachers are almost always never accurate and the thought of my ATAR being reliant on them just stresses me out. I never thought twice to stress about the inaccuracies of my school due to the exam which kind of levels out the playing field.

The GAT, based on my experience, is not that great at determining study scores... my GAT scores last year were absolutely horrendous and I can only imagine what study score I would have gotten if they based it off of such. Yes this time calls for uncertainty and mental strain but cancelling exams will just deepen the inequality that this virus has already caused.

What do you guys think of shortening the study design and cutting out some chunks of it for the lost time? Some of my teachers have talked about this prior to the shutdown and want to hear your thoughts on it.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on April 07, 2020, 08:56:00 am
The GAT is being moved to October/November.
The exams are being moved to December.
The Atars will most likely be released at January.
If this is not possible, then GAT, SACs, and year 11 marks will be used for a derived ATAR as a last resort. (Plan B)
SAC will be reduced for all students.
Exam period may be shortened.
Exams themselves may be shortened.
There will be laptops given out to households who don't have one, and we are being told schools will open next Wednesday, however if you can stay home and do remote learning you should.

THERE will be an ATAR, and there won't be year 13.

Just announced from the premier and education minister.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on April 07, 2020, 09:53:43 am
If this is not possible, then GAT, SACs, and year 11 marks will be used for a derived ATAR as a last resort. (Plan B)

Year 11 marks??? As a person who did quite poorly in year 11 due to lack of effort, I would be completely horrified by this.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 07, 2020, 10:01:24 am
Personally not a huge fan of scrapping exams. Relying on teachers' sacs and assignments is just a huge no no. I can already think of a million things that are wrong with that. Difficulty of the SACs given and the marking, the SAC itself, they're all different across all schools. I can tell you from my school that teachers are almost always never accurate and the thought of my ATAR being reliant on them just stresses me out. I never thought twice to stress about the inaccuracies of my school due to the exam which kind of levels out the playing field.

The GAT, based on my experience, is not that great at determining study scores... my GAT scores last year were absolutely horrendous and I can only imagine what study score I would have gotten if they based it off of such. Yes this time calls for uncertainty and mental strain but cancelling exams will just deepen the inequality that this virus has already caused.

What do you guys think of shortening the study design and cutting out some chunks of it for the lost time? Some of my teachers have talked about this prior to the shutdown and want to hear your thoughts on it.
HELL NO TO TEACHERS JUDGEMENT AND HELL NO TO USING GATS. Hell yeah to moving exams tho, cuz I can cope well with extra time. Lol I am freaking out right now, cuz so much uncertainty. Teachers can be quite bias (not saying that to scare people) and favour some students over others so therefore I too can think of millions of things that can go wrong with this. What I nominate is maybe scrapping 1 sac and making the other sac worth half the study score or majority of the study score. Than the exam the rest of the study score. I think shortening the study design is a great idea especially for methods.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 07, 2020, 10:02:23 am
Its good to finally get some clarification about what is going to happen, my parents are telling me that even if I have SACs I should be staying home which makes sense but if I've got a SAC you best believe I'll be going to school. I remember the last week of school everyone was hyper-aware of social distancing and hygiene like we were sitting a table to ourselves where we could and we were washing our hands so frequently and the kitchenette was getting wiped down daily or twice daily so I'm honestly not worried about getting sick and if I felt sick I'd be staying home. Like with everything we are doing, and as Year 12 students feeling the need to attend school, if we get sick it's honestly bad luck given that many don't show symptoms rather than people feeling sick and being stupid and not staying home.

Also, i would hate for Year 11 marks to play a factor in this. My exam scores were horrible except for English, I'd rather repeat Year 12 :/
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on April 07, 2020, 10:06:59 am
I was asked for a source and this article was just released:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-07/coronavirus-cases-increase-victoria-as-schools-reopen-next-week/12127176

But yeah my year 11 marks are not something i'm proud of and I'd hate for them to be used.

The official statement from the premier:
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/victorian-students-to-learn-from-home-as-vce-timelines-revised/
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 07, 2020, 10:14:50 am
I hear you believe me, I am not doing too well and if my current scores were used I think I would be seeing a very dark road ahead. Currently the whole say at home thing isn't working well for me. I like many others are quite new to this method and it is always best to learn at school for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on April 07, 2020, 10:18:42 am
The GAT is being moved to October/November.
The exams are being moved to December.
The Atars will most likely be released at January.
If this is not possible, then GAT, SACs, and year 11 marks will be used for a derived ATAR as a last resort. (Plan B)
SAC will be reduced for all students.
Exam period may be shortened.
Exams themselves may be shortened.
There will be laptops given out to households who don't have one, and we are being told schools will open next Wednesday, however if you can stay home and do remote learning you should.

THERE will be an ATAR, and there won't be year 13.

Just announced from the premier and education minister.
I think having exams in December and ATARs released in January is a really great idea. However, Plan B is quite bad and the statistical validity of the ATARs won't be that great - I would expect a heap of students to be repeating year 12 next year if that was the case.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 07, 2020, 10:24:57 am
I think having exams in December and ATARs released in January is a really great idea. However, Plan B is quite bad and the statistical validity of the ATARs won't be that great - I would expect a heap of students to be repeating year 12 next year if that was the case.
Personally I think exams should be extending further just cuz we are uncertain how long this corona virus thing will last. I feel like life will not be normal again for at least months and we got a long road ahead.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 07, 2020, 10:26:27 am
I defs think pushing exams back is a good idea, but the talk of 'shortening sacs and exams" I am NOT keen on this idea
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on April 07, 2020, 10:36:16 am
FWIW If I was in this position in year 12 I would really just be hoping for 100% study score on exams. There are of course many negatives of having your entire study score based upon your performance on a single day. However, I see exams as a great leveller that removes the difficulties of comparing SACs and SAC marking across schools. It is going to become quite murky with some SACs being cancelled, struggling to fit in other SACs and especially how you can safely conduct a cohort SAC during these times.

Full exams sometime in Dec when *hopefully* COVID-19 has blown over would be perhaps the best compromise in my view.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 07, 2020, 10:39:31 am
Its good to finally get some clarification about what is going to happen, my parents are telling me that even if I have SACs I should be staying home which makes sense but if I've got a SAC you best believe I'll be going to school.

There's no point to this, because you can not expect your teacher for that subject to be attending work.

FWIW If I was in this position in year 12 I would really just be hoping for 100% study score on exams. There are of course many negatives of having your entire study score based upon your performance on a single day. However, I see exams as a great leveller that removes the difficulties of comparing SACs and SAC marking across schools. It is going to become quite murky with some SACs being cancelled, struggling to fit in other SACs and especially how you can safely conduct a cohort SAC during these times.

Full exams sometime in Dec when *hopefully* COVID-19 has blown over would be perhaps the best compromise in my view.

Agreed, and VCAA's advice on how to run SACs has been pathetic. They are just maintaining the line that SAC implementation is a "school based decision", and providing no concrete advice / examples on how these should run / be authenticated / be moderated / etc.

Edit: and exams should not be changed from their usual format. It's important that student results accurately reflect their understanding of the study designs, because these results are used to make decisions about future learning.

Mod edit: Merged double post
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 07, 2020, 10:56:04 am
There's no point to this, because you can not expect your teacher for that subject to be attending work.

Any teacher can administer a SAC, and I know the school the next town across the teachers will be working on a roster so they can support students who HAVE to attend school but also last term teachers were saying (not sure if that's still applicable) that you would need to attend school for SACS only and it would either be in groups of 5 across the day (to account for the 2m social distancing requirement) so you'd be scheduled for a time slot when you'd have to come to school and do the SAC.
It'll be interesting to see how this all ends up working out :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ashmi on April 07, 2020, 10:57:55 am
The GAT is being moved to October/November.
The exams are being moved to December.
The Atars will most likely be released at January.
If this is not possible, then GAT, SACs, and year 11 marks will be used for a derived ATAR as a last resort. (Plan B)
SAC will be reduced for all students.
Exam period may be shortened.
Exams themselves may be shortened.
There will be laptops given out to households who don't have one, and we are being told schools will open next Wednesday, however if you can stay home and do remote learning you should.

THERE will be an ATAR, and there won't be year 13.

All this sounds alright but as someone who did absolutely appallingly in Year 11, I am terrified at that "Plan B" idea. (I'm sure there are many of us who might feel the same way. My GAT scores are the worst you probably will ever see). This also brings the idea that worst-case scenario we might have to full-on study for the GAT... (really hope not). I like the idea of pushing back the exams till December and getting results in January as it means we probably can continue our studies right to the end.

When they mean 'shortening the exam' do they mean literally taking chunks out of the study design? What would happen to prerequisite subjects like Methods and Chem then? (Learn it in uni or something?). I'd rather repeat Year 12 in all honesty :'(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on April 07, 2020, 11:02:34 am
All this sounds alright but as someone who did absolutely appallingly in Year 11, I am terrified at that "Plan B" idea. (I'm sure there are many of us who might feel the same way. My GAT scores are the worst you probably will ever see). This also brings the idea that worst-case scenario we might have to full-on study for the GAT... (really hope not). I like the idea of pushing back the exams till December and getting results in January as it means we probably can continue our studies right to the end.

When they mean 'shortening the exam' do they mean literally taking chunks out of the study design? What would happen to prerequisite subjects like Methods and Chem then? (Learn it in uni or something?). I'd rather repeat Year 12 in all honesty :'(
From the press conference what they were saying was that they would shorten the exams, not the study designs. So instead of the regular 2:45 minute exam, it may be shortened to 2 hours in order to fit more exams in on that day, to allow the exam period to be spread across a shorter time span instead of the normal 3 weeks. That is just from my understanding though.

I really don't want to have to study for the GAT either, so i'm with you on that.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Bri MT on April 07, 2020, 11:09:27 am
All this sounds alright but as someone who did absolutely appallingly in Year 11, I am terrified at that "Plan B" idea. (I'm sure there are many of us who might feel the same way. My GAT scores are the worst you probably will ever see). This also brings the idea that worst-case scenario we might have to full-on study for the GAT... (really hope not). I like the idea of pushing back the exams till December and getting results in January as it means we probably can continue our studies right to the end.

When they mean 'shortening the exam' do they mean literally taking chunks out of the study design? What would happen to prerequisite subjects like Methods and Chem then? (Learn it in uni or something?). I'd rather repeat Year 12 in all honesty :'(

Imo having a shorter exam isn't the biggest issue as it's never going to cover everything possible to be examined anyway and I'm sure they'll be careful when designing the exams to have decent breadth and depth.

I would really hope for them not to use year 11 results for study score calculation. SACs aren't all that standardised in units 3&4 but units 1&2....  better having exams in 2021 than using 1&2 results imo.

Unis would adapt for prereq knowledge if needed. In my experience with science a lot of first year was content that had already been covered in VCE (but taught significantly faster)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TigerMum on April 07, 2020, 11:20:16 am
I'm only a Year 11 student here, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I'm OK with exams being postponed to December, it seems fair enough considering the lost time at school. However, I really don't like any of the ideas being proposed for "Plan B". Using Year 11 marks would be extremely unfair; my main issue is the idea of telling students something is an S or an N and then a year later saying "oh yeah, this is going towards your uni entry score", not to mention there is minimal standardisation among different Year 11 classes within the one school, let alone across the whole state. Using GAT scores is just eww.

In general I have a strong dislike of anything that involves the judgement of teachers within the school. If the ATAR is what it's supposed to be; a tool to compare you against the rest of the state, then you should actually be marked the same way as  the rest of the state.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on April 07, 2020, 11:32:32 am
There is a reason we all have absolutely appalling marks in year 11. We are never told they matter. Because they don't. If we were told year 11 marks matter, then we all would have tried so much harder and done better. Using year 11 marks is so unfair because they don't measure our true ability at all. Some tests I never even studied for because I just couldn't be bothered. No, I'm not kidding. I got 50 something percent on my chemistry exam. This wasn't because I was bad at chemistry, but it was because I didn't put any effort into the subject. Using year 11 marks as a basis for year 12 marks is the worst Plan B I have ever heard. Don't even get me started about the GAT... I did so horrendously in that too last year and I doubt I will do any better this year. If the GAT ends up mattering for everyone, which politician decided it would be a marvellous idea to place it a month before 3/4 exams? Now we have added stress to perform well on the GAT AND our 3/4 exams. Shortening exams. This is also a bad idea. Now 1 mark is worth so much more than it ever could have. Getting 90/100 and 190/200 are 2 very different things. And less SACs... now I am doomed for English. I was so ready to redeem myself in the next few SACs, but now there's less of them, what's even the point, since each one matters so much more now? Everything they have proposed seems horrible. The only thing I can remotely agree with is pushing exams back.

I wish they would make exams like 90% of our study scores or something. That would be so much better. SACs are so variable between schools that I don't think lessening them will improve anything anyways. And as of Plan B, you CANNOT standardise year 11 scores for the entire state/country and make it even remotely 'fair'. What the hell James Merlino + VCAA?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: vox nihili on April 07, 2020, 11:32:39 am
There's been a lot of hearsay around education, so the moves today will be an attempt to provide some certainty around how things are going to happen. Completely reasonable to discuss what might happen, but just remember that if it hasn't been announced, you're operating in a very uncertain environment.

To add to the statement above, VCAA have this on their website: https://vcaa.vic.edu.au/ChangesToVCEandVCAL2020/Pages/default.aspx
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on April 07, 2020, 11:35:05 am
Interesting....I personally do like the idea of having exams in December, probably the best option. However, I'd much rather them push back exams to January than use GAT results especially!

Just waiting to see what will happen with SACs - I'm guessing that *eventually* they'll let small groups of students come in and do them? They did say that it will slowly be allowed that for practical subjects such as Chemistry, students will be able to come in and do practicals.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on April 07, 2020, 12:05:28 pm
All this sounds alright but as someone who did absolutely appallingly in Year 11, I am terrified at that "Plan B" idea. (I'm sure there are many of us who might feel the same way. My GAT scores are the worst you probably will ever see). This also brings the idea that worst-case scenario we might have to full-on study for the GAT... (really hope not). I like the idea of pushing back the exams till December and getting results in January as it means we probably can continue our studies right to the end.

When they mean 'shortening the exam' do they mean literally taking chunks out of the study design? What would happen to prerequisite subjects like Methods and Chem then? (Learn it in uni or something?). I'd rather repeat Year 12 in all honesty :'(
Sadly, tutoring companies are probably already scrambling to prepare "GAT resources" to push immediately if the plan B outcome eventuates.

I think the writing section is probably the only one you can properly prepare for in a short time. The Science/Tech/Maths + Humanities section are things that are more about the skills developed over your whole lifetime.

I am not sure but I would think shortening exams would mean fewer questions but the same study design. This would allow them to have more exams in a single day and decrease the duration of the exam period.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Chocolatemilkshake on April 07, 2020, 12:13:18 pm
If Plan B was to go ahead (really hope it doesn't!!), what would happen to people who have already done a 3/4? I put a tonne of effort in last year and I would like to see my score utilised. However, I also understand that we wouldn't want to disadvantage people who haven't done a 3/4?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on April 07, 2020, 12:17:03 pm
If Plan B was to go ahead (really hope it doesn't!!), what would happen to people who have already done a 3/4? I put a tonne of effort in last year and I would like to see my score utilised. However, I also understand that we wouldn't want to disadvantage people who haven't done a 3/4?
Pure speculation (since no official statement that I know of) but the logical thing would be to use any study score that has already been obtained by sitting the end of year exam. After all, that is a more accurate estimation of what study score someone should get than sacs/GAT/year 11 report/teacher discretion etc
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on April 07, 2020, 12:18:13 pm
If Plan B was to go ahead (really hope it doesn't!!), what would happen to people who have already done a 3/4? I put a tonne of effort in last year and I would like to see my score utilised. However, I also understand that we wouldn't want to disadvantage people who haven't done a 3/4?

Really unlikely that our 3/4s won't go towards our ATAR. Those people who didn't do a 3/4 chose not to do a 3/4/school didn't allow them for whatever reason. It doesn't mean our 3/4s will be discredited, it just means those who didn't do a 3/4 will have more study scores derived from the Plan B method (as they are likely to be doing more subjects).
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Chocolatemilkshake on April 07, 2020, 12:21:15 pm
Ah I see that makes sense. But what if you tagged a subject (Only did 1 unit?), VCAA would only have one semester of scores to work with?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ashmi on April 07, 2020, 12:23:47 pm
If Plan B was to go ahead (really hope it doesn't!!), what would happen to people who have already done a 3/4? I put a tonne of effort in last year and I would like to see my score utilised. However, I also understand that we wouldn't want to disadvantage people who haven't done a 3/4?

This is a really good point. Also, what would happen for people that didn't do a study of a certain 3/4 subject in 1/2? Would they just join all your scores together from your other subjects and get an average or would they have to rely on other things such as your GAT if you haven't done a sequence of that study before?

That would be horrific to the whole system.
The point of doing a 1/2 subject in the first place is to make mistakes and grow as a learner, not to be put on the spot and be told 'Hey, we are using your scores now as a Plan B thank you'. Where did all the ideas of learning go when they made that Plan B idea?

*Mini-rant coming through*
I'm sure many of us made plenty of mistakes in Year 11, specifically made mistakes to learn. That was a trial year for us, for us to all learn new things, make mistakes and try new ideas and all of a sudden that's now a backup plan? We were all comfortable knowing about getting an S or an N and being able to do badly because it was Year 11. With this whole new idea it's like the concept of learning has gone out of the window and that they expect us to be perfect in Year 11 (that is what Year 12 is for not Year 11).
*Mini-rant ended*
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on April 07, 2020, 12:31:45 pm
This is a really good point. Also, what would happen for people that didn't do a study of a certain 3/4 subject in 1/2? Would they just join all your scores together from your other subjects and get an average or would they have to rely on other things such as your GAT if you haven't done a sequence of that study before?

That would be horrific to the whole system.
The point of doing a 1/2 subject in the first place is to make mistakes and grow as a learner, not to be put on the spot and be told 'Hey, we are using your scores now as a Plan B thank you'. Where did all the ideas of learning go when they made that Plan B idea?

*Mini-rant coming through*
I'm sure many of us made plenty of mistakes in Year 11, specifically made mistakes to learn. That was a trial year for us, for us to all learn new things, make mistakes and try new ideas and all of a sudden that's now a backup plan? We were all comfortable knowing about getting an S or an N and being able to do badly because it was Year 11. With this whole new idea it's like the concept of learning has gone out of the window and that they expect us to be perfect in Year 11 (that is what Year 12 is for not Year 11).
*Mini-rant ended*

I agree with this! Almost everyone in my year level (year 11) is doing a 3/4 that we didn't do last year! I also could not imagine having to do all my subjects in year 12..... Also, schools assess 1/2 subjects very differently.

I think what they have proposed will hopefully work, however moving exams back will interrupt some things (schoolies, exchanges etc.) But with the world we live in, there is no way to avoid interruptions :'(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 07, 2020, 12:53:29 pm
This is what my school just said
Quote
All students will be learning from home, except for students in the following categories:

1. Children on days when they are not able to be supervised at home and no other arrangements can be made.

This will be available for children of parents who cannot work from home, and vulnerable children, including:

∑       children in out-of-home care

∑       children deemed by Child Protection and/or Family Services to be at risk of harm

∑       children identified by the school as vulnerable (including via referral from a family violence agency, homelessness or youth justice service or mental health or other health service and children with a disability).
 
2. For learning requirements that cannot be conducted via distance, and considering operational requirements set out below, small groups of VCE and VCAL students are permitted to attend school, with appropriate physical distancing and hygiene measures in place.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 07, 2020, 01:16:02 pm
That advice is more or less copy-pasted from the department, so it is accurate.

A couple of other things that might be relevant for students to know:

If you fall into a category where you will attend school, then the "on-site" learning will be the same as remote learning (ie. you won't be in a regular class), but there'll be a staff member around to supervise. This is just for duty-of-care reasons, rather than for teaching and learning. The ratio of staff to student is no more than 1:10. Supervision may be done by non-teaching staff. So if you need to attend school, do not expect that you will be able to speak face-to-face with a teacher of your subject(s).

If you rely on public transport to get to school, the same bus services will still be running.

It is not clear if "learning requirements that can not be conducted at a distance" includes SACs needing to be supervised. It probably doesn't (it's too big a loophole).
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on April 07, 2020, 01:21:37 pm
It is not clear if "learning requirements that can not be conducted at a distance" includes SACs needing to be supervised. It probably doesn't (it's too big a loophole).

In terms of SACs, they can be run at home. My further SAC was run at home, so basically it was in a Microsoft form and we were on zoom video the entire time. We could only leave if we contacted the teacher, and we had to show our workspace. Some SACs with a smaller cohort have gone ahead, but it is possible to do a SAC at home, however, I'm not sure how it would work in some schools.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TigerMum on April 07, 2020, 01:33:04 pm
In terms of SACs, they can be run at home. My further SAC was run at home, so basically it was in a Microsoft form and we were on zoom video the entire time. We could only leave if we contacted the teacher, and we had to show our workspace. Some SACs with a smaller cohort have gone ahead, but it is possible to do a SAC at home, however, I'm not sure how it would work in some schools.

How can they mark working out on a Microsoft form?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: MoonChild1234 on April 07, 2020, 03:07:48 pm
this might be nitpicky but I would rather they did not shorten the exams (for example making the exam 1 hour instead of 2) because there is the added stress of preparing for time management in an exam format we have never done before. there won't be any sample or practice exams to refer to, and so it will be like preparing for an exam without actually knowing how to approach it

furthermore, i think reducing exams by say 30 minutes or an hour reallly isn't going to do much in terms of stress levels (which will be high anyways), they are better off keeping the exam structure and pushing the exams back to late dec early jan as they are thinking of doing
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Snow Leopard on April 07, 2020, 04:06:58 pm
I can't believe I thought that school would be back to normal for term 2. NaÔve me.

What if you did badly on the first SAC for your 3/4 subject. Would your SAC marks be largely based on that if they're gonna reduce the number of SACs done?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on April 07, 2020, 04:48:50 pm
How can they mark working out on a Microsoft form?

I'm not sure how it would work for other subjects, but as it was a data analysis SAC for further maths, it was just analysing data and writing reports. We also had to draw some draws which we had to scan and submit.

They also recorded the zoom meeting to double-check academic integrity and stuff. Some schools would be different, but my school doesn't have much trouble with cheating so it worked out very well.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 07, 2020, 08:23:03 pm
So I just heard of the plan B and plan C thing on the news, so far I think gonna have to disagree with plan C tho. Using GAT (which is not important), year 11 marks (which I did poorly at) or school based judgement is a terrible plan. I most likely have to disagree with pretty much all plans. In my opinion exams should go on or be delayed. Is the remote learning thing going for all term 2? or just a small part of it?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Aaron on April 07, 2020, 08:32:36 pm
So I just heard of the plan B and plan C thing on the news, so far I think gonna have to disagree with plan C tho. Using GAT (which is not important), year 11 marks (which I did poorly at) or school based judgement is a terrible plan. I most likely have to disagree with pretty much all plans. In my opinion exams should go on or be delayed. Is the remote learning thing going for all term 2? or just a small part of it?

At the moment all of Term 2. But like what we've seen, anything can change at any time.

There's no 'right' way to approach this whole thing either, by the way. Nothing is going to be 100% and there's going to always be someone that disagrees or is hard done by because of it, but honestly this is something I know I haven't seen in my lifetime. It sucks that it has disrupted Year 12 and you're the unlucky bunch that has copped it, but the health of yourself and everybody else takes priority. The "Plan B and C" are worst case scenarios and they are at the moment just ideas. In a terrible situation, we're all just doing our best and making the most of what we can. Over the past month I have led (as part of a small ICT team) the online transition for my school and there is worry from Year 12 teachers as well (quite rightly)... but know this, your school will be doing EVERYTHING they can to support you all during this time within the guidelines set.

I'd honestly be prepared for all of Term 2 with the potential for longer. They (the government(s)) will not risk a return to school (which is a crowded/populated place, with a clear inability to maintain social distancing if all students/teachers are present) while its still spreading, given the strict social isolation and quarantining which has inconvenienced most if not all of our lives for a good couple of weeks now.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on April 07, 2020, 08:49:25 pm
Is the remote learning thing going for all term 2? or just a small part of it?

My school just made an announcement and said remote learning will occur for all of Term 2.

Was not expecting this tbh.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 07, 2020, 09:16:52 pm
At the moment all of Term 2. But like what we've seen, anything can change at any time.

There's no 'right' way to approach this whole thing either, by the way. Nothing is going to be 100% and there's going to always be someone that disagrees or is hard done by because of it, but honestly this is something I know I haven't seen in my lifetime. It sucks that it has disrupted Year 12 and you're the unlucky bunch that has copped it, but the health of yourself and everybody else takes priority. The "Plan B and C" are worst case scenarios and they are at the moment just ideas. In a terrible situation, we're all just doing our best and making the most of what we can. Over the past month I have led (as part of a small ICT team) the online transition for my school and there is worry from Year 12 teachers as well (quite rightly)... but know this, your school will be doing EVERYTHING they can to support you all during this time within the guidelines set.

I'd honestly be prepared for all of Term 2 with the potential for longer. They (the government(s)) will not risk a return to school (which is a crowded/populated place, with a clear inability to maintain social distancing if all students/teachers are present) while its still spreading, given the strict social isolation and quarantining which has inconvenienced most if not all of our lives for a good couple of weeks now.
Honestly I hope not longer, I think we are starting to flatten that corona virus curve. I feel like it should occur term 2, but potential (hope not) longer. My school just sent a message as well, to all students and said that students who can learn from home MUST LEARN FROM HOME; schools will remain open tho.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 09, 2020, 12:25:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SNXPzV_MEE&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 09, 2020, 08:50:17 am
https://www.smh.com.au/education/kill-the-atar-call-to-cancel-exams-amid-coronavirus-outbreak-and-as-unscored-vce-gains-ground-20200330-p54fdd.html

Idk about you guys but I don't think randoms should be able to sign a petition to scrap the ATAR, I think if anything it should be exclusive to students and perhaps teachers....this is old news but what do you all think?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 09, 2020, 10:35:26 am
It's not just students / teachers that are stakeholders in the ATAR system.

For better or for worse (and, generally I don't like it), it is an important tool that we use for allocating educational / economic / social opportunities, and thus it plays a very significant role in the organisation of our society, and thus a wide range of people have an interest in whether it exists and the form in which it exists.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on April 09, 2020, 02:22:56 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/education/kill-the-atar-call-to-cancel-exams-amid-coronavirus-outbreak-and-as-unscored-vce-gains-ground-20200330-p54fdd.html

Idk about you guys but I don't think randoms should be able to sign a petition to scrap the ATAR, I think if anything it should be exclusive to students and perhaps teachers....this is old news but what do you all think?
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 09, 2020, 02:31:32 pm
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?
That's my thought process, but maybe people think if everyone does 'unscored' then everyone has equal chance to go to uni? It baffles me, because even if the entire state goes shit SOMEONE has to get the 99.95's and 99's etc
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 09, 2020, 02:49:16 pm
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?

That doesn't follow. One might dislike ATARs but want to do a course that requires a minimum ATAR for entry.

That's my thought process, but maybe people think if everyone does 'unscored' then everyone has equal chance to go to uni? It baffles me, because even if the entire state goes shit SOMEONE has to get the 99.95's and 99's etc

I don't have any evidence, but my hunch would be that there's very little variation from year to year in the academic ability of the 99.xx cohort. But you're right, the fact that ATAR is a ranking rather than a more direct measure of academic achievement is a significant problem.

There's also no reason to believe that removing ATARs would undermine the integrity of university admissions. Just require minimum standards of performance on prerequisite subjects - where "minimum standard" is not measured by study scores but by raw scores on exams.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TigerMum on April 09, 2020, 03:18:02 pm
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?

My thoughts exactly. If someone truly believes that the ATAR should be scrapped, then they should have a proposition for a better system. I haven't heard a single idea for a better system. As opposed to straight standardised tests, the ATAR not only rewards aptitude, but hard work and persistence. If you don't plan to go to university, then you don't need to receive an ATAR.

The bottom line is that students need to be ranked in one way or another for university entrances, and I believe that looking at Year 12 results are the best way of doing it. Our system is vastly superior to countries like US, where they consider all sorts of things like extra-curricular activities and internships, which mostly benefits those who have parents that can fund those activities, (not to mention heaps of application essays that are just a competition of who can find the best application writer) and the ATAR completely avoids nepotism and gender or racial bias. Of course, the ATAR system isn't perfect, and I think there are plenty of valid criticisms, but I am yet to hear of a reasonable alternative.

My final point is in relation to the idea that the ATAR being a rank is a bad thing. Universities will inevitably rank applicants by academic performance, so I believe that having a system that can assess and balance academic performance across the whole state is far more equitable than leaving it to university discretion.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ashmi on April 09, 2020, 03:26:46 pm
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?
That's my thought process, but maybe people think if everyone does 'unscored' then everyone has equal chance to go to uni? It baffles me, because even if the entire state goes shit SOMEONE has to get the 99.95's and 99's etc

I do agree with this here! If people want to not get the ATAR, they can always do it unscored anyway.
The one thing the ATAR does well in comparison to other alternatives is that it lets you pick pretty much any subject (excluding the English prerequisite which makes sense). Compared to the IB, where you have to pick 3HLs/3SLs and in certain subject areas, at least people doing the ATAR can choose a certain area (e.g. maths/science-based or art-based subjects. They are not confined like IB).

That doesn't follow. One might dislike ATARs but want to do a course that requires a minimum ATAR for entry.
I don't have any evidence, but my hunch would be that there's very little variation from year to year in the academic ability of the 99.xx cohort. But you're right, the fact that ATAR is a ranking rather than a more direct measure of academic achievement is a significant problem.
There's also no reason to believe that removing ATARs would undermine the integrity of university admissions. Just require minimum standards of performance on prerequisite subjects - where "minimum standard" is not measured by study scores but by raw scores on exams.
I like a few points in this! Universities do have their own standards themselves and I feel like even if we did get rid of the ATAR system, having something like 'entrance exams' would pretty much be exactly the same as the ATAR to begin with, maybe even worse. It's like saying for some courses you need a "Study score of 25 in Methods", however, if we did get rid of the ATAR system, to begin with, and let's say look at the exams, they probably would raise the cut-off mark to be much higher than it is now (not all unis can accommodate everyone. Kinda like inflation if that makes sense?).

The ATAR gives you a chance to show your potential in not just prerequisites but also subjects you are passionate about. It gives you options to study a wide range of subjects that you are good at in order to get a good score. It does have its flaws here but overall, it gives you a chance to do well so long as you pick what you are good at.
Speaking of flaws, I would love to see something happen to VCE folio subjects which maybe go through an 'interview' stage, similar to Language orals exams rather than being assessed by one person. It would mean that folio scores would not have to be moderated by the end-of-year exam and that someone can get the score they truly deserve for their efforts. (Went a bit side track there).

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on April 09, 2020, 03:49:19 pm
-snip-
-snip-
Completely agree with both who make really good arguments.

Like TigerMum says the ATAR system is not perfect but it is a lot better than a lot of places elsewhere in the world. Whilst it is a 100% equitable system it does do really well to reduce the amount of corruption within the system (e.g. gender bias) by having one system.  Rather than each university having its own set of entry tests and thus biases. I think moving away from an ATAR at this point (with no real alternative proposed) will only exacerbate any inequalities. In addition to this if you scrap the ATAR you do need a better alternative to this and whatever this system is universities still need to rank students to determine admission.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 09, 2020, 04:08:35 pm
We do not need a system for ranking university applicants.

The only reason people think this is true is because this is currently how things work and because we have a federal government that is unwilling to provide the level of funding required for all academically able students to complete a degree of their choice.

Removing ATAR would not result in a vague / inequitable university admissions system (or at least anymore than it currently is). Simply set minimum academic standards (as judged by raw scores on VCE exams). There is no need for universities to set their own entrance exams.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ashmi on April 09, 2020, 04:28:04 pm
We do not need a system for ranking university applicants.

The only reason people think this is true is because this is currently how things work and because we have a federal government that is unwilling to provide the level of funding required for all academically able students to complete a degree of their choice.

Removing ATAR would not result in a vague / inequitable university admissions system (or at least anymore than it currently is). Simply set minimum academic standards (as judged by raw scores on VCE exams). There is no need for universities to set their own entrance exams.
This is an interesting point. :o (I love all these different opinions)

My two cents here, but you know how you said 'minimum academic standards' right? What happens when an exam is considered to be very difficult one year or really easy? Would universities change their 'minimum academic standards' or would it increase/decrease due to demand of how many people want to study a certain course?
This is also an economic issue too as we can't have everyone who passed the minimum academic standards get into the course they want (there are only so many spots) and when this does occur, would they still rank them from best to worst performing students? (or would they look at other stuff such as extra-curricular activities that you did in VCE?).
Also got a quick question, let's say you are a year 12 in 2020 and say that all the exams you did this year were hard (assume you barely passed the minimum academic standard thingy). Then let's say you had a gap year or something and then when you apply again, would they compare your scores based off the cohort you graduated from or the new cohort coming into uni who had easier exams?🤣 (I don't even know if what I said makes sense. Like how would you compare your scores to those that did the same subject in different years?)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 09, 2020, 05:13:21 pm
Making entrance exams would just mean another scholarship/selective type exam but for entry into higher education institutions. Leading to more coaching programs and tutoring opportunists -> further disadvantages -> still inaccurate in terms of estimating a student's subjective ability. Another way of putting this is it would be Naplan 3.0 (GAT being 2.0). There's always loopholes in the system.

We need to redefine education, it shouldn't be a form of business or a game of statistics OR ANYTHING THAT FITS THIS DESCRIPTION.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on April 09, 2020, 05:18:54 pm
All in all, I think scrapping the ATAR at this moment may not be such a great idea. Yes, the coronavirus will impact people - some more and some less, but I doubt they can come up with a better system in such a short amount of time, especially when we are already nearing the middle of the year. We need a way for universities to decide which applicants to accept, and for now the ATAR is probably the only feasible option. A different education system can always be created, considered and debated, but I don't think now is the time for that.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 09, 2020, 05:22:51 pm
A different education system can always be created, considered and debated, but I don't think now is the time for that.

VCAA ehm time for drafting, also VCAA or insert your state's department: haven't finished stuff from last year
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 09, 2020, 05:38:55 pm
I think after this is all over I'd like to think a new education system would be considered.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 09, 2020, 05:47:16 pm
I think after this is all over I'd like to think a new education system would be considered.

To be implemented for the 2022 cohort, to make things more viable.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: S_R_K on April 09, 2020, 06:19:18 pm
This is an interesting point. :o (I love all these different opinions)

My two cents here, but you know how you said 'minimum academic standards' right? What happens when an exam is considered to be very difficult one year or really easy? Would universities change their 'minimum academic standards' or would it increase/decrease due to demand of how many people want to study a certain course?

I don't think that's much of an issue. Looking at grade distributions on VCAA exams for past years, the variation in student performance is fairly small. Generally speaking, I think it is worse to deny entry to capable students than it is to grant entry to underprepared students, so it wouldn't be all that bad if universities slightly lowballed their entry requirements. (This wouldn't be any worse then the current system, where universities are already under lots of pressure to admit underprepared and incapable students, because they are competing for enrolments to achieve greater funding).

Universities could fix their own standards based upon how rigorous they want their courses to be, and what level they want the students to be at upon entry. 

Quote
This is also an economic issue too as we can't have everyone who passed the minimum academic standards get into the course they want (there are only so many spots)

This is the point that we (ie. people involved in education) need to push back against. There is no economic issue. The reason we currently don't allow any academically capable student to enrol in a course of their choice is that our federal government chooses not to adequately fund universities. They can afford it (the Australian government issues its own currency, so it has unlimited money). They choose not to.

Quote
Also got a quick question, let's say you are a year 12 in 2020 and say that all the exams you did this year were hard (assume you barely passed the minimum academic standard thingy). Then let's say you had a gap year or something and then when you apply again, would they compare your scores based off the cohort you graduated from or the new cohort coming into uni who had easier exams?🤣 (I don't even know if what I said makes sense. Like how would you compare your scores to those that did the same subject in different years?)

Use the same approach that currently works for students who defer their studies for a year.

Making entrance exams would just mean another scholarship/selective type exam but for entry into higher education institutions.

No it wouldn't. Use VCE exams (or HSC or whatever, if enrolling from interstate).

Coaching for exams is always a problem. Arguably the ATAR exacerbates the issue because students are competing against each other, so there is an incentive to not share resources.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 09, 2020, 07:38:10 pm
Coaching for exams is always a problem. Arguably the ATAR exacerbates the issue because students are competing against each other, so there is an incentive to not share resources.

Why must we hold that incentive? I believe the ATAR can be used as a means of providing students an understanding of how our corrupt society functions as a whole, and the covert and overt norms that feeds its toxicity.

No supply then no demand (silent movement).
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on April 09, 2020, 08:10:44 pm
This is the point that we (ie. people involved in education) need to push back against. There is no economic issue. The reason we currently don't allow any academically capable student to enrol in a course of their choice is that our federal government chooses not to adequately fund universities. They can afford it (the Australian government issues its own currency, so it has unlimited money). They choose not to.

Depends what end game you want.  If it's just for self-education, then yes, anyone can learn anything (at their own cost).  If the degrees are being taken with the eventual aim of contributing in some way to people being employable, paying taxes, etc. (a reasonable justification for government support), then letting anyone do anything they want won't necessarily assist in people getting the jobs they are aiming for.  Unless the Australian government is issuing jobs as well as currency.

Of course, this is already a problem with the existing system, as I understand universities aren't strongly incentivised to produce the "right number" of people for any field (which isn't an easy number to calculate in any case...)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: SS1314 on April 09, 2020, 09:09:31 pm

They can afford it (the Australian government issues its own currency, so it has unlimited money).

The government does NOT have 'unlimited money', it has an annual budget from which to make ends meet. Printing a crap ton of money is just a tax on savers and will cause more problems than solutions.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on April 10, 2020, 12:51:02 am
I've seen a few comments about the use of Year 11 marks, and I agree it sounds like a terrible idea (and I say that as a student who didn't know how not to be serious, and I think I got as good marks in Year 11 as Year 12).  It's a bad situation all round, and it's not your fault, and it sucks whichever solution they come up with.

However

Sometimes that's life.  Sometimes things don't work the way you expected or thought they would work.  Sometimes you are judged on performance at tasks that you thought were unimportant.  Sometimes your actions have consequences that neither you nor anyone else could foresee.  Personally, I've lost count of the number of times I've found the world didn't work as I'd been taught it would.  Some of them felt quite unfair, but that's life.

So many are affected: The person who switched jobs shortly before Covid-19 blew up and is now unemployed.  Or has found their job non-essential.  Or moved state or country and is unable to get unemployment benefits.  Or signed a new lease.  Or booked their dream holiday.  Or planned their wedding.  Or was on the verge of retiring and had their plans upset by the stock market crash.  Basically everyone has made plans or had goals or made decisions based on the world staying much the same as 2019, and clearly it isn't, and some are going to be in a better place to deal with that than others.

A friend in the US just made this comment:
Quote
Pro tip: Don't make huge life changes less than a year before a pandemic shuts the world down. It causes some complications.

And the same helpful "advice" applies for Year 12s now:
Quote
Pro tip: Don't do Year 12 in the year a pandemic shuts the world down. It causes some complications.

None of us planned or expected for 2020 to turn out like it has so far.  All of us have to figure out how to deal with it.  We're making it up as we go, and sadly some of the attempted solutions will hurt some more than others.  I'm not trying to suggest your pain doesn't matter, because it does.  But, whatever they come up with and whatever the situation looks like later in the year, we don't have an option for a normal Year 12 in 2020.  That's not fair, but it is life.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: www on April 10, 2020, 01:00:35 am
The government does NOT have 'unlimited money', it has an annual budget from which to make ends meet. Printing a crap ton of money is just a tax on savers and will cause more problems than solutions.

On top of this, the government keeps lowering the threshold of income for paying back HECS to reduce budget costs - and they'll probably keep doing so as unpaid student debt gets higher and higher. It's a real issue and part of why unis can't just admit everyone and give them all CSP positions or heavily subsidised education.

I don't think that's much of an issue. Looking at grade distributions on VCAA exams for past years, the variation in student performance is fairly small.

It's been years since I've looked at a grade distribution, but isn't the lack of noticeable change only due to the fact that VCAA adjust the thresholds for particular grades depending on the raw performance of students?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 11, 2020, 08:37:00 pm
My thoughts exactly. If someone truly believes that the ATAR should be scrapped, then they should have a proposition for a better system. I haven't heard a single idea for a better system. As opposed to straight standardised tests, the ATAR not only rewards aptitude, but hard work and persistence. If you don't plan to go to university, then you don't need to receive an ATAR.

The bottom line is that students need to be ranked in one way or another for university entrances, and I believe that looking at Year 12 results are the best way of doing it. Our system is vastly superior to countries like US, where they consider all sorts of things like extra-curricular activities and internships, which mostly benefits those who have parents that can fund those activities, (not to mention heaps of application essays that are just a competition of who can find the best application writer) and the ATAR completely avoids nepotism and gender or racial bias. Of course, the ATAR system isn't perfect, and I think there are plenty of valid criticisms, but I am yet to hear of a reasonable alternative.

My final point is in relation to the idea that the ATAR being a rank is a bad thing. Universities will inevitably rank applicants by academic performance, so I believe that having a system that can assess and balance academic performance across the whole state is far more equitable than leaving it to university discretion.
No atars should not be scrapped and in terms of uni entrance someone will have to miss out on their preferred courses because imagine what it would be like if everyone got into law/med/engineer. Academics in my opinion is the best way to rank students as oppose to the U.S system where other things are taken into consideration. I personally think the atar system is quite good (some flaws in it) however it was done its duty.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TheEagle on April 12, 2020, 01:08:01 am
Hey everyone!!

My school hasn't released a statement about what they're going to do during term 2. It is an independent school, does this mean they get to choose whether we go to school or not. James Merlino, the minister of education said every student should stay home if they can but I am not sure if he's directing his message to public schools or the whole lot...

What do you guys say?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Aaron on April 12, 2020, 02:06:11 am
Hey everyone!!

My school hasn't released a statement about what they're going to do during term 2. It is an independent school, does this mean they get to choose whether we go to school or not. James Merlino, the minister of education said every student should stay home if they can but I am not sure if he's directing his message to public schools or the whole lot...

What do you guys say?

Realistically it's directed at all schools.

All schools are required to stay open though for students who cannot be supervised to learn at home e.g. children of essential workers. Dan Tehan (Federal Education Minister) stated he will be enforcing the independent schools to remain open as part of their funding arrangements.

I would be very surprised if independent schools asked all students to come in, given the current social isolation restrictions in Victoria. Independent schools use what happens in government schools to assist in their decision making - e.g. salaries for teachers.. I would imagine this is no exception.

It is impossible to enforce social distancing in a school environment with all students present, particularly if it's a larger metro school.

Personally, I think it's very poor form that your school hasn't announced anything given how close it is until the Term resumes. We (my school) have been working on a plan for remote learning for just under a month now in the likelihood this would happen. I would also be very surprised if your school did not have a plan like this in place.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on April 12, 2020, 01:20:43 pm
No atars should not be scrapped and in terms of uni entrance someone will have to miss out on their preferred courses because imagine what it would be like if everyone got into law/med/engineer. Academics in my opinion is the best way to rank students as oppose to the U.S system where other things are taken into consideration. I personally think the atar system is quite good (some flaws in it) however it was done its duty.

Not everyone wants to do law/med/engineering (fortunately).  Though it's certainly possible far more people want to do them than society has a need for.  And so I completely agree with you.

However, your words do make me wonder what effect scrapping entry requirements would have on the idea of "Wasting your ATAR".  Currently, as I understand it, some people with very high marks do law/medicine because they feel they should or because of family pressure.  If there were no entry requirements, maybe more people with lower marks would do law/med, but more people with the highest marks would be free to do what they actually want to do.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on April 12, 2020, 02:46:38 pm
Not everyone wants to do law/med/engineering (fortunately).  Though it's certainly possible far more people want to do them than society has a need for.  And so I completely agree with you.

However, your words do make me wonder what effect scrapping entry requirements would have on the idea of "Wasting your ATAR".  Currently, as I understand it, some people with very high marks do law/medicine because they feel they should or because of family pressure.  If there were no entry requirements, maybe more people with lower marks would do law/med, but more people with the highest marks would be free to do what they actually want to do.

I would like to add that a very high proportion of students want to do law/med/dent/engineering (I mean, ~16,000 people took the UCAT last year), like you said. Scrapping entry requirements won't mean that people with higher marks are free to do what they want though, because there still needs to be some way for unis to rank students, and so people with lower marks are less likely to get in (I hope this makes sense). This may also make it easier for those with higher marks to get in if entry requirements are fully scrapped. It also means more people would apply for those positions and there would be more competition, which isn't necessarily a good thing. Also, there is a reason marks matter for uni courses. I totally understand that ATARs don't always correlate to great uni scores, but it's the best representation we have, so accepting anyone regardless of marks may not be seen as fair in the eyes of society/schools/students.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 12, 2020, 05:45:07 pm
Not everyone wants to do law/med/engineering (fortunately).  Though it's certainly possible far more people want to do them than society has a need for.  And so I completely agree with you.

However, your words do make me wonder what effect scrapping entry requirements would have on the idea of "Wasting your ATAR".  Currently, as I understand it, some people with very high marks do law/medicine because they feel they should or because of family pressure.  If there were no entry requirements, maybe more people with lower marks would do law/med, but more people with the highest marks would be free to do what they actually want to do.
In my opinion and mine alone, I prefer those with high scores to do the important courses like medicine for obvious reasons. I mean no one wants to have bad doctors or engineers ya know. Those with higher marks generally do not go into courses with lower entry scores because it takes away their pride and families would be very disappointed. Personally I am not a fan of people with lower scores to do medicine or courses of that level, since getting a low atar already told its own story. Yes, it is true an atar is not a reflection of future performance, but if someone gets a bad atar it does show lack of commitment.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on April 12, 2020, 09:20:20 pm
In my opinion and mine alone, I prefer those with high scores to do the important courses like medicine for obvious reasons. I mean no one wants to have bad doctors or engineers ya know. Those with higher marks generally do not go into courses with lower entry scores because it takes away their pride and families would be very disappointed. Personally I am not a fan of people with lower scores to do medicine or courses of that level, since getting a low atar already told its own story. Yes, it is true an atar is not a reflection of future performance, but if someone gets a bad atar it does show lack of commitment.

The reasons may not be as obviously correct as you think. It might, in theory, make sense to have 'smarter' people becoming doctors or engineers but this is not true for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the ATAR isn't even necessarily the perfect measure of someone's 'smartness'. Indeed, probably a better predictor of ATAR success is how rich your parents are rather than your IQ. You say a low ATAR tells its own 'story' and shows 'lack of commitment' but this is often very far from the truth. Here's a quick generalised example. Student A: Attends 5 different tutors for each subject, goes to a private school, has all the time in the world to study and has a plethora of resources at his/her disposal. Student B: Goes to a low SES school, has not even heard of external tutoring, works two jobs including night shifts sometimes just to help feed his/her family and barely gets time to study (or even a quiet place to do so). I'll let you imagine the difference in their outcomes. Another factor is that the entry requirements for the courses you mentioned are very high. Leaving behind the ATAR measure, are we really saying that a 95 scorer isn't 'good enough' for such a course, unlike a 99 scorer? A few ATAR points?

Here's a fun study for you to read --> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329408770_Selection_and_lottery_in_medical_school_admissions_who_gains_and_who_loses

In short, it showed there is often very little or non-existent differences in the future performance of medical students picked through a stratified lottery system compared to an entry score based one. Meanwhile, there were massive gains in the diversity of the students in turn benefitting society as a whole.

ETA: Probably doesn't belong here. Feel free to move this conversation to appropriate thread mods!

 



Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 12, 2020, 11:26:01 pm
Student A: Attends 5 different tutors for each subject, goes to a private school, has all the time in the world to study and has a plethora of resources at his/her disposal. Student B: Goes to a low SES school, has not even heard of external tutoring, works two jobs including night shifts sometimes just to help feed his/her family and barely gets time to study (or even a quiet place to do so). I'll let you imagine the difference in their outcomes.

Now that's an eye-opener. Expressing my appreciation that someone recognises this.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 13, 2020, 12:13:20 am
The reasons may not be as obviously correct as you think. It might, in theory, make sense to have 'smarter' people becoming doctors or engineers but this is not true for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the ATAR isn't even necessarily the perfect measure of someone's 'smartness'. Indeed, probably a better predictor of ATAR success is how rich your parents are rather than your IQ. You say a low ATAR tells its own 'story' and shows 'lack of commitment' but this is often very far from the truth. Here's a quick generalised example. Student A: Attends 5 different tutors for each subject, goes to a private school, has all the time in the world to study and has a plethora of resources at his/her disposal. Student B: Goes to a low SES school, has not even heard of external tutoring, works two jobs including night shifts sometimes just to help feed his/her family and barely gets time to study (or even a quiet place to do so). I'll let you imagine the difference in their outcomes. Another factor is that the entry requirements for the courses you mentioned are very high. Leaving behind the ATAR measure, are we really saying that a 95 scorer isn't 'good enough' for such a course, unlike a 99 scorer? A few ATAR points?

Here's a fun study for you to read --> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329408770_Selection_and_lottery_in_medical_school_admissions_who_gains_and_who_loses

In short, it showed there is often very little or non-existent differences in the future performance of medical students picked through a stratified lottery system compared to an entry score based one. Meanwhile, there were massive gains in the diversity of the students in turn benefitting society as a whole.

ETA: Probably doesn't belong here. Feel free to move this conversation to appropriate thread mods!
Sorry I didn't mean that in a bad way, I am saying it is in everyones best interest to have the strongest students do the most important courses just because lives are in their hands. Yes, what you said is very true, I understand peoples scenarios and can understand why some may not do well. Also wealth does not equal to doing well believe me, I heard stories of smart people getting bad grades and terrible atars. Also 99 and 95 can still do medicine, nothing against this. A bad atar is around 50's/60's range not 90's or 80's. Also in the wake of the corona virus pandemic there is so much uncertainty for the future and the thought of going to school online is freaking me out.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on April 13, 2020, 12:49:43 am
Sorry I didn't mean that in a bad way.

Thatís completely fine! I know you didnít mean in it in a bad way. I know I came across a bit stern but believe me, the views you express are not uncommon as they often do come from a good place. I can definitely understand the uncertainty and stress youíre facing too.

There was a point of time where I also considered the ATAR to be the gold standard measure and would have agreed with you regarding the ATAR requirements for certain courses. Itís important to always be critical of beliefs you might hold and be willing to open your mind to possibilities that may be against what you may think. Only that allowed someone like myself to be more understanding of factors such as privilege. We are all in a position to grow as people as long as we are open to it :)

Above all I think itís important to be respectful and not use terms such as Ďbadí to describe an ATAR. What might be low for you might be the dream scenario for another.


Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 15, 2020, 05:31:49 pm
This is the first lesson of online learning for me and it is disastrous. Heck I was planning on acing term 2 and so far things aren't going to plan. I lack a lot of self discipline and therefore I am already behind in school work AND IT IS THE FIRST DAY!!!! If things continue the way they are I think I am in for a bad year.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 15, 2020, 05:32:07 pm
Thatís completely fine! I know you didnít mean in it in a bad way. I know I came across a bit stern but believe me, the views you express are not uncommon as they often do come from a good place. I can definitely understand the uncertainty and stress youíre facing too.

There was a point of time where I also considered the ATAR to be the gold standard measure and would have agreed with you regarding the ATAR requirements for certain courses. Itís important to always be critical of beliefs you might hold and be willing to open your mind to possibilities that may be against what you may think. Only that allowed someone like myself to be more understanding of factors such as privilege. We are all in a position to grow as people as long as we are open to it :)

Above all I think itís important to be respectful and not use terms such as Ďbadí to describe an ATAR. What might be low for you might be the dream scenario for another.
Thank you for understanding  :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 15, 2020, 05:40:09 pm
This is the first lesson of online learning for me and it is disastrous. Heck I was planning on acing term 2 and so far things aren't going to plan. I lack a lot of self discipline and therefore I am already behind in school work AND IT IS THE FIRST DAY!!!! If things continue the way they are I think I am in for a bad year.

I really feel this, and it still feels like holidays so its really hard to get back in to the swing of things! It's so easy to not get anything done 😩
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: vox nihili on April 15, 2020, 07:00:04 pm
The reasons may not be as obviously correct as you think. It might, in theory, make sense to have 'smarter' people becoming doctors or engineers but this is not true for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the ATAR isn't even necessarily the perfect measure of someone's 'smartness'. Indeed, probably a better predictor of ATAR success is how rich your parents are rather than your IQ. You say a low ATAR tells its own 'story' and shows 'lack of commitment' but this is often very far from the truth. Here's a quick generalised example. Student A: Attends 5 different tutors for each subject, goes to a private school, has all the time in the world to study and has a plethora of resources at his/her disposal. Student B: Goes to a low SES school, has not even heard of external tutoring, works two jobs including night shifts sometimes just to help feed his/her family and barely gets time to study (or even a quiet place to do so). I'll let you imagine the difference in their outcomes. Another factor is that the entry requirements for the courses you mentioned are very high. Leaving behind the ATAR measure, are we really saying that a 95 scorer isn't 'good enough' for such a course, unlike a 99 scorer? A few ATAR points?

Here's a fun study for you to read --> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329408770_Selection_and_lottery_in_medical_school_admissions_who_gains_and_who_loses

In short, it showed there is often very little or non-existent differences in the future performance of medical students picked through a stratified lottery system compared to an entry score based one. Meanwhile, there were massive gains in the diversity of the students in turn benefitting society as a whole.

ETA: Probably doesn't belong here. Feel free to move this conversation to appropriate thread mods!

 





Very late to this conversation, but just want to ++++1 this. Plenty of research that underlines this (incl the article shared already of course):

This article looks specifically at medical admissions and the influence of SES and gender. It found that female gender and low SES saw students underrepresented, but that students from these backgrounds did not under perform their counterparts. Major weakness was that it focused on one medical school and on the UMAT, which has since changed.

This article looks at the relationship between SES and ENTER scores (ATAR replaced them in 2011). It finds a relationship, but again that students who are disadvantaged are not actually less talented. This one essentially found the same, but also found that disadvantaged students are no less likely to go to uni than their advantaged counterparts given the same ENTER scores.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TheEagle on April 18, 2020, 09:00:23 pm
What do y'all think VCAA will say in their statement on monday?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 18, 2020, 09:02:22 pm
What do y'all think VCAA will say in their statement on monday?
reiterate what they have already said, maybe something out releasing an exam calendar in the next month
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on April 20, 2020, 09:41:47 pm
reiterate what they have already said, maybe something out releasing an exam calendar in the next month

Ironically, this may even happen. Maybe even June. According to ludicrous rumours (which you can take with a grain of salt of course), online assessments aren't cutting it for the VCAA.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 21, 2020, 02:45:35 pm
Guys may I ask how are you communicating with your teachers? I feel I am not learning anything  :(
Our school uses something called Microsoft teams and so far I do not think it is working for me.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on April 21, 2020, 02:52:32 pm
Guys may I ask how are you communicating with your teachers? I feel I am not learning anything  :(
Our school uses something called Microsoft teams and so far I do not think it is working for me.
I wish my school was using Teams it a pretty good platform, im communicating w/ my teachers via email or hangouts (text) which is working really well and tagging teachers in comments on google docs if i need help with an essay or an assignment and they can comment back with feedback/explanation.
I use Teams for VicSRC and it works well, every new topic is a new post and you the chat works well too
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on April 21, 2020, 04:07:33 pm
I wish my school was using Teams it a pretty good platform, im communicating w/ my teachers via email or hangouts (text) which is working really well and tagging teachers in comments on google docs if i need help with an essay or an assignment and they can comment back with feedback/explanation.
I use Teams for VicSRC and it works well, every new topic is a new post and you the chat works well too
Thanks for the response.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: lm21074 on May 04, 2020, 11:05:51 pm
I've noticed that some schools are still doing graded SACs this term for Unit 3 subjects. Is it just my school that isn't?

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on May 05, 2020, 07:24:31 am
I've noticed that some schools are still doing graded SACs this term for Unit 3 subjects. Is it just my school that isn't?

My school is, and many other schools are. I've heard of some schools deciding not to do graded unit 3 SACs from ATARNotes. There are advantages/disadvantages to both sides. For us, we have technological difficulties, need to keep up study during isolation, etc. Those who aren't completing SACs right now will probably have to do a handful of SACs spaced very closely to each other as soon as they get back to school. Neither situation is ideal, but each school has autonomy over these decisions since VCAA has not prescribed any restrictions regarding this (yet another fault... this is something that should have been addressed a while ago if they truly wished to minimise the gap between under-resources schools and resourced schools) so schools can, in essence, do whatever they want.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on May 05, 2020, 09:02:22 am
I've noticed that some schools are still doing graded SACs this term for Unit 3 subjects. Is it just my school that isn't?

I potentially have to redo SACs done online this term in a school setting for authentication purposes. Meaning I have to do two variations of SACs to satisfy Outcomes.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: angrybiscuit on May 05, 2020, 11:20:46 am
I've noticed that some schools are still doing graded SACs this term for Unit 3 subjects. Is it just my school that isn't?
whys is right that schools can choose to approach internal assessments however they want as VCAA has not said anything in particular regarding how they should be run. My school is not doing SACs until the lockdown is lifted. This, of course, is not that great since we'll have a week or two blocked full of SACs. Also, if the lockdown is not lifted by then, then it will pose more problems in the long term.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on May 05, 2020, 11:59:58 am
whys is right that schools can choose to approach internal assessments however they want as VCAA has not said anything in particular regarding how they should be run. My school is not doing SACs until the lockdown is lifted. This, of course, is not that great since we'll have a week or two blocked full of SACs. Also, if the lockdown is not lifted by then, then it will pose more problems in the long term.
I think my school might be doing SACS online with cameras on. Honestly I hope this lockdown thing lifts quickly because I am not a fan of delaying SACS/test/projects.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TheEagle on May 07, 2020, 12:27:45 am
Hey guys


I notice on the ATARcalculator that the aggregate for 99.95 varies each year. How are these determined? Also does this mean you could get a 99.95 in certain years with just 5 subjects (having spesh as the only subject that scales above 50)? I ask this because I am curious to see if there will be any variation in the aggregate for 99.95 this year which would make it attainable with only 5 subjects.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on May 07, 2020, 01:36:54 am
Hey guys


I notice on the ATARcalculator that the aggregate for 99.95 varies each year. How are these determined? Also does this mean you could get a 99.95 in certain years with just 5 subjects (having spesh as the only subject that scales above 50)? I ask this because I am curious to see if there will be any variation in the aggregate for 99.95 this year which would make it attainable with only 5 subjects.
just depends on the aggregate cut off for 99.95

E.g. in 2019 the cut-off was 210.04
in 2018 it was 211.53

Just like in most cases, the same scores in two different years can yield different ATARs.

Whilst the ATAR is mathematically attainable with 5 subjects it is quite unlikely for someone to get it (not impossible though) for a number of reasons. 1) Obviously 99.95s are rare as it is whether you do 5 or 8 subjects. 2) Students will need close to perfect scores in their 5 subjects. This will need to include a perfect 50 in something like Spec or Latin (or something that goes to 55). 3) Students who are within the rang competing for these ATARs have a good foundation from previous years and will not likely only do 5 subjects.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on May 07, 2020, 12:02:09 pm
https://survey.zohopublic.com/zs/d9zkUd
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on May 10, 2020, 08:30:20 am
@brothanathan here are the results from the survey

(https://imgur.com/X6ns71C.png)(https://imgur.com/vgEamLd.png)(https://imgur.com/q1PSeJe.png)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on May 11, 2020, 04:20:36 pm
@brothanathan here are the results from the survey

definitely impacted Andrews today, not one bit. Safety is priority*
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on May 12, 2020, 08:18:50 am
UPDATE: Victorian schools expected to start soon!

Year 3-10: by June 9th
Year Prep-2, 11-12: May 26th

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on May 12, 2020, 08:29:37 am
UPDATE: Victorian schools expected to start soon!

Year 3-10: by June 9th
Year Prep-2, 11-12: May 26th

Very excited about this!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on May 12, 2020, 08:45:36 am
UPDATE: Victorian schools expected to start soon!

Year 3-10: by June 9th
Year Prep-2, 11-12: May 26th

Keen asf!
One thing I love about online learning tho is that sacs are less stressful cause you aren't surrounded by peers stressing and the super formal environment at school, so they are easier as I'm finding im not as stressed about SACs.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on May 12, 2020, 09:07:07 am
UPDATE: Victorian schools expected to start soon!

Year 3-10: by June 9th
Year Prep-2, 11-12: May 26th

Waiting on this two-week clearance now. Hopefully there won't be more community cases.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on May 21, 2020, 09:04:20 pm
They're bringing forward our exams, so our exams will start on the week of the 9th of November and they will be finished by the 2nd of December.

Finally, some dates set in!


Edit: Source: Dan Andrews Facebook page
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on May 21, 2020, 09:10:02 pm
They're bringing forward our exams, so our exams will start on the week of the 9th of November and they will be finished by the 2nd of December.

Finally, some dates set in!


Edit: Source: Dan Andrews Facebook page

Honestly so happy about this!

I take the GAT is on September 9th?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on May 21, 2020, 09:12:30 pm
Honestly so happy about this!

I take the GAT is on September 9th?

Not sure about the GAT, VCAA should hopefully update us with the specifics.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Chocolatemilkshake on May 21, 2020, 09:36:07 pm
They're bringing forward our exams, so our exams will start on the week of the 9th of November and they will be finished by the 2nd of December.

Finally, some dates set in!

Edit: Source: Dan Andrews Facebook page

Yeah I saw on the news! So happy, I was really not looking forward to exams intruding on what is supposed to be the best month of the year!
It makes sense seeing they cut a lot out from many of the content-heavy subjects. Also, a relief because it means we will get our results before 2020 ends and have a clearer pathway to where we want to head next year.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on May 21, 2020, 11:12:06 pm
They're bringing forward our exams, so our exams will start on the week of the 9th of November and they will be finished by the 2nd of December.

Finally, some dates set in!


Edit: Source: Dan Andrews Facebook page
I'm a bit mixed about the decision. I was really looking forward to having more time to prepare for exams, but I guess it is still a little extra than normal. We get the added bonus of having some content cut out so I guess that makes up for it.
Although, it will be nice to know that we will get a longer break.
When do we thing exams schedules are going to come out?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on May 22, 2020, 09:43:29 am
When do we thing exams schedules are going to come out?
Usually, come out in the last week of May if I remember correctly.
I'm also mixed about the decision as pushing back exams would allow us more revision and time to do praccy exams as I know my school finishes Unit 4 in like the first week of Term 4, but then again good to get them out of the way! Imagine if our exam period went from mid-December to mid-January :o
I also may have bought tickets to a concert a while ago thinking well if the exam time table stays the same I'll have done my exams and I'll be able to go.......now im not so sure (hopefully most of my exams are in the 'first half')

Not sure about the GAT, VCAA should hopefully update us with the specifics.

The date for the General Achievement Test has also now been confirmed as Wednesday 9 September 2020.
The 2020 VCE examination timetable will be published before the end of Term 2.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lilyyyy on May 22, 2020, 02:34:28 pm
I feel like I'm the only one upset about this...? I'm bothered by the fact that VCAA said the exams will be December and now they suddenly decided to change that, are they not worried about the backlash they may receive?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on May 22, 2020, 03:06:21 pm
I feel like I'm the only one upset about this...? I'm bothered by the fact that VCAA said the exams will be December and now they suddenly decided to change that, are they not worried about the backlash they may receive?
I can understand why you may be upset, but you should also note that VCAA has cut down at least a few weeks content from each subject's study designs, which makes up for the fact that the exams are a bit earlier than the expected date. I don't actually think VCAA confirmed that exams were in December - that was just an estimate but was it never explicitly stated that they would definitely occur in December. I doubt they'd receive much backlash, because from what I can see the decision has been well-received overall, although I can definitely see a group of people not being happy with this. No matter what decision VCAA makes, there will always be supporters and opposers anyway. I guess the only thing you can do is change your mindset and power on. There's also the positives too - more holidays and an earlier ATAR! :D
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on May 22, 2020, 04:09:42 pm
Any info about when the LOTE Oral exams will be? Same as usual or has it been adjusted?
https://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/administration/Key-dates/Pages/VCE-exam-timetable.aspx
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on May 23, 2020, 11:24:38 pm
The new GAT date doesn't help those who have trial exams in the same month (unless you see this as an opportunity for individual growth). If alterations aren't made, its time to brace for impact
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on May 24, 2020, 03:49:22 am
I am so excited to return to school, screw online learning. Honestly this whole Corona-Virus mumbo jumbo screwed me up a bit. My chemistry is like weeks behind, I did almost nothing for chemistry this whole term  :-\ :-\
Thank god I did well in some of my other subjects or else I might have to repeat this year again.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lilyyyy on May 24, 2020, 11:54:23 pm
My chemistry is like weeks behind

omg literally same, I'm so annoyed at how my teacher decided to teach chemistry during remote learning, especially I found chemistry so challenging
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on May 25, 2020, 07:51:02 pm
omg literally same, I'm so annoyed at how my teacher decided to teach chemistry during remote learning, especially I found chemistry so challenging
Oh boy same here, the videos recorded were so long. Legit the videos went for well over an hour and I just can't focus for that long. Chemistry was such a challenge during remote learning and honestly I think once I return to school my teacher is gonna be super mad. I barely did any work for chemistry for those 6 weeks in remote learning and I did nothing during the school holidays either. Opps
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Ionic Doc on May 25, 2020, 08:49:21 pm
Oh boy same here, the videos recorded were so long. Legit the videos went for well over an hour and I just can't focus for that long. Chemistry was such a challenge during remote learning and honestly I think once I return to school my teacher is gonna be super mad. I barely did any work for chemistry for those 6 weeks in remote learning and I did nothing during the school holidays either. Opps

I'm in the same boat but for English!
English is hard enough for me as it is and I just went straight downhill during remote learning  :'(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on May 26, 2020, 09:44:19 am
I'm in the same boat but for English!
English is hard enough for me as it is and I just went straight downhill during remote learning  :'(
Oh ouch, remote learning honestly was a pain in the ass for many people. I have a feeling those who do science and math subjects are disadvantaged because of remote learning, it is so hard to ask questions online and you don't get as much attention.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: angewina_naguen on May 26, 2020, 01:17:20 pm
Oh ouch, remote learning honestly was a pain in the ass for many people. I have a feeling those who do science and math subjects are disadvantaged because of remote learning, it is so hard to ask questions online and you don't get as much attention.

And this doesn't apply for other subjects?? lmao

I think people who do performing/visual arts and technology subjects, those that require specific resources from the school and actual face-to-face interactions would be so much more disadvantaged.

Thought I'd jump in as an outsider from the high school experience of COVID-19. Both points raised here are correct. Remote learning was never going to be a perfect alternative to in-person teaching. I completely see how every discipline can be impacted negatively by this pandemic so I think it's important to not invalidate each others' learning experiences because everyone is facing their own versions of hardship and struggle. While both of what you two have said hold truth and weight in their own ways, I don't think it's worth debating over this because to say certain subjects are more affected than others is how you start creating a hierarchy of subjects and prioritisation that's already a huge problem in the education system that we should steer away from contributing further to. Just something to think about because I think everyone is disadvantaged by the situation and we should all support one another, no matter what we are studying  :)

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on July 07, 2020, 04:41:20 pm
Update for Victoria
- Year 11/12 in metropolitan Melbourne + Mitchell Shire + Specialist Schools will go back to school as normal for term 3. I believe this also includes year 10 and below for their specific VCE subject if they are undertaking any.
- Prep to year 10 have their school holidays extended by 1 week in order for public health officials to gain more data to make a decision (remote learning is a possibility).

Thoughts on this?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on July 07, 2020, 05:12:04 pm
Update for Victoria
- Year 11/12 in metropolitan Melbourne + Mitchell Shire + Specialist Schools will go back to school as normal for term 3. I believe this also includes year 10 and below for their specific VCE subject if they are undertaking any.
- Prep to year 10 have their school holidays extended by 1 week in order for public health officials to gain more data to make a decision (remote learning is a possibility).

Thoughts on this?

Honestly seems like the best thing they can do atm while trying to be the least disruptive to peoples education. Government is very much stuck between a rock and a hard place
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: insanipi on July 07, 2020, 05:20:35 pm
From experience with the remote learning with both my youngest siblings (grades 2&3), if it goes back to that I just hope it is more than just worksheets that are hard to read because they're so faintly photocopied 😅 it was really hard to sustain their previous levels of enthusiasm for learning with that 🙈
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on July 07, 2020, 05:22:58 pm
I think that sounds like a pretty good idea, but I believe rather than having a possibility of remote learning for Prep - Year 10, I think they should make it Year 1 - Year 9, because Year prep is essential for preparing kids the fundamentals of subjects, and Year 10 is neccessary to prepare students for VCE or whatever course they plan on doing.

If when remote learning is officially announced, you know it's almost the end of the school year, and you are probably going  but you should spend some time figuring out Google Calendar, and add it as a desktop app. Sync it with all your calendars if you can, and make sure you have notifications on your devices turned on only for that and the essentials. Make sure you spend a few minutes every Sunday evening and every workday morning making plans for the day. Punch in all your classes, and have the calendar schedule your other activities automatically. It might sound like  a lot of toil, but once you've made it work to your advantage it's super efficient and also super liberating because you can focus on the content of your studies or leisures instead of being on a panic rut.



I have no idea what that second paragraph is getting at, but my two cents:

I don't think they should add prep and year 10 - prep because kids are less likely to socially distance due to them being less likely to understand the gravity of what's going on, and year 10 because year 10 kinda doesn't matter? You could make the argument it's nice to have a preparation year before things get hectic re:VCE, but year 11 is honestly designed to be a practice year on what VCE is like, which is why I think keeping year 11 is a good idea

Otherwise, I think I'm a fan of the incoming restrictions? Idk, kinda hard to be a "fan", more like they just seem reasonable enough, I guess. There's not really much else they can do about it - I do hope people don't complain as much to Daniel Andrews about "how we should be allowed out" now that they know what happens if he does let people out prematurely and they don't follow social distancing 😏

From experience with the remote learning with both my youngest siblings (grades 2&3), if it goes back to that I just hope it is more than just worksheets that are hard to read because they're so faintly photocopied 😅 it was really hard to sustain their previous levels of enthusiasm for learning with that 🙈

Yeah look, they really should've put out some materials to help teachers learn to engage over the internet - or maybe teachers need to learn to be better at trying to engage over the internet. Who knows, hopefully the extra week of holidays can be used to help with this
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TigerMum on July 07, 2020, 05:42:27 pm
I'm mostly satisfied with this response. I'm aware of the difference in danger/risk of COVID-19 among children compared to adults but I still find it weird that we can't gather in groups of three outside school but then spend hours each day in one room with over 20 people.  :)
To be honest, I'm just happy that we aren't being sent home again, online SACs would have been an absolute nightmare.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: 1729 on July 07, 2020, 06:00:14 pm
I'm mostly satisfied with this response. I'm aware of the difference in danger/risk of COVID-19 among children compared to adults but I still find it weird that we can't gather in groups of three outside school but then spend hours each day in one room with over 20 people.  :)
To be honest, I'm just happy that we aren't being sent home again, online SACs would have been an absolute nightmare.
Yeah, the response was alright, but when they lifted restrictions last term, I was actually nervous that they were easing restrictions so fast, it's almost like the government wants a second wave (which they now got) At the same time I also understand the burden of the economic stagnation. But look, now the outcome is worst than what it would've been if they kept the restrictions, now the second wave has hit. A trend that I hope is only an anomaly.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on July 07, 2020, 06:24:36 pm
Update for Victoria
- Year 11/12 in metropolitan Melbourne + Mitchell Shire + Specialist Schools will go back to school as normal for term 3. I believe this also includes year 10 and below for their specific VCE subject if they are undertaking any.
- Prep to year 10 have their school holidays extended by 1 week in order for public health officials to gain more data to make a decision (remote learning is a possibility).

Thoughts on this?
Wow those year 9 and under are so lucky. My year 9 or under self would be so happy with this. I really hate going into lockdown tho, it sucks. Someone please help me I can't cope with this anymore :(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on July 07, 2020, 07:10:02 pm
Wow those year 9 and under are so lucky. My year 9 or under self would be so happy with this. I really hate going into lockdown tho, it sucks. Someone please help me I can't cope with this anymore :(

While you may receive some great support over forums, it would be best to make use of an actual professional who can go into specifics of the difficulties you are facing and provide you with help. It may be difficult to access in-person help so a good start would be one of the below. These are free and confidential.

Kids helpline (1800 55 1800)

Beyond blue (1300 22 4636)

Headspace (1800 650 890)

Almost everyone reading this will be at some level affected by the current pandemic. We could all use someone to talk to whether it be a friend you trust or someone from the above who is trained. Please look out for each other and especially yourselves during this time physically, socially, and mentally.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 07, 2020, 09:04:00 pm
Thoughts on this?
Not much, to be completely honest. We had this coming for us, and there's nothing else we can do except contain the spread before it becomes too late and we end up like the US or the UK (which we definitely do not want). It's great they're still giving VCE students the opportunity to attend school in-person though, hopefully it stays that way and the number of new cases each day declines after these lockdown measures. I'm glad they are issuing a lockdown now, though. Hopefully, the spread of the virus diminishes!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on July 07, 2020, 09:37:42 pm
Thoughts on this?

Def a fair call - I for one was quite worried when restrictions started being eased.

Would be so great if this can get suppressed after this lockdown. Also, fair call for the VCE students. If I remember correctly he said something about keeping a fair ground between Regional and Metro Vic so I think it was a good idea.

However, I'm still quite worried about the prospect of returning to school - social distancing did not happen at all last time so I hope that a small attempt is made this time around to social distance a little bit!

Anyway, overall, happy with the decisions  :D (for now - hopefully we wont have to go back to online learning! Would be nice to finish this year off properly.)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Stormbreaker-X on July 07, 2020, 11:45:12 pm
While you may receive some great support over forums, it would be best to make use of an actual professional who can go into specifics of the difficulties you are facing and provide you with help. It may be difficult to access in-person help so a good start would be one of the below. These are free and confidential.

Kids helpline (1800 55 1800)

Beyond blue (1300 22 4636)

Headspace (1800 650 890)

Almost everyone reading this will be at some level affected by the current pandemic. We could all use someone to talk to whether it be a friend you trust or someone from the above who is trained. Please look out for each other and especially yourselves during this time physically, socially, and mentally.
Thanks mate.
-Replying to you all, I gotta agree that the lockdowns are there. Even tho it means my life will be different again, we definitely do not want to end up like other nations. Honestly I think we are the only state to have this much cases, some states don't has a case for months now.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on July 08, 2020, 09:27:38 am
At this stage, I honestly wouldn't be complaining if we went back to online learning. If we have to go back into full lockdown to get COVID under control then I'm all for it, I'd rather that so that we can get back to 'normal' sooner.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: MoonChild1234 on July 08, 2020, 12:08:25 pm
i agree with you J_Rho!

as much as it sucks to be in lockdown in our final years at school, if it means we can sooner go back to normal, i'm all for it!

i do appreciate that they are trying their best to maintain some structure for the year 11s and 12s, and its really great how swiftly action is being taken

also, as much as i'm looking forward to going outside normally, i'm more looking forward to a time when the palpable state of constant stress and tension subsides and it will feel normal to accidentally brush past someone on public transport or at the shops and not freak out  :(

fingers crossed the number of new cases go down soon
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on July 08, 2020, 01:40:44 pm
Otherwise, I think I'm a fan of the incoming restrictions? Idk, kinda hard to be a "fan", more like they just seem reasonable enough, I guess. There's not really much else they can do about it - I do hope people don't complain as much to Daniel Andrews about "how we should be allowed out" now that they know what happens if he does let people out prematurely and they don't follow social distancing 😏

I don't think people sufficiently factor in the influence of luck in how things go when numbers are small.  Yes, mistakes were made here (in hotel quarantine most obviously), and the blame game has started on Victorian compliance generally, but I don't believe that Victoria are somehow 100 times worse at following the guidelines than everyone else, or that we eased restrictions prematurely when other states didn't (my memory is that in mid-May I thought we were in a better position than NSW, and they were easing restrictions faster than us).

The simple reality is that if the numbers are low, most people can break the guidelines most of the time and get away with it because they don't happen to come into contact with someone who has it.  And for me in the Eastern suburbs it is probably still that way - there is a fair chance that I could break all the rules and still not come into contact with anyone having the disease, and thus not catch it (no, I'm not recommending breaking rules - just saying that a "personal responsibility" narrative doesn't take into account differences between individuals and states that have more to do with luck than culpability.  Just because we want someone to blame doesn't mean the blame is actually fair).

So long as we keep the current "suppression rather than elimination" policy (which we kind of have to do) I'd be amazed if places like Sydney and Brisbane don't have spikes at some point in the next year when one or more things go wrong and a few cases slip under the radar for too long.  And how big those spikes become depends on how well state authorities do test and trace after detecting it and how well people in the state are following guidelines - but it will also depend a lot on luck.

Yeah, the response was alright, but when they lifted restrictions last term, I was actually nervous that they were easing restrictions so fast, it's almost like the government wants a second wave (which they now got) At the same time I also understand the burden of the economic stagnation. But look, now the outcome is worst than what it would've been if they kept the restrictions, now the second wave has hit. A trend that I hope is only an anomaly.

As above, my memory is that we eased restrictions slower than other states, and the easing of restrictions was data driven and proportionate to the number of cases we then had.  Just like this lockdown is data driven.

also, as much as i'm looking forward to going outside normally, i'm more looking forward to a time when the palpable state of constant stress and tension subsides and it will feel normal to accidentally brush past someone on public transport or at the shops and not freak out  :(

Yes, and this has always been the problem with the argument "If you just re-open the economy, things will be back to normal".  I suspect after a second lockdown we may be even more eager to get back to normal, but at the same time take longer to convince ourselves things are actually OK.  Which is why the National Cabinet was trying to avoid re-opening and then closing again, though the level of community transmission makes this a more serious problem than we've seen so far and needs action.

I'm mostly satisfied with this response. I'm aware of the difference in danger/risk of COVID-19 among children compared to adults but I still find it weird that we can't gather in groups of three outside school but then spend hours each day in one room with over 20 people.  :)
To be honest, I'm just happy that we aren't being sent home again, online SACs would have been an absolute nightmare.

The "children are safe, so don't close schools" (though young adults may be among the biggest spreaders) has always been an interesting argument, because there's such an age range in school-goers.  I was interested that yesterday Brett Sutton acknowledged that attendees in upper high school had more "adult-like" transmission patterns at the same time as agreeing for Year 11 and 12 to return to school.  Part of it was that they can get to school themselves and don't have parents mingling at drop-off etc., and part of it is of course that even if Year 12s are higher risk there are also considered to be more benefits from in-person learning for Year 12s.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on July 08, 2020, 04:21:02 pm
I don't think people sufficiently factor in the influence of luck in how things go when numbers are small.  Yes, mistakes were made here (in hotel quarantine most obviously), and the blame game has started on Victorian compliance generally, but I don't believe that Victoria are somehow 100 times worse at following the guidelines than everyone else, or that we eased restrictions prematurely when other states didn't (my memory is that in mid-May I thought we were in a better position than NSW, and they were easing restrictions faster than us).

The simple reality is that if the numbers are low, most people can break the guidelines most of the time and get away with it because they don't happen to come into contact with someone who has it.  And for me in the Eastern suburbs it is probably still that way - there is a fair chance that I could break all the rules and still not come into contact with anyone having the disease, and thus not catch it (no, I'm not recommending breaking rules - just saying that a "personal responsibility" narrative doesn't take into account differences between individuals and states that have more to do with luck than culpability.  Just because we want someone to blame doesn't mean the blame is actually fair).

So long as we keep the current "suppression rather than elimination" policy (which we kind of have to do) I'd be amazed if places like Sydney and Brisbane don't have spikes at some point in the next year when one or more things go wrong and a few cases slip under the radar for too long.  And how big those spikes become depends on how well state authorities do test and trace after detecting it and how well people in the state are following guidelines - but it will also depend a lot on luck.

As above, my memory is that we eased restrictions slower than other states, and the easing of restrictions was data driven and proportionate to the number of cases we then had.  Just like this lockdown is data driven.

Yes, and this has always been the problem with the argument "If you just re-open the economy, things will be back to normal".  I suspect after a second lockdown we may be even more eager to get back to normal, but at the same time take longer to convince ourselves things are actually OK.  Which is why the National Cabinet was trying to avoid re-opening and then closing again, though the level of community transmission makes this a more serious problem than we've seen so far and needs action.

The "children are safe, so don't close schools" (though young adults may be among the biggest spreaders) has always been an interesting argument, because there's such an age range in school-goers.  I was interested that yesterday Brett Sutton acknowledged that attendees in upper high school had more "adult-like" transmission patterns at the same time as agreeing for Year 11 and 12 to return to school.  Part of it was that they can get to school themselves and don't have parents mingling at drop-off etc., and part of it is of course that even if Year 12s are higher risk there are also considered to be more benefits from in-person learning for Year 12s.

Sorry - I didn't intend to imply that we DID stop restrictions early. If anything, Victoria has been one of the forerunners in stopping quickly and coming back slowly - Daniel Andrews was putting in restrictions back when Scott Morrison was saying there was nothing to worry about (was kinda funny when one day Andrews would say "we're going to have to ask people to work from home when able", and then the next Morrison was saying to continue business as normal). And as you say, when NSW were easing off, we were still going strong. You're right that it's partly luck based, but there IS something to be said that this likely happened because someone, somewhere, broke compliance - WHY they did it or WHO they are is neither here nor there. What's important is that we do something about it, which is happening.

As to my point on what happens if we let people out prematurely - if this happened DESPITE following proper protocol, imagine how much worse off we'd have been if we had come out of restrictions early. I just feel bad for Andrews - he's trying his best in a shit situation, things go wrong because of reasons entirely outside of his control, and everyone's complaining. And even before the spike, there were so many people complaining and telling him off. I just want less hate on my boy :'(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 10, 2020, 09:06:19 pm
Is anyone else scared to go back to school? I'm not sure if I'm for going back to school again anymore... I really don't want to pass the virus onto any members of my family who are more at-risk than me if I do end up being an asymptomatic carrier. Is this just going to be an endless cycle of ramping up restrictions then relaxing them over and over until a suitable vaccine is developed? I'm seeing people who don't take social distancing seriously at all, and it really worries me. Is looking at the US and UK not enough of an incentive for the public to do their part in containing the spread of the virus?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on July 10, 2020, 09:54:17 pm
Is anyone else scared to go back to school? I'm not sure if I'm for going back to school again anymore... I really don't want to pass the virus onto any members of my family who are more at-risk than me if I do end up being an asymptomatic carrier. Is this just going to be an endless cycle of ramping up restrictions then relaxing them over and over until a suitable vaccine is developed? I'm seeing people who don't take social distancing seriously at all, and it really worries me. Is looking at the US and UK not enough of an incentive for the public to do their part in containing the spread of the virus?

Yes. Getting more terrified by the day actually - the cases are increasing like crazy.....

Not so much worried about myself getting it, but as you said, I'm horribly worried for my family members. Especially since I'll be the only one going out, I really dont want to bring anything home that could be avoided!

As much as I'd like to go back to school, I'm getting worried. I'm willingly to sacrifice a few learning weeks at school and work hard at home myself, if that means helping stop the spread of the virus and avoiding bringing anything home.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: 1729 on July 12, 2020, 11:43:18 am
Most Victorian students will return to remote learning in term three, with those in years prep to 10.

It has been officially announced that we are returning back to remote learning (those in year prep - 10)

What do you think about this?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Umar but with O on July 12, 2020, 12:52:13 pm
Most Victorian students will return to remote learning in term three, with those in years prep to 10.

It has been officially announced that we are returning back to remote learning (those in year prep - 10)

What do you think about this?

Noice!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on July 12, 2020, 01:03:50 pm
Most Victorian students will return to remote learning in term three, with those in years prep to 10.

It has been officially announced that we are returning back to remote learning (those in year prep - 10)

What do you think about this?
kind of inevitable tbh given the vast majority of the students from prep-10 would need a parent taking them to and from school. Also the inherent increased difficulty of instilling social distancing with those that are younger.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: insanipi on July 12, 2020, 01:36:54 pm
Most Victorian students will return to remote learning in term three, with those in years prep to 10.

It has been officially announced that we are returning back to remote learning (those in year prep - 10)

What do you think about this?
Inevitable, but doesn't stop my parents going nooooooooooooo because I'm not around much to help out this time (as it currently stands) 😂😅
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: angrybiscuit on July 12, 2020, 09:46:54 pm
Not sure if this is unique to my friends' experience but a worrying number of teachers are choosing to stay at home. While of course they are entitled to work from home should they feel they are at risk, how will VCAA account for the fact that some students essentially did not have a present teacher for the majority of the year? I really feel bad for them because they essentially have "online school" but at school and have to learn many things independently. Not to mention the fact that they falling so behind in terms of content... this year is such a mess can I just hibernate to 2021
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 12, 2020, 09:51:32 pm
this year is such a mess can I just hibernate to 2021
Even if you do 'hibernate' to 2021, I doubt it will be any better... it's impossible to completely ease restrictions until there is a suitable cure or vaccine, unfortunately. And by the looks of it, a vaccine is not going to available in the near future - we can only hope that there's a successful one at the end of this year. If not, the start of 2021 is not looking to be any less bleak.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on July 13, 2020, 09:05:07 pm
Even if you do 'hibernate' to 2021, I doubt it will be any better... it's impossible to completely ease restrictions until there is a suitable cure or vaccine, unfortunately. And by the looks of it, a vaccine is not going to available in the near future - we can only hope that there's a successful one at the end of this year. If not, the start of 2021 is not looking to be any less bleak.

Even if there are one or more effective vaccine candidates by the end of the year, scaling it up to the world population will be a non-trivial job that takes time.  Even if countries like Australia and the US grab control of a lot of the supply (which I'm hearing is what happened with the swine flu vaccine 10 years ago - and did not make us popular), just getting it manufactured and administered to everyone needing it (most of the population if you want some kind of herd immunity...) will take time.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 13, 2020, 09:14:08 pm
Even if there are one or more effective vaccine candidates by the end of the year, scaling it up to the world population will be a non-trivial job that takes time.  Even if countries like Australia and the US grab control of a lot of the supply (which I'm hearing is what happened with the swine flu vaccine 10 years ago - and did not make us popular), just getting it manufactured and administered to everyone needing it (most of the population if you want some kind of herd immunity...) will take time.
This is true. But don't they already have stuff that they've been testing, at any rate?
this year is such a mess can I just hibernate to 2021
I know other people have already said this but - this thing ain't going away soon. Everyone seems to talk about it like everything'll be fine by the end of the year, exams and so forth, and yet that's not how it looks.
Why can't we just do hard lockdown - as in, no one sees anyone else for two weeks, no contact at all, and then test everyone? Then the people who come in positive can be kept home (by force if needed) and everyone else can go about their merry way. Or three weeks to be safe.
Year 12 this year is interesting, no doubt about it. A mix of good and bad for us kids. I do like not having all the other students around at the moment though... but that's probably my introversion speaking. And probably not good anyway.
All my subjects are right now up to date with where we should be without COVID - in other words, with it, for my class, this is better. Hmm... ???
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 13, 2020, 09:31:35 pm
This is true. But don't they already have stuff that they've been testing, at any rate?
Yes - everyone has been in a mad scramble to be the first to commercialise a successful vaccine, because not only will it prevent everyone from being affected by COVID, but also it'll make them quite rich, haha. However, producing and trialling vaccines is a long process - every time the developing vaccine is found to be unsuitable, they have to scrap it and start over. Like turinturambar stated, distribution also isn't easy, and poses the question of who gets vaccinated first and if those in poverty will even have access to the vaccine.

Why can't we just do hard lockdown - as in, no one sees anyone else for two weeks, no contact at all, and then test everyone? Then the people who come in positive can be kept home (by force if needed) and everyone else can go about their merry way. Or three weeks to be safe.
I think this is because hard lockdown for any period of time will significantly worsen the already damaged economy, and the government cares about the economy a lot. I also don't think many people would be keen to do this, because there's the whole thing of if the virus is contained early and infections drop, people will criticise it as too much, and if restrictions are imposed too late and too lax, then people will criticise it as too little. I think this was also discussed on the other thread about Victoria's lockdown measures. There's also a shortage of testing kits, iirc?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on July 13, 2020, 09:56:11 pm
Interestingly, my house mate just told me that Victoria is tossing up the idea of complete elimination.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on July 13, 2020, 10:20:34 pm
I feel like this is moving a little bit away from education but nonetheless

Retrospectively it looks like we should've gone with the elimination strategy from the start. Given Australia has no borders with other countries and at the beginning only had minimal community transmission it becomes an ideal country to go for the elimination strategy. However, looking back I don't think a lot of the general public would've accepted this and would've said it is an overreaction. Even with the initial lockdown it was quite possible to be done once we got to low levels in Victoria but everyone was complaining about the need to open up quickly.

The health first response would be elimination. I am seeing a lot of epidemiologists and health officials say that if we go for that strategy we should go for it within the next month.

The economy vs health argument is interesting. We have already seen some countries that have prioritised the economy but they are still getting destroyed regardless. Australia has done ok to somewhat artificially prop up the economy via stimulus payments but once this is all over the real impact of the pandemic is likely to be seen.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on July 14, 2020, 12:57:01 am
This is true. But don't they already have stuff that they've been testing, at any rate?

As I understand it, the usual vaccine development process is measured in years.  This is already fast.  There are multiple rounds of testing, testing things like is it safe, does it actually provide immunity, does it have unexpected side effects, etc.  Typically these things would be done in serial - we're trying to do them more in parallel, but there are still limits to how fast you can go.

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Why can't we just do hard lockdown - as in, no one sees anyone else for two weeks, no contact at all, and then test everyone? Then the people who come in positive can be kept home (by force if needed) and everyone else can go about their merry way. Or three weeks to be safe.

What's the false positive rate on those tests?  And the false negative rate?  Who's administering them?  And processing them?  How long does it take to test everyone? (took multiple days for a few towers, remember)  Are any of the people administering them sick?  How do you know there's no-one tested who has contracted it but are not quite infectious yet?  Are the people keeping other people home by force not sick?  Can they ensure the integrity of their protective equipment while also restraining someone?

During this hard lockdown, who's taking care of people in hospitals?  Aged care homes?  People feeling suicidal from the enforced isolation?  People in quarantine hotels?  Who's delivering babies?  Who's stopping the people who inevitably break that lockdown?  What's the correct response to domestic violence in lockdown?  Who's keeping electricity running?  Water?  Other essential services?

And that's just off the top of my head.  The four reasons aren't just government being too nice: There are good reasons for each of them.  We can certainly debate whether we should have a harder lockdown than we have now - I'm not convinced that the benefits would outweigh the personal and community costs of going too much harder, and I think you'd get outright rebellion if you presented it as the plan that solved everything and it turned out not to.  But to say we can 100% stop society for 2 weeks - we just can't.

That said, I do find it odd that this situation in Melbourne is more serious than it was in April, and yet the restrictions are slightly less restrictive.  I suspect part of that is that the authorities are (correctly) wary of lockdown fatigue.  The best rules in the world don't help if you can't convince enough of your population to follow them.

Like turinturambar stated, distribution also isn't easy, and poses the question of who gets vaccinated first and if those in poverty will even have access to the vaccine.

In a country like Australia, we likely have the resources to give it to everyone, poverty or not, and doing so is likely to reduce the risk for everyone in Australia (particularly if the early vaccines are more like 60 - 70% effective).  We will probably rely on the fact that we can largely keep out unvaccinated people, and so people in poverty stricken countries without the vaccine will not be as significant a risk to Australians.  Not saying this is a good thing, just that I've been profoundly disappointed by how much Covid-19 has shown off our human insularity, pitting country against country, state against state, return travellers against people already in the country, community against community, etc.

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I think this is because hard lockdown for any period of time will significantly worsen the already damaged economy, and the government cares about the economy a lot.

This has been Fed vs State the entire time.  The Feds have more responsibility for the economy, the states more responsibility for health.  They've worked together better than in some countries, but Victoria and NSW in particular have throughout been stricter than national or the other states.

Retrospectively it looks like we should've gone with the elimination strategy from the start. Given Australia has no borders with other countries and at the beginning only had minimal community transmission it becomes an ideal country to go for the elimination strategy. However, looking back I don't think a lot of the general public would've accepted this and would've said it is an overreaction. Even with the initial lockdown it was quite possible to be done once we got to low levels in Victoria but everyone was complaining about the need to open up quickly.

I still don't get how this squares with Covid-19 jumping out of quarantine hotels.  Maybe that happened before we eased lockdown - I'm not 100% sure any more - but while there remains the possibility of errors, there remains the possibility of errors with serious consequences after we've declared it eliminated.  NZ, poster child of elimination, have had people get out of quarantine on multiple occasions, at least one where someone was positive.  They haven't had spikes as a result (that I know of), but is that 100% good management, or is there some luck as well?  We had people going through quarantine hotels in Melbourne then testing positive in NT and NSW, and I don't think we know whether they caught it in hotspot suburbs once out of quarantine, or whether it was still dormant somewhere inside them (we do know people can be ill for months after catching it while testing negative - does that manifest in any other strange ways that end up contagious?)

I have long felt we should drive it as close to zero as we can get it and try to keep it there, including border control as one of our most effective measures, but I'm not sure I believe in complete elimination with absolutely zero human error (though one of the advantages of driving it towards zero is that you can make more mistakes without consequences - because I still believe other states and other individuals within other states have made mistakes, but got away with those mistakes because they had a low virus load and maybe got a bit lucky).

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The economy vs health argument is interesting. We have already seen some countries that have prioritised the economy but they are still getting destroyed regardless. Australia has done ok to somewhat artificially prop up the economy via stimulus payments but once this is all over the real impact of the pandemic is likely to be seen.

Part of the problem is that governments cannot by fiat declare that their citizens will not be scared of Covid-19 or of unemployment.  Many people were reducing their economic activity before official lockdowns, and that hits the economy.  Then of course businesses close and companies lay off workers (less here with JobKeeper, but it's still an issue).  Then people feel less certain about the security of their jobs and are more worried about spending, and the cycle continues.  I largely agreed with Scott Morrison's "once you start re-opening you should try not to close again", because it shatters confidence re-closing and that will have long-term consequences - but we always knew that there could be situations serious enough to have to go backwards.  Without the quarantine hotels here, maybe Victoria would have avoided spikes too.  No idea.  Rightly or wrongly, I did feel fairly safe in Melbourne in June, though I didn't go out of my way to join gatherings of people (other than family) or to eat in (or even to get my hair cut :P ).

When I compare us with, say, the US, the US has many states which reopened against the health advice because of the economy, and quite a few are now re-closing.  We re-opened following health advice, and, as I said, I at least thought it was tracking fairly well for the first month...

Finally, I can see in retrospect that a number of times during this pandemic my opinion has been wrong - so don't trust my judgement in public health matters :P
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 16, 2020, 09:25:42 am
What's the false positive rate on those tests?  And the false negative rate?  Who's administering them?  And processing them?  How long does it take to test everyone? (took multiple days for a few towers, remember)  Are any of the people administering them sick?  How do you know there's no-one tested who has contracted it but are not quite infectious yet?  Are the people keeping other people home by force not sick?  Can they ensure the integrity of their protective equipment while also restraining someone?

During this hard lockdown, who's taking care of people in hospitals?  Aged care homes?  People feeling suicidal from the enforced isolation?  People in quarantine hotels?  Who's delivering babies?  Who's stopping the people who inevitably break that lockdown?  What's the correct response to domestic violence in lockdown?  Who's keeping electricity running?  Water?  Other essential services?
I know these are issues, I knew it when I said it. It doesn't change the fact that that could be the best policy.
'Outright rebellion' - in a world that is more connected than ever before, I think we're just too much used to our own way! I get that it's hard, I get it, I get it, but seriously? In preparing for it, aren't we basically telling people we expect them to break rules in such a way that we'll probably end up with several people dead? In the past they would've done it, wouldn't've expected to break rules (except for a minority) and wouldn't have the ability to contact others as we can. Granted, this is unprecendented, but we've had smaller-scale things than this before and stuck to the rules. Is it unreasonable to class us Generation Wimp?
(or even to get my hair cut :P ).
We could tell :P ;)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on July 16, 2020, 11:12:56 pm
I know these are issues, I knew it when I said it. It doesn't change the fact that that could be the best policy.

If it's unworkable it's not the best policy.

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'Outright rebellion' - in a world that is more connected than ever before, I think we're just too much used to our own way! I get that it's hard, I get it, I get it, but seriously? In preparing for it, aren't we basically telling people we expect them to break rules in such a way that we'll probably end up with several people dead? In the past they would've done it, wouldn't've expected to break rules (except for a minority) and wouldn't have the ability to contact others as we can. Granted, this is unprecendented, but we've had smaller-scale  things than this before and stuck to the rules. Is it unreasonable to class us Generation Wimp?

Absolutely it's unreasonable to class us Generation Wimp.  Talking about people dying isn't necessarily helpful when I identified multiple ways your suggestion could put people at risk of dying.  And what makes you think  you'd find greater compliance in past generations than now?

But you took two words way out of context.  Read the sentence again.  This isn't about obedience, it's about trust.  I have said from the start that it's dangerous to say "If everyone obeys, we will get through this quicker", because I'm not convinced it's true.  Statistically, it's probably somewhat true, but it ignores the impact of luck on spread, and it leads almost inevitably to a blame game when we don't actually get through it faster, or when (like this time) we go back into lock-down again when we were implicitly promised last time that our tighter restrictions in Victoria would make Victoria safer than the other states.  I understand why they do it - to try and incentivise better compliance - but they're making implicit promises that they can't actually fulfil.

I think this is a lot worse with your proposal: Yes, I think a large percentage of Victorians would agree to harsher restrictions over a few weeks over lighter restrictions over 6+ weeks.  But to make that deal, the government has to essentially guarantee that the harsh restrictions will be successful.  And they can't.  If they succeed, great.  But if they fail, how many people will trust them to get it right next time?  Lighter restrictions over a longer period of time allows them to adjust restrictions and choose a re-open date in response to the data, rather than making a one-off gamble and hoping it works out.

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We could tell :P ;)

Walking to my local grocery store to get groceries and exercise today, I walked past the hairdresser I usually use.  They were closed with a sign on the door that one of their clients was a contact of a Covid-19 positive case, so they were waiting for test results before re-opening.  I joked with a co-worker that I wouldn't get my hair cut this year.  This may well end up true.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 17, 2020, 02:08:14 pm
If it's unworkable it's not the best policy.
Perhaps. But I contend that it isn't unworkable - just difficult.
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Absolutely it's unreasonable to class us Generation Wimp.  Talking about people dying isn't necessarily helpful when I identified multiple ways your suggestion could put people at risk of dying.  And what makes you think  you'd find greater compliance in past generations than now?
We're too used to being able to do everything we want. I do think we'd have greater compliance in past generations. For one, they were more used to being forced to make do - something we aren't. There was this thing called 'grin and bear it', 'stiff upper lip'. You notice it isn't extant any more?
But more importantly, older generations had more belief in God, allowing them to trust in him and know that he had given them this for a reason (such as, this might be the return of Jesus!) So they could trust in God and then they wouldn't be getting terrified by a virus like a lot of people nowdays. Rebellion is allowed and I would say almost encouraged in the depraved society in which we live. Once the society as a whole walked away from the truths of the Bible it all went downhill from there.
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But you took two words way out of context.  Read the sentence again.  This isn't about obedience, it's about trust. 
OK.
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I think this is a lot worse with your proposal: Yes, I think a large percentage of Victorians would agree to harsher restrictions over a few weeks over lighter restrictions over 6+ weeks.  But to make that deal, the government has to essentially guarantee that the harsh restrictions will be successful.  And they can't.  If they succeed, great.  But if they fail, how many people will trust them to get it right next time?  Lighter restrictions over a longer period of time allows them to adjust restrictions and choose a re-open date in response to the data, rather than making a one-off gamble and hoping it works out.
That might be true. I guess people are probably less compliant now because of the time we did it and relaxed already. I'm not too happy with people's behaviour then either, but that isn't the issue now.
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I joked with a co-worker that I wouldn't get my hair cut this year.  This may well end up true.
Perhaps... do you really think it'll go on that long? Bringing it back to education - what about VCE education and so forth? Do you think it'll stay the way they're optimistically saying now?
Spoiler
I don't. I think we're in, at this point, for the long haul. My social skills are dying, but I don't mind...
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Bri MT on July 17, 2020, 04:30:17 pm
This thread is for discussion about COVID-19's impact on education and, as has been noted, it's been veering off-topic. There is already a thread on opinions about Victoria's lockdown here. This topic of conversation can invoke strong feelings and be contentious, any posts (whether here or in rants and debate) will be expected to adhere to the forum rules, especially our first one of respect.

Let's get replies here back to just being about the impact of covid-19 on education
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 17, 2020, 09:11:13 pm
This thread is for discussion about COVID-19's impact on education and, as has been noted, it's been veering off-topic. There is already a thread on opinions about Victoria's lockdown here. This topic of conversation can invoke strong feelings and be contentious, any posts (whether here or in rants and debate) will be expected to adhere to the forum rules, especially our first one of respect.

Let's get replies here back to just being about the impact of covid-19 on education

Sorry. Turin, you want to shift to the other thread?

Will COVID shut down schools again? Exams? I reckon so but what are others' opinions?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on July 27, 2020, 12:30:04 pm
Questions for those who are going to school currently.

What sort of interventions are in place at school to prevent the spread of the virus. I know schools have temperature checks in the morning but for asymptomatic individuals what other changes are in place. How often are classrooms getting cleaned? How close are students normally? What goes on during recess and lunch time? How often are students not following the rules? 
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 27, 2020, 01:39:01 pm
Questions for those who are going to school currently.

What sort of interventions are in place at school to prevent the spread of the virus. I know schools have temperature checks in the morning but for asymptomatic individuals what other changes are in place. How often are classrooms getting cleaned? How close are students normally? What goes on during recess and lunch time? How often are students not following the rules?
Firstly, itís very difficult to maintain perfect social distancing in a school environment. Iím not trying to defend anyoneís actions, but itís just the truth. I canít speak for others, but at my school we have a whole bunch of cleaners who just clean for the entire day while we are at school. They wipe down the lockers, doors and door handles, the microwave/sink stations and tables for the entire day, while weíre in classes and at recess/lunch. We also have billions of hand sanitiser bottles and installed automatic dispensers with hand sanitiser, and I can happily say everyone sanitises their hands very often (or most, at least). We also have made all the stairs one way to reduce congestion and made a lot of walking paths in the buildings one way. Everything Iíve just said wasnít specific to the second wave though, we were doing all this before too. We do socially distance during lunch and recess but itís probably ineffective as there are a handful of individuals who forget to social distance every time. We have teachers coming around to remind us, though. So yeah, social distancing measures are in place during recess and lunch, but they arenít really in place during class. During class we still sit next to one another, except the tables are all separated (still 2 on a table though, looks pretty old school haha). Thatís about all we have, but Iím not sure what else can be done. We canít have only 1 student at each table because we donít have enough tables for that and classrooms arenít big enough to have only 1 student at a table. Obviously we donít have any large gathering things, all assemblies and stuff are online and we have to attend from our classrooms.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Chocolatemilkshake on July 27, 2020, 03:25:53 pm
My school is pretty similar to whys with extra cleaners, sanitiser bottles everywhere and one way stair ways. I think for my school during the second wave theyíve been a lot more strict with social distancing. At lunch and recess students are doing a much better job at maintaining at least a 1 metre distance between them. Although I agree with whys that itís certainly not perfect (and some students are less compliant than others ).

Also with the second wave, as no 7-10s are coming to school, we have enough space for one student per table. This has definitely helped with social distancing in class. Our school has opened up all the classrooms that they can to help with this and we all have room changes.

To restrict movement and crowds of people around lockers when the bell goes the teacher chooses half the class to leave and then the rest follows a couple of minutes later. Iím not sure how effective this is but at least theyíre trying I suppose. They are minimising the amount of teachers coming to school as well.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on July 27, 2020, 04:13:12 pm
Questions for those who are going to school currently.

What sort of interventions are in place at school to prevent the spread of the virus. I know schools have temperature checks in the morning but for asymptomatic individuals what other changes are in place. How often are classrooms getting cleaned? How close are students normally? What goes on during recess and lunch time? How often are students not following the rules? 


The measures we have this time around are pretty similar to last time - but definetely being taken more seriously this time around. It is no where near perfect and I still see room for improvement, but its been okay.

We are no longer using lockers and carrying our bags around with us each day to stop the congestion. Temperature checks are being done - not sure how effective they are in the long run but better than nothing I guess. Social distancing in class depends on the teachers and size of the class - some teachers force us to sit apart, works better in my smaller classes. I think the schools being cleaned after every day and a bit in between breaks too.

We've been using some classrooms from younger grades to ensure we are more spread around the school as our senior building doesn't quite accomodate for everyone.

Seems like a lot of school closures have been occurring - I've had a few days off already this term. Its quite inconvenient but definetely in the best interest of everyone. We're already behind and its quite hard switching between online and face-to-face. Being in one of the worst affected areas imo I'd prefer to go back to online for a couple of weeks. Thats just my opinion as most of us are very scared to be at school.

Edit: Masks have been adopted quite well with everyone - however they come on and off constantly to eat, drink, take a breather etc so its a bit unhygenic in a way as they're being touched from everywhere - but I've been quite impressed to see them in use. No social distancing during recess and lunch at all though.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 27, 2020, 04:38:00 pm
Am I the only year 12 who's staying home during the second wave? With various respiratory issues and a (non-COVID) cough at the moment, I decided it was better to stay at home, and anticipated being not the only one in a couple of days, yet I'm the only one at my school, which is a bit disadvantaging. Is there anyone else??
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on July 27, 2020, 04:48:35 pm
I go to a rural school with only 4 cases in my shire which is like 3000 square km and one of the latest cases was a hospital employee...and i know SO MANY people who's parents work at the hospital. The local catholic school has enforced masks and tbch im surprised there isn't any sign of going into remote learning
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on July 27, 2020, 05:03:35 pm
Am I the only year 12 who's staying home during the second wave? With various respiratory issues and a (non-COVID) cough at the moment, I decided it was better to stay at home, and anticipated being not the only one in a couple of days, yet I'm the only one at my school, which is a bit disadvantaging. Is there anyone else??
I imagine you're not the only one staying at home - there would be quite a few year 12s who have medical conditions or other reasons that require them to stay at home. In the end, the most important thing is that you look after your own health.
I hope your school is giving you all the support you need!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 27, 2020, 05:13:32 pm
I hope your school is giving you all the support you need!
My school is actually very supportive, it's not nearly as easy though to learn from home and whatever. They're doing their best, but still. Remote learning. Isn't easy. Also, does not help with procrastination....
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on July 27, 2020, 07:58:33 pm
-snip-
-snip-
-snip-
Thanks for these responses. Seems like everyone is making a heap of changes which is great but it is always going to be very difficult to regulate in a school environment.

Using all the classrooms and changing timetables was also something that I was thinking of in order to decrease the number of times students have to be within the same classroom in the same day. Having no lockers for some is also a great idea because I know in a lot of schools those areas tend to be the most congested and it would be difficult not to bump into someone else.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 27, 2020, 08:12:47 pm
Thanks for these responses. Seems like everyone is making a heap of changes which is great but it is always going to be very difficult to regulate in a school environment.

Using all the classrooms and changing timetables was also something that I was thinking of in order to decrease the number of times students have to be within the same classroom in the same day. Having no lockers for some is also a great idea because I know in a lot of schools those areas tend to be the most congested and it would be difficult not to bump into someone else.
Assuming the school hasn't tightened any since I went online a couple of weeks back, my school was kinda being different - they were specifically doing it so that one class was in the same classroom all day as far as poss. Hand sanitiser we had, also told that if we wanted to we could not use our lockers (people ignored that completely) and got told that if we didn't socially distance in the year 12 common room, it'd be shut up for the time being (which people didn't want). There was a lot of cleaning too, and obv. hand sanitiser before each class (well, most of them anyway), and cleaning desks each day/time you have a new class, and we all had to keep to the same desks.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 27, 2020, 08:20:00 pm
Using all the classrooms and changing timetables was also something that I was thinking of in order to decrease the number of times students have to be within the same classroom in the same day. Having no lockers for some is also a great idea because I know in a lot of schools those areas tend to be the most congested and it would be difficult not to bump into someone else.
I'm quite forgetful. I forgot to say that we're doing this too haha. Our timetables have been changed so that many of our study periods are the end of the day, allowing year 12s, 11s and 10s to go home early to minimise the number of kids at school. The afternoons are half-empty as a result.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: insanipi on July 27, 2020, 08:31:41 pm
One of my local high schools has shut for the second time due to a case from a student (who hadn't been there in a long while apparently). Interesting to know that the school is shutting for 24h and MS Teams is their remote learning weapon of choice.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 27, 2020, 08:40:20 pm
MS Teams
? What is that?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on July 27, 2020, 08:42:45 pm
? What is that?
Microsoft Teams. AKA the best online learning platform in the entire world. You cannot argue with me. ;D
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 27, 2020, 08:44:05 pm
Having never tried it, 'tis true I cannot argue. My school uses Google Meet and Google Classroom. Which is not quite up to the standard I would like; not that they ask my opinion :P
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on July 27, 2020, 09:45:59 pm
What sort of interventions are in place at school to prevent the spread of the virus. I know schools have temperature checks in the morning but for asymptomatic individuals what other changes are in place. How often are classrooms getting cleaned? How close are students normally? What goes on during recess and lunch time? How often are students not following the rules?
Here is a typical "school routine"
1. Get dropped off or walk in one entrance only.
2. Get temperature checked with a fancy robot scanner, then take a sticker for your uniform and use hand sanitiser.
3. Go to lockers as usual. The locker bays that are also used as thoroughfares have been distanced however others haven't.
4. Classrooms have spray, paper towel and hand sanitiser as you walk in. Most people use hand sanitiser but tables are only cleaned in some of my classes (about half).
5. My school has lots of "exam" desks so we have had a few room changes to mean we are in a specific set of classrooms where there is either one person to a one-person desk or one person to a two-person desk.

Our school is extensively cleaned daily I believe, in addition to students cleaning the tables and frequently touched surfaces.

Social distancing is enforced at times, depending on the teacher. Not too prevalent in the smallish hallways which are not one way (a great idea that I hadn't thought about). Some teachers are very strict about it while others don't mind if you move the tables to sit right next to a friend.

Recess and lunch is as per normal I think, and most people make some effort to at least try and socially distance somehow. People do get told off for little things but it is more of a reminder as it is a big adjustment and you sometimes just forget.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on July 30, 2020, 05:20:23 pm
Another massive jump in cases in Victoria today. 80+ schools have had to close down since this term started too.

How's everyone feeling about going to school amongst all this? Do you think we'll be closed down again?

Take care!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on July 30, 2020, 06:00:24 pm
I'm very happy that masks are being enforced in regional Vic! I've been waiting for them to do this, finally!!!!! Now it wont be weird to wear a mask at school!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: iam_real_don on July 30, 2020, 06:00:56 pm
That is very big number of schools closing down in Victoria, hope y'all are safe and keep studying hard at home on Microsoft Teams, the greatest school based learning at home system.



Microsoft Teams, the greatest school based learning at home system.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on July 30, 2020, 06:09:45 pm
That is very big number of schools closing down in Victoria, hope y'all are safe and keep studying hard at home on Microsoft Teams, the greatest school based learning at home system.



Microsoft Teams, the greatest school based learning at home system.
Is this an ad or something? If not, it sure looks like it.
I hope we'll be closed down; I am currently staying at home because of the no.'s of cases, so it would be easier if everyone else did. But perchance that's selfish.
Also I feel like keeping schools open sends the wrong message to all the young adults who are going around getting it.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on July 31, 2020, 10:22:04 pm
Someone at the school my parents work at has tested positive. Time to wait for tracing to be done, fingers crossed my folks didnt get it and pass it to one of us kids and we took it to our school  :-\ but that's worst case scenario but you never know!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on August 02, 2020, 02:48:32 pm
All schools across Victoria to be closed except to essential worker children among other restrictions. Everyone else on remote learning, including year 11 and 12.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on August 02, 2020, 02:52:09 pm
Just wanted to come and say that AN is here for you all and we'll do our best to support you and help you with your education during these tough times! <3
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on August 02, 2020, 02:55:54 pm
And we're backkkkkk. Mixed feelings about this - but I definetely think it was the best way to go.
I really don't wan to do online SACs again though - would hate for them all to be pushed back.
Feeling a bit anxious at the moment too :(
What a Year 12.

Just wanted to come and say that AN is here for you all and we'll do our best to support you and help you with your education during these tough times! <3

So appreciative for everyone here <3
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: 1729 on August 02, 2020, 03:01:26 pm
Victoria Update
- We have 6,322 active cases, 385 Victorians are in hospital, 38 of those are receiving intensive care. In terms of health workers, there
  are some 649 active cases.
- 671 new COVID-19 cases, 7 deaths for Victoria

Curfew for Melbourne from 8pm - 5am starts tonight.
- This state of disaster is from 6:00pm tonight
- Stage 4 restrictions announced
- Only allowed to leave home within a 5km radius.
- Recreational activity is no longer allowed, 1 hour of exercise only.
- Only allowed to be groups of 2 regardless if it is your family.
- Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what
   you need within a 5km radius.
- All students returning to homeschooling after the originally scheduled August 19th return to normal school.
- Special schools will remain open for those who really need to be in those settings. And the children, the students of parents who
  are working, they will be able to go to school and be supervised but it will really only be those that are absolutely necessary to do
  so.
- What that means for metropolitan Melbourne the Year 11 and 12s will go back to working from home.

Regional Melbourne is being moved into Stage 3 restrictions from midnight on Wednesday:
- Regional Victoria, from midnight next Wednesday, regional Victoria will move to stage three restrictions. Thatís stay at home, except for the four reasons to leaving. That will mean restaurants, cafes, bars, gyms, a whole range of other settings will need to close from midnight next Wednesday
-" In regional Victoria, they will move to remote and flexible learning for all students but there will be I think larger numbers of student that are allowed to be at school because their parents are working."
- Tomorrow, the premier will have more to say about different industries and there will be three categories of industries.
Other things to be clarified:
-Intimate partner visits will be allowed outside of the 5km radius of your home.
 
Weddings will be banned from Thursday.
 
Funerals are allowed but 10 mourners only can leave Melbourne to attend one in regional Victoria.
 
There will be restricted overnight train services.
 

- These restrictions are proposed to last for 6 weeks. From 6:00pm tonight, others from midnight Wednesday. They will run out until September 13.

- Tomorrowís a normal day of school. Tuesday will be a pupil free day across the board. And we will then move to flexible and
  remote learning for all students come Wednesday.

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Duck Tails on August 02, 2020, 03:15:44 pm
Absolutely gutted, but if it's what we need to do to save people's lives, then so be it.

I personally didn't fare too well last time with remote learning, mainly due to all the distractions and lack of structure at home. I think I'm pretty lucky both my parents are essential workers so I'll probably go to school this time around (of course sticking within social distancing rules and wearing a mask). I'd hate to be in year 12 right now - you guys are troopers.

Real excited to hear what all the nuffies think about this; take a shot every time you hear the phrase "Commie/Dictator Dan".
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Failingvce on August 02, 2020, 03:28:06 pm
I'm so scared to do SACS online. and them pushing the GAT is just making everything worse because we have potential SACS and exam prep on top of all this in term 4 :(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on August 02, 2020, 03:29:37 pm
-snip-
Post this on the other COVID-19 thread

trying to keep this on education

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on August 02, 2020, 03:35:00 pm
Any thoughts on this?
I feel stressed. Feel like saying goodbye to my ATAR lol. I absolutely hate remote learning because I don't learn at all, but I hope that as a result of these restrictions community transmission/spread of the virus can be minimised as much as possible. I mean, at least we don't need to wear masks for 5-6 hours a day anymore since we'll be stuck at home? Haha. It really wasn't a matter of if we would have stage 4 restrictions, it was a matter of when, and at least they're doing it now rather than later. I'm not really fussed about the curfew/exercise/travel restrictions because me/my family were already subconsciously following those, but I wonder what it'll be like if you live in a suburb where some essentials are over 5km away (if they exist?).

I can only imagine what small businesses and the like would be going through - my thoughts go out to them. I feel horrible 'complaining' about the situation since many have it way, way worse than me, but the fact is that remote learning sucks for me and I have no idea how I'm going to keep on top of everything. I'm just expressing my personal concerns, they're very minor in the grand scheme of things because being in year 12 isn't of significance compared to what everyone else in the state/country/world is going through. Pretty much my only concern is from my standpoint as a year 12 as I worry about the future/getting into uni/how the hell will I ever be able to get a decent ATAR anymore. Especially the whole thing with online SACs - doing validation tasks back at school for them is stressful too and it's almost impossible to monitor things like cheating. Also worried they will push SACs back, making them closer to exam time.

Overall I'm glad they imposed the restrictions. Can't help feeling stressed though.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: insanipi on August 02, 2020, 03:41:40 pm
Waiting for confirmation that I'm needing to shut everything 100% down at uni again (I'm hoping I have some leeway with the vaccine researchers in my group being able to keep things alive rn). It will be an anxious 24-48h before MIPS will provide info as to their next steps. I just hope they give me the extension I'd need because there's no way I can finish before November now- I legitimately have nothing to do but finish writing the thesis intro during these 6 weeks because of ordering/supply issues delaying any proper results being recorded D:

At least we can save lives though- that's important :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Failingvce on August 02, 2020, 03:48:06 pm
I feel stressed. Feel like saying goodbye to my ATAR lol. I absolutely hate remote learning because I don't learn at all, but I hope that as a result of these restrictions community transmission/spread of the virus can be minimised as much as possible. I mean, at least we don't need to wear masks for 5-6 hours a day anymore since we'll be stuck at home? Haha. It really wasn't a matter of if we would have stage 4 restrictions, it was a matter of when, and at least they're doing it now rather than later. I'm not really fussed about the curfew/exercise/travel restrictions because me/my family were already subconsciously following those, but I wonder what it'll be like if you live in a suburb where some essentials are over 5km away (if they exist?).

I can only imagine what small businesses and the like would be going through - my thoughts go out to them. I feel horrible 'complaining' about the situation since many have it way, way worse than me, but the fact is that remote learning sucks for me and I have no idea how I'm going to keep on top of everything. I'm just expressing my personal concerns, they're very minor in the grand scheme of things because being in year 12 isn't of significance compared to what everyone else in the state/country/world is going through. Pretty much my only concern is from my standpoint as a year 12 as I worry about the future/getting into uni/how the hell will I ever be able to get a decent ATAR anymore. Especially the whole thing with online SACs - doing validation tasks back at school for them is stressful too and it's almost impossible to monitor things like cheating. Also worried they will push SACs back, making them closer to exam time.

Overall I'm glad they imposed the restrictions. Can't help feeling stressed though.

I agree! that is my biggest concern because my experience with online SACS last time was NOT GOOD at all. And I totally relate to not being able to learn efficiently during remote learning because it's just so difficult to separate the home environment from a learning one.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on August 02, 2020, 03:48:43 pm

The GAT has also been moved to early term 4, with no confirmed dates. The exam dates haven't moved.

I'm feeling quite anxious if i'm honest. Some of my marks have slipped due to being in full lockdown before, so going back to even tougher restrictions is very scary. Like others this really was needed, and I do hope this brings down the numbers. One of the biggest things i'm scared about is my ATAR, I have no idea if i'm going to be able to achieve what I wanted, so I guess it's just a waiting game.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 02, 2020, 04:21:44 pm

The GAT has also been moved to early term 4, with no confirmed dates. The exam dates haven't moved.

What? The GAT's no longer on the 9th of September?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: 1729 on August 02, 2020, 04:24:04 pm
What? The GAT's no longer on the 9th of September?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-02/coronavirus-australia-live-news-covid19-latest-victoria/12515596
Here you go.
Quote from: Alicia Nally (ABC)
The GAT, or General Achievement Test for year 12 students, will be moved from the end of term three to the start of term four.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 02, 2020, 04:28:44 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-02/coronavirus-australia-live-news-covid19-latest-victoria/12515596
Here you go.

Thanks! Here's the transcript for the convenience of others:

The GAT, or General Achievement Test for year 12 students, will be moved from the end of term three to the start of term four.
 
VCE exam dates will not change. Exams will finish by December 2.
 
Year 12 students will receive their ATARs by the end of the year.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on August 02, 2020, 06:01:01 pm
Honestly dislike online learning but despite that I'm keen for these restrictions! The daily number of cases is alarming, gone are the good old days of 17 new cases headlines. I think I'll be alright in online learning, I just need to keep on top of exercising and eating properly so that I dont end up living off noodles and doing 2,000 steps a day cause im at my desk from 7am - 9pm
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Massimo1 on August 02, 2020, 06:18:52 pm
I think this was definitely a necessary step to take, and I actually liked remote learning considering it saves me around 90 minutes of travel time each day and the need to wake up to a cold morning. My school implemented remote learning relatively decently, and I've always been the type of person to get things done independently rather than needing to rely on others.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on August 02, 2020, 06:49:35 pm
I feel stressed. Feel like saying goodbye to my ATAR lol. I absolutely hate remote learning because I don't learn at all, but I hope that as a result of these restrictions community transmission/spread of the virus can be minimised as much as possible. I mean, at least we don't need to wear masks for 5-6 hours a day anymore since we'll be stuck at home? Haha. It really wasn't a matter of if we would have stage 4 restrictions, it was a matter of when, and at least they're doing it now rather than later. I'm not really fussed about the curfew/exercise/travel restrictions because me/my family were already subconsciously following those, but I wonder what it'll be like if you live in a suburb where some essentials are over 5km away (if they exist?).

I can only imagine what small businesses and the like would be going through - my thoughts go out to them. I feel horrible 'complaining' about the situation since many have it way, way worse than me, but the fact is that remote learning sucks for me and I have no idea how I'm going to keep on top of everything. I'm just expressing my personal concerns, they're very minor in the grand scheme of things because being in year 12 isn't of significance compared to what everyone else in the state/country/world is going through. Pretty much my only concern is from my standpoint as a year 12 as I worry about the future/getting into uni/how the hell will I ever be able to get a decent ATAR anymore. Especially the whole thing with online SACs - doing validation tasks back at school for them is stressful too and it's almost impossible to monitor things like cheating. Also worried they will push SACs back, making them closer to exam time.

Overall I'm glad they imposed the restrictions. Can't help feeling stressed though.
You're definitely allowed to be stressed, upset and disappointed about this - we all have emotions and we are all affected by this!

Re: ATAR, wouldn't be too stressed about it going down the drain as this situation is affecting everyone, so everyone else is also having their learning disrupted. Obviously some people will be affected worse than others, but take comfort in knowing you're not alone :)

Just to re-iterate - we're all here for you! Don't be afraid to reach out. The only way we can get through things like these is if we work together and support each other.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 02, 2020, 08:53:27 pm
I think this was definitely a necessary step to take, and I actually liked remote learning considering it saves me around 90 minutes of travel time each day and the need to wake up to a cold morning. My school implemented remote learning relatively decently, and I've always been the type of person to get things done independently rather than needing to rely on others.
Same! I mean for me it was around two, two and a half hours all told between morning and afternoon.

2020 year 12 our ATARs will be all in the same boat. K888, I reiterate what you are saying also. Personally, having been the only student staying at home for my school's year 12 class for the last couple of weeks, I'm pretty happy with everyone going home (not for selfish if-I-have-to-I-want-you-to-too, but because it's easier for both teachers and classes if everything is either online or at school).
Some of my class is going yay we get to stay home, while others are going there goes me working hard. Unfortunately, my best skill learnt in quarantine seems to have been simply learning how to work on other (and sometimes non-school-related) things while the teacher's talking whooshes straight past me (which also means I might be procrastinating without doing anything useful). :-/ Non-ideal.
Hopefully better this time around...
If anyone needs fellow-year-12 commiseration, I can commiserate...
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 02, 2020, 09:50:12 pm
While I think this is definitely necessary, I am still very sad about it :(. I am extremely lucky to say that my school had a great online learning model so I am pretty sure my education will not be affected. I am a little worried about the GAT not having a set date but it is good that exams are still in place.

My concern is mental health and my social wellbeing. I am definitely an extrovert and I will miss being able to see lots of people every day. Yes, we can FaceTime and text but it is not the same. I am glad that we are still able to exercise with one other person regardless if they live with you or not as this means that I can have a socially distanced little catch up with a friend who lives close to me.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on August 02, 2020, 09:56:29 pm
I am a little worried about the GAT not having a set date but it is good that exams are still in place.
My school told me that the GAT is 10th of October, hopefully this is accurate and can ease your worries :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on August 02, 2020, 10:10:50 pm
Obviously all the changes are necessary and I support them. There really wasn't any other option but to tighten restrictions.

Unfortunately, I feel this may also further widen the gap between those in low and high SES in terms of VCE. Hopefully, we see some announcements with regards to resources to help students with online learning.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: turinturambar on August 02, 2020, 11:01:07 pm
I can only imagine what small businesses and the like would be going through - my thoughts go out to them. I feel horrible 'complaining' about the situation since many have it way, way worse than me, but the fact is that remote learning sucks for me and I have no idea how I'm going to keep on top of everything. I'm just expressing my personal concerns, they're very minor in the grand scheme of things because being in year 12 isn't of significance compared to what everyone else in the state/country/world is going through.

It is always OK worrying about how things will affect you personally.  It's good to have the perspective to see that others have it worse, but that doesn't mean that your concerns don't matter.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 03, 2020, 02:51:11 am
Obviously all the changes are necessary and I support them. There really wasn't any other option but to tighten restrictions.

Unfortunately, I feel this may also further widen the gap between those in low and high SES in terms of VCE. Hopefully, we see some announcements with regards to resources to help students with online learning.

Important to note - I was recently shown some data that suggested COVID had /already/ done this with the little it's already been out and about (I don't remember the specifics and so can't prove this AT ALL, so feel free to disregard this entirely while I try and find that study again...), so it's likely that this will exacerbate the issue.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 03, 2020, 12:17:07 pm
Last Day Update: I was expecting today (Monday) to be our last day on campus however my private school is still running on campus learning tomorrow as we are already prepared for online learning. I was prepared for today to be our last day however I am happy that I can see my friends for another day :)

I wonder if any other independant/catholic schools are doing this?

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 03, 2020, 12:42:49 pm
Last Day Update: I was expecting today (Monday) to be our last day on campus however my private school is still running on campus learning tomorrow as we are already prepared for online learning. I was prepared for today to be our last day however I am happy that I can see my friends for another day :)

I wonder if any other independant/catholic schools are doing this?
One class of mine is having class tomorrow, tho' I don't think the rest are.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on August 03, 2020, 04:45:34 pm
According to this timetable by VCAA
https://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/administration/Key-dates/Pages/2020RevisedAdminDates.aspx

The GAT will be held on the Wednesday the 7th of October .
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 03, 2020, 05:32:43 pm
Nothing else changed (at this point at least) for VCE dates and so forth?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: J_Rho on August 03, 2020, 05:36:42 pm
Nothing else changed (at this point at least) for VCE dates and so forth?
Nup, exams are the same dates. GAT is, as Arty said, on the 7th of October :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 07, 2020, 12:24:00 pm
James Merlino just announced that each student will be individually assessed in regards to the effects of COVID-19. Additionally, an extra $28,500,000 has been allocated to Mental Health resources in schools.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 07, 2020, 12:26:55 pm
James Merlino just announced that each student will be individually assessed in regards to the effects of COVID-19. Additionally, an extra $28,500,000 has been allocated to Mental Health resources in schools.

Just like the old Victorian HSC system, students being assessed individually. Well, they did scale people's marks up if the bell curve was very low. Very noice
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on August 07, 2020, 12:27:41 pm
Here is the exact announcement to add on to elise:
Quote
"I'm constantly asked about this and constantly being raised concerns from our students and from our schools. This year is like no other, it is an unprecedented year and we need to support our students in an unprecedented way.
 
"This year we're going to do things very, very differently. What we're announcing today is that every single VCE student will be individually assessed and any adverse impacts from COVID-19 will be reflected in their ATAR ranking.
 
"This is quite an extraordinary change. So every single student will be individually assessed. We'll look at things such as school closures, we'll look at things such as long absences. We'll look at things, for example, such as significant increase in family responsibilities as a result of COVID-19 and we'll of course consider the mental health and wellbeing of students during this period.
 
"So all of those factors will be considered. So now, students will go into their VCE exams with the confidence knowing that they will not be disadvantaged as a result of COVID-19.
 
"They'll go into their exams knowing that their final scores and their ATAR ranking will be a fair reflection of their year, and they will not be disadvantaged as a result of COVID-19.
 
"This is a way that we can give every student and every parent of a VCE student the comfort and the confidence that their student will receive their final scores that take into account their individual circumstances. It puts them on a level playing field with every student across the state."

My question is, "what does this mean?"
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 07, 2020, 12:31:37 pm
My question is, "what does this mean?"
I'm not too sure, quite broad. I took it in the way that there is more special consideration, depending on school closures, absences, family pressures and other similar things.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Geoo on August 07, 2020, 12:42:12 pm
So this is how that will work:

Quote
"It'll be individually assessed. Every student is different. We'll work it out at a variety of ways.
 
"For example, at a school level, for each student, schools will be asked to rank where they expect that student to be right now.
 
"But they'll also be asked to rank their students if it were not for COVID-19. So both a ranking of where they are at now and where they would have been had it not been for COVID-19 and why.
 
"Then we'll get all that data from across the state. So we'll have a standardised adjustment. So whether it's a long-term closure, we'll have a standardised way to assess the scores and that will be reflected in the ATAR.
 
"We'll look at the impact prior to COVID. We'll look at the general achievement test for term 4 and most importantly their VCE exams. But at  school level and an individual student level we're looking at and asking teachers where do you rank your students right now and where would they have been had it not been for COVID-19, and why.
 
"That's why the message to every single student is that, 'You will be individually assessed. You will be at no disadvantage when you step into the VCE exams at the end of the year.'"
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 07, 2020, 12:46:02 pm
So this is how that will work:

Schools definitely have a clear picture of what people could've done if not for what's occurred. Here we come character references..  :-\
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 07, 2020, 12:51:00 pm
So then what happens for the people who already needed special consideration? Who therefore talked to teachers last year saying, This is what I'm gonna be like next year? Who therefore the teachers already expect not to do as well? The ones where the teacher handed back a decent grade saying that they were very pleasurably surprised by the mark? Teachers who maybe still think of these kids as coasters this year from circumstances outside their control?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: s110820 on August 07, 2020, 03:02:48 pm
Hey everyone!

I'm not a VCE student but I would like to let you know that the Victorian government have just posted an update about the COVID-19 situation in terms of education. If you would like to read it, I have linked it below: https://www.9news.com.au/national/victoria-year-12-vce-special-consideration-atar-coronavirus-lockdown/f6a7235a-cf8a-4709-8583-6cee216ce19b

I'm not exactly sure how they are going to calculate the VCE ATARs just based on individual assessment but I'm sure that this may help ease some anxiety around graduating this year.

Hopefully, this helps :)

Have a great weekend and kind regards,

Darcy Dillon.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on August 07, 2020, 05:43:00 pm
It seems like they are selling it as a win-win for everyone when in reality given the way VCE is set up it really can't be.

They say students will be "individually assessed" quite a bit which I think can be a bit misleading if someone is just reading headlines. I think it is good that they are looking at each student's individual circumstances and how the pandemic has impacted everyone but in the end, everyone still gets an ATAR which compares each student against the rest of the state.

The biggest problem with the changes imo are the following:
Quote
Teachers will be asked where they rank their students now and where they would have ranked them if it was not for COVID-19.
This is never going to be done well for everyone. Obviously those with a strong relationship with their teachers will benefit quite a bit.

From this, those students who adapted well and possibly outperformed what their teacher's expectations were at the start of the year may be disadvantaged, same goes for those students who maybe didn't do too well in year 11 but focused in for year 12 thus exceeding expectations.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: TigerMum on August 07, 2020, 06:04:49 pm
It seems like they are selling it as a win-win for everyone when in reality given the way VCE is set up it really can't be.

They say students will be "individually assessed" quite a bit which I think can be a bit misleading if someone is just reading headlines. I think it is good that they are looking at each student's individual circumstances and how the pandemic has impacted everyone but in the end, everyone still gets an ATAR which compares each student against the rest of the state.

The biggest problem with the changes imo are the following:This is never going to be done well for everyone. Obviously those with a strong relationship with their teachers will benefit quite a bit.

From this, those students who adapted well and possibly outperformed what their teacher's expectations were at the start of the year may be disadvantaged, same goes for those students who maybe didn't do too well in year 11 but focused in for year 12 thus exceeding expectations.
I 100% agree. I personally think it's ridiculous to suggest that teachers can move people's ranks around based on their perceived impact of COVID-19 on individual students. It's ironic that every time they introduce something that is supposed to "alleviate the stress" of students or to "ensure that no one will be disadvantaged", it immediately makes me feel more stressed because we are now leaving things up to subjective judgement by teachers rather than consistency across the state.    That said, I think one of the reasons why they can present it as a win-win is that, barring a massive turning point in the global vaccine hunt, the COVID-19 situation is going to completely block international students from coming to Australian universities next year, leaving heaps of places for domestic students, as long as they meet minimum entry requirements.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: heids on August 07, 2020, 07:19:34 pm
My immediate thoughts when I heard it agree with the above.  It feels like it's being presented as a generous salvation from on high, when really it changes little and possibly causes more problems.

An ATAR is not an objective exam score - it's a percentile, a comparison or ranking of people within the same system.  The same number of people will get 99.95s and 88.30s and 64.25s under Covid-19 conditions as would have in normal years.  Maybe the average score on the same exam is 60% this year rather than 70% in normal years - but people's ATARs remain the same.  ATARs are also state-based not national, so we're not disadvantaging Victorians compared with Queenslanders, for example.

I understand that some people are far more significantly affected by this than others, but that's always the case.  All you're doing is shuffling round the factors that affect comparative rankings - now it's based more on subjective teacher relationships and expectations than actual performance.  Way to put an unjustifiable burden on already-stretched teachers!

Perhaps the same schools that are more disadvantaged due to poorer online teaching and systems will also have teachers less able to write convincing justifications.

That said, I think one of the reasons why they can present it as a win-win is that, barring a massive turning point in the global vaccine hunt, the COVID-19 situation is going to completely block international students from coming to Australian universities next year, leaving heaps of places for domestic students, as long as they meet minimum entry requirements.

I know *nothing* about this, but I imagine the number of places in each course are based partly on projected employment needs in different industries.  International students may be given extra places because they're more likely to seek employment in other countries and not overburden our workforce (and make things cheaper for the govt as they pay full fee!)  But no idea.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: miyukiaura on August 07, 2020, 07:39:48 pm
Would this affect non-year 12 students studying a 3/4 subject this year?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 07, 2020, 07:56:32 pm
Would this affect non-year 12 students studying a 3/4 subject this year?
I'm in the exact same boat. I am under the impression that it will, as for each subject you are ranked against your cohort, while the ATAR is a rank of aggregates.

Can someone please confirm or deny this? I am very confused tbh  ???
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 07, 2020, 09:36:44 pm
From this, those students who adapted well and possibly outperformed what their teacher's expectations were at the start of the year may be disadvantaged, same goes for those students who maybe didn't do too well in year 11 but focused in for year 12 thus exceeding expectations.
I was thinking that! I've outperformed it seems, so disadvantages :'(
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: homeworkisapotato on August 07, 2020, 09:57:34 pm
I'm a little confused.. how are students who have outperformed and exceeded expectations possibly disadvantaged?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Owlbird83 on August 07, 2020, 10:07:54 pm
I'm a little confused.. how are students who have outperformed and exceeded expectations possibly disadvantaged?

I'm not sure how right I am, but because everyone is getting special consideration, and atars are a ranking, it wouldn't really mean anything unless they boost the scores of the people who haven't been doing well in isolation, which would be the same as bringing down the scores of people doing well, since it's a ranking?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: homeworkisapotato on August 07, 2020, 10:17:02 pm
Oh, that makes sense! They said that the considerations are individualised, and they'll also ask teachers. Idk about ALL but most teachers should be able to look at their students' unit 3 sacs and get an idea of how they would have performed throughout the year if corona didn't happen, right? Maybe VCAA will use the special considerations combined with what the teachers say to give some people varying levels of considerations. So maybe, if a student didn't do well in isolation and their teacher thinks they didn't really try/ do well in unit 3 the student won't get consideration? Contrastingly, if a student did really well but suffered from depression or had to manage their family in iso, one would think they also would get special consideration?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 08, 2020, 07:17:32 am
So then what happens for the people who already needed special consideration? Who therefore talked to teachers last year saying, This is what I'm gonna be like next year? Who therefore the teachers already expect not to do as well? The ones where the teacher handed back a decent grade saying that they were very pleasurably surprised by the mark? Teachers who maybe still think of these kids as coasters this year from circumstances outside their control?

This train of thought really is a deep-dive down the rabbit hole of a thought process - any way you can voice your concern a little more clearly? Because as is I have no idea what you're worried about, sorry

I 100% agree. I personally think it's ridiculous to suggest that teachers can move people's ranks around based on their perceived impact of COVID-19 on individual students. It's ironic that every time they introduce something that is supposed to "alleviate the stress" of students or to "ensure that no one will be disadvantaged", it immediately makes me feel more stressed because we are now leaving things up to subjective judgement by teachers rather than consistency across the state. That said, I think one of the reasons why they can present it as a win-win is that, barring a massive turning point in the global vaccine hunt, the COVID-19 situation is going to completely block international students from coming to Australian universities next year, leaving heaps of places for domestic students, as long as they meet minimum entry requirements.

You say that like our state education system already has consistency and we've just removed it ::). There is a much bigger problem with the blocking of international students, though - and that's how the universities are going to stay afloat. Right now, they RELY on international students coming in and paying their ridiculous fees to remain profitable - without ANY international students, there's going to be a large strain on the system. Particularly with the stupid new degree costs being introduced by the Morrison government - they're literally asking universities to take more students while being paid less in their most expensive degrees to run. And like, before someone jumps on the whole "you're just a STEM elitist" - it's just a fact that it's cheaper to run tutorials and lectures that at most just require a shared computer lab than it is just to maintain the equipment required for STEM teaching (with one notable exception in mathematics, which tbh costs less than some HESS subjects and is probably on par with their average). Universities will be struggling in the years to come.

TBF, these are concerns you - as potential tertiary students - won't have to worry about short-term, and you'll probably be safe in being able to get the degree you want with just the normal level of concerns anyone doing year 12 has had to deal with. I am interested to see how the clearly-in ATARs are affected by the "carrot and stick" approach the Morrison government is taking with degree costs.

Perhaps the same schools that are more disadvantaged due to poorer online teaching and systems will also have teachers less able to write convincing justifications.

We can only hope that low SES schools, and definitely areas where the NBN hasn't been rolled out (not that the NBN is even good internet lol), will be considered given that those areas are just flat out going to be less prepared for internet-based learning than metropolitan Melbourne. However, I'm unsure about those teachers being able to be less convincing - it doesn't take technical ability to be a convincing person (see Trump), and definitely if any of them can make it clear their own miserable understanding of online systems, that tbh would probably make the Government see the teachers as some who probably adapted poorly, and so try to raise those students scores accordingly.

I know *nothing* about this, but I imagine the number of places in each course are based partly on projected employment needs in different industries.  International students may be given extra places because they're more likely to seek employment in other countries and not overburden our workforce (and make things cheaper for the govt as they pay full fee!)  But no idea.

So like, my understanding (as someone who as worked with people in admissions) is that the amount of places being offered is literally limited by how many students the university can accept. Sounds like backwards logic, but the point is that they literally take EVERYONE they can - the university doesn't consider things like projected employment in areas, they consider how many students they can physically fit into classes without losing money. And tbf, that's not necesarrily a BAD approach when you consider things like less and less people are getting jobs directly related to their undergraduate degrees (something like only 40% of science graduates at Monash have a job in STEM, with a disproportionate amount of astrophysics majors being hired as accountants). The university has no idea what you'll do with the degree they give you, so why restrict numbers when that has no bearing on what job you may actually end up taking?

You may think that more specialised degrees have a higher retention rate - and AFAIK that's correct, but the different isn't as big as you'd think. Here's some census data I found from the US, and interestingly it looks like something as little as 33% of students with engineering majors ended up being engineers (note that the US follows a unimelb-like approach - students don't study a Bachelor of Engineering, they'll instead study a Bachelor of Science and major in engineering. While it differs by university, typically in the US you study arts or science, and those are your choices, the major you take being essentially what your degree is in, so that's what you've gotta be looking at). Yes, the fact that this is US data does mean it's not directly comparable to our situation in Australia, but it can still be informative - but I'd love to see a similar graph for Australia if anyone can find it





On another note, everyone is discussing these changes as if what they're going to do is just scale each student, similar as to is already done with study scores. Has there actually been official word that THIS is how they'll handle the situation, or is that just assumption by everyone? It could simply be that all they'll do is grant special consideration for students as required, and most likely the biggest thing that'll happen is a group of students will get extra exam time for example, or some will have individual SAC marks changed (eg, we know Johnny's computer crashed during SAC 2 for further maths, so we're going to instead give him an average score for that SAC), etc., which IMHO wouldn't be that bad a way of handling it, and would definitely account for issues with remote-based learning without discounting students who have managed to do well despite these odds.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lilyyyy on August 09, 2020, 01:55:21 pm
I feel like it's just a 'bandage' for the recent petition to cancel exams altogether. Considering that ATAR is just a ranking anyways, if everyone is 'special' then wouldn't that mean no one is special. I'm particularly doubtful about teachers ranking their students based on what they think they would be ---> which is really subjective. I was hoping that they could consider other more objective things like how people performed in year 11.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lilyyyy on August 09, 2020, 02:01:24 pm
I was honestly impacted by covid even before the start of term 1, there were already a very small number of cases in Australia at the time. I was extremely paranoid before the start of term 1 because all of my friends had just flown back from China, and my school had scheduled year 12 camp in the first week of school (remind you that there were no quarantine of any sorts for international travellers at the time). As a result I didn't attend school for the first two weeks, which adversely affected my study even before we went into remote.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I just don't think it makes sense for your year 12 teachers to predict where you would be, as they have barely seen your real potentials without the influence of covid. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to consider year 11 results or opinions from your year 11 teachers?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on August 09, 2020, 02:04:54 pm
Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score. Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 09, 2020, 02:12:15 pm
Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score. Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.
I completely agree! I think that exams need to go ahead in order for this year to be as fair as possible. Without exams, there is NO consistency. As well with the special consideration, I feel that it is quite tough to measure the affects but it is nice knowing that they were trying to level out the playing field. I don't love the idea of teacher rankings either as it could be a bit subjective however it could make be a backup for odd SAC results?

Also with year 11 results being used, I think this is a terrible idea because some people use year 11 as there trial year for subjects, study techniques, etc. I for one did not do general maths 1/2 but am doing further maths 3/4, and my 1/2 subjects are a little bit over the place to be used for my 3/4 results.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 09, 2020, 03:28:14 pm
Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Lear on August 09, 2020, 05:26:23 pm
Also with year 11 results being used, I think this is a terrible idea because some people use year 11 as there trial year for subjects, study techniques, etc. I for one did not do general maths 1/2 but am doing further maths 3/4, and my 1/2 subjects are a little bit over the place to be used for my 3/4 results.

Strongly agree. I personally did not work hard at all in year 11 and did quite poorly. If my teachers were to use my year 11 efforts and results as a benchmark, I would be in a lot of trouble.

On a broader scale, the students at my school who received academic awards for their subjects or overall achievement in year 11 didn't even necessarily do well in year 12. In my school, at least, year 11 was mistreated by most people. I think there are a significant amount of individuals who only turn on and start working hard in year 12. This was definitely the case for me and my peers in that the make up of high scorers often were very average students just the year before.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 10, 2020, 03:21:37 am
Considering that ATAR is just a ranking anyways, if everyone is 'special' then wouldn't that mean no one is special.

Hard disagree if only because I hate this line in general. The typical reasoning is that if everyone is special, then the idea of what makes something "special" becomes shifted - which is untrue. If I have a trait that is special, it could be entirely different to the trait of someone else that is special, and so "special" as it once was remains. This paradox, unlike other more worthy ones, only forms because we decide it should be a paradox - NOT because it inherently makes no sense, like the Liar paradox.

Indeed, in this case, it's not about everyone being special - it's about the fact that different people have been affected in different ways, and the way to treat this impact will inherently be different for every person. Having not seen the petition in question (although I doubt it will go far - lol you ever seen a petition ever affect the Government), I can't really comment any more, but there's my thoughts on the matter.

I'm particularly doubtful about teachers ranking their students based on what they think they would be ---> which is really subjective. I was hoping that they could consider other more objective things like how people performed in year 11.

Year 11 is inherently subjective, though. The topics covered can be entirely different to the topics covered in year 12 (let's compare my year 11 chemistry scores to year 12 shall we - I'd love to have my constantly 100% tests compared to a sea ranging from 50%-96%), the schools set the difficulty of the material, and people just often feel less motivated to try hard unless they're interested in scholarships, doing university enhancement, or have an inherent sense of competition, as others have pointed out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I just don't think it makes sense for your year 12 teachers to predict where you would be, as they have barely seen your real potentials without the influence of covid. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to consider year 11 results or opinions from your year 11 teachers?

I mean, your year 12 teachers work with your year 11 teachers. You honestly think they're going to sit in a vacuum and not talk to each other? Not to mention that they'll still have access to your year 11 results. Plus, there's no guarantee that at every school, whoever taught you year 11 still teaches there. I wouldn't be surprised if as many as a teacher EVERY SECOND SCHOOL who taught a year 11 subject is no longer at the school, considering how often rotations occur.

Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score.

Interesting argument since research suggests that standardised tests are a poor method for testing a person's ability

Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.

I mean, it's entirely true that the disparity will still exist, no matter what we do. But we don't know that this won't help - again, we don't actually know HOW they're going to address the inequity (unless someone can provide me with a source), just that your teachers will be the judge of it.

There's a lot of fears, there's a lot of "it'll suck if x happens" being thrown around, but if we don't actually KNOW what the government is going to do (and I repeat - if you've got a source that I've missed, please educate me. Knowledge is power, and tbh I really want to deconstruct the Government's opinion in a way that'll make you all feel at ease if I can. The running around in circles being worried almost feels as stressful to watch as it likely is to experience), you're probably better off not thinking about it, and instead trying to focus on getting through stage 4.

Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.

Spoken like a true anarchist? Tbh I'm entirely confused by what your point is.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 10, 2020, 09:58:23 am
Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.
I don't like the idea but I kind of agree. Myself, I can't even remember a lot of my year 11 results... so I don't know, if they use that, if that's good or not. I guess if the worst comes to the worst we can all rely on the GAT, if it happens?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 10, 2020, 10:06:14 am
Spoken like a true anarchist? Tbh I'm entirely confused by what your point is.

I'm taking that as a compliment. Thank you, you couldn't put it any better, like a true anarchist. Had to phrase my point like that, as to avoid any conflicts.

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.

Hope this assists a little bit with the interpretation of my initial viewpoint. I would like to not decipher it further, for the sake of not going beyond moderate controversy.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 10, 2020, 12:23:02 pm
I'm taking that as a compliment. Thank you, you couldn't put it any better, like a true anarchist. Had to phrase my point like that, as to avoid any conflicts.

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.

Hope this assists a little bit with the interpretation of my initial viewpoint. I would like to not decipher it further, for the sake of not going beyond moderate controversy.

I mean, I have more anarchist friends than I thought I'd ever have, and think we can all have an open discussion about these things without judging each other? (unless your views are discriminatory, in which case I'd like to help you see why those views are damaging to yourself as well as the person your discriminating against)

To which I have to say, I don't think society is AT ALL like you seem to say it is. I do agree that the first step is as important as the last, but also that point kind of doesn't follow from your first statement? It's like saying, "Steak is problematic in that it comes from animals - so we should all accept that cheesecake is the best dessert" - like sure, what you're SAYING is inherently true, but has no relevance to your initial point. The worst bit is that it encourages people to agree with you, because they agree with the one point you've actually given - cheesecake IS the best dessert.

And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Poet on August 10, 2020, 01:43:15 pm
And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?
Dude, you can't just put "no offence" in front of an insult and expect it to be unoffensive. Let's keep the conversation respectful on all sides, please. :)

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.
This pandemic and the way it has affected our society is unprecedented. Nobody alive today has been through anything like this; not just in reference to a full global pandemic, but one in the midst of rapid technological and scientific advancement. To say that Year 12 students this year are experiencing the "real world" is true in some sense; but it's also a fallacy. Year 12 is a period of transition, and at the moment, that movement - along with the rest of the world's progression - is being wildly interrupted. There's no VCE student this year that isn't fully aware of the impact this virus has had on our lives. Year 12 is part of the "real world". The struggles you're facing in education and the decision to cut exams are real. But it's not normal, and certainly not an experience that any of us graduates had to deal with. Our "real world" was very, very different to yours, and by no one's fault. No government, no society, no conspiracy. Just an extremely transmittable virus.

I don't like the idea but I kind of agree. Myself, I can't even remember a lot of my year 11 results... so I don't know, if they use that, if that's good or not. I guess if the worst comes to the worst we can all rely on the GAT, if it happens?
It's an unfortunate place to be in and I really, really feel for you guys. Standardised tests are a flawed tool useful only to those more academically-minded whilst ignoring those with more practical skills and understanding, but they're what people are used to - even if they can't be judged as an accurate representation of a student's abilities this year. Basing grades on Year 11 results is also an awful idea, considering the huge variation in attitudes and zero consideration for how students have changed this year. It's a rock and a hard place.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 10, 2020, 02:11:43 pm
Dude, you can't just put "no offence" in front of an insult and expect it to be unoffensive. Let's keep the conversation respectful on all sides, please. :)

I mean, noted - but I did mean it in that I legitimately don't mean or intend offence. Apologies to all involved
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on August 10, 2020, 02:19:52 pm
Interesting argument since research suggests that standardised tests are a poor method for testing a person's ability
The VCE/ATAR system of having standardised exams will not change for a long while, despite it being flawed. I'm not saying standardised tests are the best way to go but it has, for as long as I know, always been this way. It will continue to be this way. To clarify what I meant - I'm saying that our scheduled end of year exams are the best way forward to ensure that our study scores turn out somewhat fair/comparable. Resorting to only SAC scores and the GAT/year 11 results will be disastrous for many. They can't just abolish the system three quarters into the year and say 'scrap exams, we're going to do X instead' because standardised tests are inherently flawed.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 10, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
The VCE/ATAR system of having standardised exams will not change for a long while, despite it being flawed. I'm not saying standardised tests are the best way to go but it has, for as long as I know, always been this way. It will continue to be this way. To clarify what I meant - I'm saying that our scheduled end of year exams are the best way forward to ensure that our study scores turn out somewhat fair/comparable. Resorting to only SAC scores and the GAT/year 11 results will be disastrous for many. They can't just abolish the system three quarters into the year and say 'scrap exams, we're going to do X instead' because standardised tests are inherently flawed.

Yeah, fair. Granted, at this point it's still hypothetical, and I doubt the Government is the type to make a move as controversial as removing exams in the current state of things
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 10, 2020, 06:22:23 pm
And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?

Well am I trying to discriminate anyone? I appreciate your honesty (and I affirm that putting 'no offence' does signify this honesty) and I will still be vague sadly, since if I weren't I would probably disturb some (yes still being vague here). I'm judging you? No (pretty clear I am not judging any specific person if you look back on it). I don't want to be mean, but it seems that you're the only one that's making judgements on the individual, and I feel you shouldn't let this fire of yours damage you also. To summarise, just take my lines with a grain of salt.

Our "real world" was very, very different to yours, and by no one's fault. No government, no society, no conspiracy. Just an extremely transmittable virus.

Me being vague and taking this too off centre doesn't help. Re-evaluating what I initially posted, I guess my comments were beyond the conversation and also beyond just about the virus or these conspiracy assertions. But I will still say that my perception of this world can be understated as 'corruption'. Corruption not only in our current times, but centuries ago, many forms and types of dilemmas we have failed to solve. We can't change history, we can change how we operate. But it's hard to change how we operate when most aren't able to face what's at heart and recognise that they're in a sense repeating history in terms of the motives of those before us but with a different goal in mind (like they ever cared, all they care is to satisfy their 'unhealthy' needs). Putting a band-aid on things won't solve anything. Redefining things won't solve anything, if there's no consistent definition. A definition that is shared by all, a definition that those with certain motives won't find loopholes. This definition is impossible to be achieved atm in our 'real' world. What I'm discussing is definitely off topic, vague, and I'll leave it there.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 11, 2020, 08:26:33 am
Well am I trying to discriminate anyone? I appreciate your honesty (and I affirm that putting 'no offence' does signify this honesty) and I will still be vague sadly, since if I weren't I would probably disturb some (yes still being vague here). I'm judging you? No (pretty clear I am not judging any specific person if you look back on it). I don't want to be mean, but it seems that you're the only one that's making judgements on the individual, and I feel you shouldn't let this fire of yours damage you also. To summarise, just take my lines with a grain of salt.

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply you were being discriminatory OR judging of others, meant more that you should feel open to discussion without fear of either of those things happening. Hell, you're being so vague about everything I think it's basically impossible to even feel judged by you atm 😂 Was just hoping to get your actual thoughts on the table so we could have a discussion
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on August 11, 2020, 09:15:35 am
Our education minister has just said that not only will our ATARs be moderated, but also our study scores. They've created a new category of educational disadvantage that is supposed to take everything into consideration and 'level the playing field', and the GAT will be used to help determine our level of achievement and will play a part in this moderation. How does everyone feel about this?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 11, 2020, 09:43:11 am
Our education minister has just said that not only will our ATARs be moderated, but also our study scores. They've created a new category of educational disadvantage that is supposed to take everything into consideration and 'level the playing field', and the GAT will be used to help determine our level of achievement and will play a part in this moderation. How does everyone feel about this?

Interesting that they're going to moderate both study scores and ATARs - and I definitely feel that less is more in this situation, considering modifying study scores will modify ATARs as a direct consequence. Don't think they should be touching the ATARs as well

However, using the GAT is IMHO a good idea - this is what the GAT was always designed for, so it's not like anything has changed that much. Plus I feel they've given it enough time for people to realise that the GAT should be taken seriously
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on August 11, 2020, 09:43:55 am
Our education minister has just said that not only will our ATARs be moderated, but also our study scores. They've created a new category of educational disadvantage that is supposed to take everything into consideration and 'level the playing field', and the GAT will be used to help determine our level of achievement and will play a part in this moderation. How does everyone feel about this?
if it levels the playing field why haven't they done it before? I feel like a lot of the changes assume that VCE before the pandemic was a level playing field.

I haven't seen the press conference or statements so gonna have to look into the details before I comment properly.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 11, 2020, 09:52:37 am
Our education minister has just said that not only will our ATARs be moderated, but also our study scores. They've created a new category of educational disadvantage that is supposed to take everything into consideration and 'level the playing field', and the GAT will be used to help determine our level of achievement and will play a part in this moderation. How does everyone feel about this?
We simply don't have enough information yet; just so long as I get the marks I need (and would expect to be able to get) and it ends up pretty fair, I don't mind how they do it. Yes, using the GAT is a good idea, I  think. When did this information come out/where?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 11, 2020, 10:21:02 am
Sorry - I didn't mean to imply you were being discriminatory OR judging of others, meant more that you should feel open to discussion without fear of either of those things happening. Hell, you're being so vague about everything I think it's basically impossible to even feel judged by you atm 😂 Was just hoping to get your actual thoughts on the table so we could have a discussion

Well here's another reference (technically still relevant since you're referring to my comments from yesterday):

think we can all have an open discussion about these things without judging each other?

Two, am I fearing anything? 😪 I'm still going to stick to my position, and it's very clear that I'm open to anyone's criticism. My actual thoughts? Probably not on here thank you. End of discussion 🙂

Also, me being vague. Maybe 0.1% can dissect what I'm linking to. Since this is considered as undesirable, and I don't think an open discussion is exactly possible on here, I'll stop.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on August 11, 2020, 10:34:01 am
We simply don't have enough information yet; just so long as I get the marks I need (and would expect to be able to get) and it ends up pretty fair, I don't mind how they do it. Yes, using the GAT is a good idea, I  think. When did this information come out/where?
It was sent to schools and directed towards year 12 students. There was also a video with James Merlino talking about it, also sent to schools.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: homeworkisapotato on August 11, 2020, 01:13:01 pm
On the VCAA website they've said that they will use these to give us our study score/ATAR:
"the ranked order of students prior to and following the impact of coronavirus (COVID-19)
a studentís indicative grades prior to and following the impact of coronavirus (COVID-19)
school assessments completed prior to remote and flexible learning
the General Achievement Test (GAT)
a range of statistical analyses used to calculate final results."
So if you've had a decrease in performance following impact of corona but you were in the top 10 ranks prior to corona they'll give you the special consideration right?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: lm21074 on August 17, 2020, 06:03:43 pm
How's everyone feeling about the new VCE Unit 4 SAC protocols? :)
More info here.

Edit: See clarifying post below.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 17, 2020, 06:10:35 pm
How's everyone feeling about the new VCE Unit 4 SAC protocols? :)
More info here.
What do you mean? I don't see any 'new VCE Unit 4 SAC protocols'...? Although I may have misunderstood something.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: lm21074 on August 17, 2020, 06:29:17 pm
What do you mean? I don't see any 'new VCE Unit 4 SAC protocols'...? Although I may have misunderstood something.
Basically, students are allowed to leave their premises to undertake essential assessment (i.e. Unit 4 SACs).
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Snow Leopard on August 17, 2020, 06:51:37 pm
Just wondering:
1) How important do you think the GAT is this year? Is there any way to prepare for it if it is substantially more important this year as compared to other years?
2) Do you guys reckon the class of '21 will have to deal with this as well?
Spoiler
3) Anyone else feel like this new system is rigged? Like honestly...just add another section onto SEAS about impact due to COVID that doesn't rely on teachers so much subjectively assuming how a student would have done without coronavirus.   [/quote]

re people feeling sorry for Dan Andrews (don't think it was on this thread but still): yeah I definitely agree, first came the bushfires, then coronavirus, what next?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: whys on August 17, 2020, 07:06:01 pm
1) How important do you think the GAT is this year? Is there any way to prepare for it if it is substantially more important this year as compared to other years?
2) Do you guys reckon the class of '21 will have to deal with this as well?
Spoiler
3) Anyone else feel like this new system is rigged? Like honestly...just add another section onto SEAS about impact due to COVID that doesn't rely on teachers so much subjectively assuming how a student would have done without coronavirus.   
1) It will be important to do well on the GAT, however I still firmly believe you shouldn't be spending a substantial amount of time preparing or stressing yourself out about it. It's not going to play a major part in study score calculation as of now - it will be a factor to moderate scores and compare scores/assessments between schools but isn't going to actually count towards the final study score (as of now).
2) No, I really don't think so. I'm hopeful the vaccine will come out sometime in the middle of next year at least, meaning the class of 2021 won't be as affected as the class of 2020. If you are substantially impacted by the effects of COVID early next year, then there might be provisions in place but I don't think it will matter too much in the long run because you won't experience the same levels of disruption as we have.

Re. your spoiler: the system has always been somewhat rigged, people are just voicing their complaints now. There is a new SEAS section for education disadvantage caused by COVID (which basically every student will apply for), but the government is choosing to take other subjective measures such as purported rankings if COVID wasn't a thing from teachers (and I'm not sure why they are taking things like this into consideration). It's honestly quite counterintuitive.

Re. unit 4 SACs being undertaken at school: I don't know. There's still a choice here - schools can choose not to do this or they can. This furthers the difference in SAC administration methods, which is already such a big problem due to the virus. Overall it's good for subjects like English and other writing-based subjects where writing the essay prepares us better for the exam than typing the essay. However, if our goal is to minimise the spread, I don't think this will help a good deal. Especially now that we see a trend as cases start to recede. Do we really want to go out and mingle when there is always a possibility of a 3rd wave? I don't know if this is the best way to go.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 17, 2020, 07:06:21 pm
Just wondering:
1) How important do you think the GAT is this year? Is there any way to prepare for it if it is substantially more important this year as compared to other years?
2) Do you guys reckon the class of '21 will have to deal with this as well?
Spoiler
3) Anyone else feel like this new system is rigged? Like honestly...just add another section onto SEAS about impact due to COVID that doesn't rely on teachers so much subjectively assuming how a student would have done without coronavirus.   

re people feeling sorry for Dan Andrews (don't think it was on this thread but still): yeah I definitely agree, first came the bushfires, then coronavirus, what next?
1. GAT will be monstrously more important this year. The GAT is designed fairly well in that it tests a set of skills, not a set of knowledge - the best way to prepare for it is by practicing those skills. Do some practice GAT essays and ask your teacher to mark them (if they're willing - I was lucky in that my high school English teacher used to be a GAT assessor, and was more than happy to mark practice GAT essays for us), then go through the multiple choice questions and answer them all as well as you can. Realise which of the three sections you're doing best at, and which you need to work on - but also consider which of those areas you need to do well on. The essay section is going to be important since everyone has to do an English, but if outside of that all that you study is maths and science, don't worry too much about doing poorly on the humanities section.

2. No clue. Only time will tell. It's probably best not to make conjectures about this. This is not a system you can try and manipulate, anyway, until we know exactly how it works - otherwise trying to "game it" may just end up hurting you in the long run.

3. Lots of people are, and many have even said so in this thread. I, personally, don't think it is - and sounds kinda fair. Sure, you could add it into SEAS, but VTAC likely wouldn't be prepared for the amount of moderation they'd have to put into it, and it would end up leading into nearly everyone getting the same SEAS bonus, which would just artificially boost everyone's ATARs anyway AND the clearly-ins as a result. Putting it in SEAS would lead to the exact thing that everyone is worried about happening. Whereas the system they've proposed sounds like it'll only be pushing up the people whose both GATs and teachers suggest they could've achieved higher than they will as a result. I maintain that - based on the information that has been made available to us - if you do well on the GAT, were doing well this year before COVID, and continue to do well, you won't be disadvantaged. However, even if you were doing poorly before COVID, and are doing great now, you likely won't be disadvantaged EITHER - and the same for if you did well before COVID, but aren't doing well now. This doesn't sound like a system that will disadvantage anyone other than those who were already doing poorly and likely to not get good ATARs anyway (which is a topic for another thread)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Snow Leopard on August 18, 2020, 11:30:40 am
Thanks for your insight whys and keltingmeith!  :)
If I'm just a Yr 11 student this year and doing a LOTE 3/4, what section of the GAT do you reckon I should do well on? Also how would I be impacted if I have a small cohort (12 people)?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: homeworkisapotato on August 18, 2020, 07:54:56 pm
Thanks for your insight whys and keltingmeith!  :)
If I'm just a Yr 11 student this year and doing a LOTE 3/4, what section of the GAT do you reckon I should do well on? Also how would I be impacted if I have a small cohort (12 people)?
Hi! I'm not 100% sure on this so take it with a grain of salt. As languages does not directly correlate with any of the sections, I'd say the writing tasks. However, I strongly believe that you should strive to do well on ALL of the sections, as no one really knows how the GAT is going to be used this year. With small cohorts, the achievements of individuals have a bigger effect overall, but this year I think they'll assess GAT results individually.

What does everyone think about the importance of Unit 4 sac ranks this year? Do you all think that the weighting of sacs in regards to our ATAR has been decreased drastically? I kind of want it to be...the sacs run in this unit are all over the place in terms of what schools are doing. Frankly, I'd prefer the weighting of unit 4 sacs to be reduced even further, if not completely cut out with only unit 3 sac rankings mattering, as external factors affecting sac performance of individuals has been drastically affected. By factors I mean mental health issues caused by isolation, improperly moderated sac conditions allowing students to cheat, home lives interfering with health and performance, and just so much more.

Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: angrybiscuit on August 24, 2020, 03:19:13 pm
I'm so worried about the GAT. I did horrendous last year and thinking about what would have happened if they used my GAT for my study score just gives me nightmares. I know that they need it for moderation this year but still not a fan that it's important. Because I do all science and maths, should I put less effort into the arts/hums part of the GAT or is it still important for me to perform well in them?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 24, 2020, 03:28:11 pm
I'm so worried about the GAT. I did horrendous last year and thinking about what would have happened if they used my GAT for my study score just gives me nightmares. I know that they need it for moderation this year but still not a fan that it's important. Because I do all science and maths, should I put less effort into the arts/hums part of the GAT or is it still important for me to perform well in them?
Don't forget the English subject.
Also, if you did the GAT last year you've at least had practice...? Don't worry about it, too... you're a year older now, I guess you can do better! You can do this!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on August 27, 2020, 10:17:38 pm
Does anyone know/think we will be starting face-to-face learning in the last week of this term, as the 6 week lockdown ends before then? Just curious if I've missed something as our teachers are positive that we will be starting.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: brothanathan on August 27, 2020, 11:49:58 pm
Does anyone know/think we will be starting face-to-face learning in the last week of this term, as the 6 week lockdown ends before then?

If that does happen, I beg everyone to p l e a s e keep their mask on as much as possible :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 28, 2020, 08:56:18 am
Does anyone know/think we will be starting face-to-face learning in the last week of this term, as the 6 week lockdown ends before then? Just curious if I've missed something as our teachers are positive that we will be starting.

Government isn't clear on if stage 4 will actually end with the 6 weeks, because numbers aren't going down as fast as they hoped. We'll likely get some information on this on the week of the 7th of September. I have heard, however, that the CHO would consider less than 50 new cases per day a success, and worth easing restrictions for if we get there
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 28, 2020, 09:29:28 am
If that does happen, I beg everyone to p l e a s e keep their mask on as much as possible :)
Would this include people who can't wear a mask for medical reasons? Or would we be forced to stay at home if we don't keep our masks on?
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on August 28, 2020, 02:17:42 pm
Would this include people who can't wear a mask for medical reasons? Or would we be forced to stay at home if we don't keep our masks on?
I feel like this is a question that no-one on AN can answer, probably not even most people in government could answer it. What will happen in the next few weeks/months is very uncertain.


As an aside (purely anecdotal and obviously I would have different circumstances to you, but thought I'd say it in case it helps), I have asthma and heart issues and have found using proper surgical masks over homemade/cloth masks much better. After you adjust to using them they're fine, it can just take a bit of practice to get used to wearing them. Surgical masks have been worn by doctors for years and statistically speaking there's going to be surgeons with severe asthma who have to wear surgical masks for long periods of time in theatre - they have to be safe to use.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 28, 2020, 03:33:43 pm
I feel like this is a question that no-one on AN can answer, probably not even most people in government could answer it. What will happen in the next few weeks/months is very uncertain.


As an aside (purely anecdotal and obviously I would have different circumstances to you, but thought I'd say it in case it helps), I have asthma and heart issues and have found using proper surgical masks over homemade/cloth masks much better. After you adjust to using them they're fine, it can just take a bit of practice to get used to wearing them. Surgical masks have been worn by doctors for years and statistically speaking there's going to be surgeons with severe asthma who have to wear surgical masks for long periods of time in theatre - they have to be safe to use.
Thanks for the tip! I also have asthma, but since that's combined with 66% lung capacity, I can't wear a mask for the whole day - I find fifteen minutes on the train exhausting enough. Maybe I'll try the surgical masks sometime (I guess I'll have to at some point, given I want to be a nurse...?)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 28, 2020, 04:51:36 pm
Thanks for the tip! I also have asthma, but since that's combined with 66% lung capacity, I can't wear a mask for the whole day - I find fifteen minutes on the train exhausting enough. Maybe I'll try the surgical masks sometime (I guess I'll have to at some point, given I want to be a nurse...?)
Definitely try a surgical mask, my mum has one lung and can wear it for the entire 8 hour day at work and it's fine :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on August 28, 2020, 04:56:22 pm
Don't want to derail from education further, but adding to the above, surgical masks are also better at droplet control so better for you if you are in a compromised health state :)

Back on education - honestly my year hasn't been affected *too* much but was announced today our end of year conference where we present our research project will be over zoom and our final exam will also be online. I guess I'm not that surprised but I just hadn't really thought about how things will happen in the months to come!
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: keltingmeith on August 28, 2020, 05:02:03 pm
Don't want to derail from education further, but adding to the above, surgical masks are also better at droplet control so better for you if you are in a compromised health state :)

Back on education - honestly my year hasn't been affected *too* much but was announced today our end of year conference where we present our research project will be over zoom and our final exam will also be online. I guess I'm not that surprised but I just hadn't really thought about how things will happen in the months to come!

Same - I was meant to have a camp-like intensive at the end of the year that's been cut in half, with the first half being entirely virtual, which kinda sucks for several reasons (one of them being my inability to pay rent since I apparently won't be able to work during it...). But oh well, we've all got to make sacrifices
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Sine on August 28, 2020, 05:11:06 pm
I don't think it is particularly useful anecdotally comparing medical conditions or a small sample of people with the same medical condition since they won't all have the same experiences with masks.

Whilst I think within reason everyone should at least try to see whether they are able to wear a mask/face covering (as others have suggested try surgical masks or even just a face-covering if other masks are troublesome). If you do have asthma you don't need to wear a face-covering as per the Department of Health and Human Services Victoria. https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/face-coverings-covid-19#do-i-have-to-wear-a-face-covering-if-i-have-asthma. However, this would likely mean you need to be carrying around proof of your condition. It would be worthwhile having a talk with your GP in regards to what would be the best option for you.

Obviously, just because the rule is there doesn't mean you need to exploit it.

Closing discussion on this here :)
For further discussion use the general COVID-19 thread.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: lm21074 on August 28, 2020, 06:32:04 pm
FYI, the general COVID-19 thread can be found here :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 28, 2020, 07:09:39 pm
Don't want to derail from education further, but adding to the above, surgical masks are also better at droplet control so better for you if you are in a compromised health state :)

Back on education - honestly my year hasn't been affected *too* much but was announced today our end of year conference where we present our research project will be over zoom and our final exam will also be online. I guess I'm not that surprised but I just hadn't really thought about how things will happen in the months to come!
I am in a pretty good state with my education, my school has been very good with remote learning and I don't think that my marks have changed in any way. I really think I am on track to meet my study score goals and at the end of the day I don't think that COVID has significantly affected my education. I have felt a bit more demotivated and tired during quarantine but I know that is normal. There have been not as many co-curricular activities which is sad for me but some have been moved remotely. My mental health has not been as good as normal but I am taking time for myself and being kinder on myself. I try to keep up with my friends as much as possible and walking in nature. I am perfectly okay but as always my mood can go up and down.

Basically, I feel fortunate enough to feel as though my education hasn't been affected and I feel safe and content :) :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: K888 on August 28, 2020, 07:14:12 pm
Same - I was meant to have a camp-like intensive at the end of the year that's been cut in half, with the first half being entirely virtual, which kinda sucks for several reasons (one of them being my inability to pay rent since I apparently won't be able to work during it...). But oh well, we've all got to make sacrifices
I honestly don't hate this online format, they're gonna split us up into relevant subgroups to then present whereas I think if it was in person, we would have had to do it in front of the whole cohort/most of the cohort. Feels a lot less daunting because I won't have to get up in front of heaps of people haha. In the same respect though, doing a big presentation would have been cool given its been a big project that took us a good 6 months.

I am in a pretty good state with my education, my school has been very good with remote learning and I don't think that my marks have changed in any way. I really think I am on track to meet my study score goals and at the end of the day I don't think that COVID has significantly affected my education. I have felt a bit more demotivated and tired during quarantine but I know that is normal. There have been not as many co-curricular activities which is sad for me but some have been moved remotely. My mental health has not been as good as normal but I am taking time for myself and being kinder on myself. I try to keep up with my friends as much as possible and walking in nature. I am perfectly okay but as always my mood can go up and down.

Basically, I feel fortunate enough to feel as though my education hasn't been affected and I feel safe and content :) :)
This is so good to hear! Great that you're being kind to yourself too. What co-curricular activities were you involved in prior to COVID? When I was at school I was pretty much solely in sport co-curriculars so that wouldn't have worked well with moving online haha.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: eloisegrace on August 28, 2020, 09:22:43 pm
This is so good to hear! Great that you're being kind to yourself too. What co-curricular activities were you involved in prior to COVID? When I was at school I was pretty much solely in sport co-curriculars so that wouldn't have worked well with moving online haha.
Iím involved in a lot of things! Mainly involved in sport, I participated in diving and netball twice a week outside of school and in school I did 2 sports most terms which would take up 2 morning and 1 night a week :) I am also really involved in house events. Remotely we have had cross country and diving, and right now we are doing music, dance and drama online. I somehow signed up for all three!! For music we have done audio and video, drama is an audio play and dance has been postponed until next term. I also did lots of service activities at school haha. I was very involved but I loved it and adored school for both this and the social aspect. 

This is slightly off this topic, but is any school making them do a practice GAT. Because it may be worth more this year, we are doing a practice in the first week of the holidays and actually getting a VCAA GAT marker to mark them and give us feedback before our test :)
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: Chocolatemilkshake on August 29, 2020, 06:46:46 am
I am in a pretty good state with my education, my school has been very good with remote learning and I don't think that my marks have changed in any way.
This is great Eloise! I feel pretty similar and as much as confinement sucks, I havenít been significantly disadvantaged by COVID from an education perspective. I mean, I really miss my extracurricular activities and my friends but so does everyone else. Honestly I think itís really important to be grateful for what I do have and that Iím still receiving a high quality education during a global pandemic.

This is slightly off this topic, but is any school making them do a practice GAT. Because it may be worth more this year, we are doing a practice in the first week of the holidays and actually getting a VCAA GAT marker to mark them and give us feedback before our test :)
Yeah we are doing one next week online and then our writing pieces will be externally marked as well.
Title: Re: COVID-19 and Education
Post by: ArtyDreams on August 29, 2020, 08:53:53 am
Yep - we also got the news that a practise GAT will be done at the end of the this term!