Tracks and Into the Wild discussion

[lovelyperson]

Hello there!

Seeing that there aren't much resources for these texts (or rather the entire comparative unit in fact), I thought, why not make a discussion thread that will in effect be one? So thus, this thread was born. I'll start off the discussion: what is the importance/significance of the Byron quote in the beginning of Into the Wild, and how does it compare to the Dorris Lessing one in Tracks?

Feel free to contribute!

 

[clarke54321]

Hello there!

Seeing that there aren't much resources for these texts (or rather the entire comparative unit in fact), I thought, why not make a discussion thread that will in effect be one? So thus, this thread was born. I'll start off the discussion: what is the importance/significance of the Byron quote in the beginning of Into the Wild, and how does it compare to the Dorris Lessing one in Tracks?

Really great idea! 

Hmmm....Both of these quotes are very interesting and pertinent to each respective text.

The Byron quote is significant in the sense that it really punctuates the ecstasy and pleasure that is associated with idleness. The paradox that society is where no one intrudes is fascinating. This seems to indicate the notion that one's true sense of self / understanding of place in the world only emerges when they are left alone. I also get the sense that it is one's own experience in the world, which is what dictates their own understanding of standards/expectations.

I'd be interested to hear what people think of the quote's last line: 'I love not man less, but nature more.....'
To some extent I see this in Chris. But at the same time, he resists quite strongly against human engagement. At these times, I feel as though he wants to immerse himself in nature's bounds only. I mean, he cuts his family photos up, doesn't call his sister/parents ever and claims that he no longer has a family. Obviously his ideas change towards the end, but it is interesting to consider his progress.

The Doris Lessing quote is equally thought provoking. For me, the desert symbolises something intermediate. Almost like this path to a new self/ idea of the world/ sought after solution. But to gain access to this path, one must shed burdens, like the quote suggests. This rings strong bells for Robyn, who admits that she wanted to shed burdens/ pare away what was unnecessary in her postscript. So after this path is passed, one can see the 'purple and orange and grey' of the world. In other words, they can see every colour/ part/ texture of themselves with clarity. Interesting also, that one is in this intermediate phase 'alone.' Only the individual is able to find their true essence (no interference from others).

Therefore, in terms of comparison, both seem to suggest that one must be alone to unearth their true essence. Further, both highlight the necessity of doing so in nature. For everything can be seen and felt with honesty/truth there. Society perhaps obscures this sense of truth and clarity.

On a different note, do you believe Chris only values human companionship because death is imminent? There seem to be signs leading up to this moment to suggest otherwise, but I'm still conflicted.

Love to hear what others think 

[Lavar Big BBB Balls]

Has anyone actually managed to discuss the music in ITW within an essay?

Do we need to state the artist and song name if we do??

[clarke54321]

Has anyone actually managed to discuss the music in ITW within an essay?

Do we need to state the artist and song name if we do??

Yes, I've spoken of lyrics quite a bit. I've made reference to Eddie Vedder, but never the song title. For example: In conjunction with Vedder's lyrics, ....evidence...., Penn seeks to...

This may depend on teacher preference, though. Has your teacher given you any info on this?

[lovelyperson]

Really great idea! 

Hmmm....Both of these quotes are very interesting and pertinent to each respective text.

The Byron quote is significant in the sense that it really punctuates the ecstasy and pleasure that is associated with idleness. The paradox that society is where no one intrudes is fascinating. This seems to indicate the notion that one's true sense of self / understanding of place in the world only emerges when they are left alone. I also get the sense that it is one's own experience in the world, which is what dictates their own understanding of standards/expectations.

I'd be interested to hear what people think of the quote's last line: 'I love not man less, but nature more.....'
To some extent I see this in Chris. But at the same time, he resists quite strongly against human engagement. At these times, I feel as though he wants to immerse himself in nature's bounds only. I mean, he cuts his family photos up, doesn't call his sister/parents ever and claims that he no longer has a family. Obviously his ideas change towards the end, but it is interesting to consider his progress.

The Doris Lessing quote is equally thought provoking. For me, the desert symbolises something intermediate. Almost like this path to a new self/ idea of the world/ sought after solution. But to gain access to this path, one must shed burdens, like the quote suggests. This rings strong bells for Robyn, who admits that she wanted to shed burdens/ pare away what was unnecessary in her postscript. So after this path is passed, one can see the 'purple and orange and grey' of the world. In other words, they can see every colour/ part/ texture of themselves with clarity. Interesting also, that one is in this intermediate phase 'alone.' Only the individual is able to find their true essence (no interference from others).

Therefore, in terms of comparison, both seem to suggest that one must be alone to unearth their true essence. Further, both highlight the necessity of doing so in nature. For everything can be seen and felt with honesty/truth there. Society perhaps obscures this sense of truth and clarity.

On a different note, do you believe Chris only values human companionship because death is imminent? There seem to be signs leading up to this moment to suggest otherwise, but I'm still conflicted.

Love to hear what others think 

Ooooo, nice ideas! I've personally always read the Byron quote, the last line in particular, to suggest that Chris didn't take his journey as an act of social criticism but rather to find himself and happiness within the wilderness - something that he couldn't do within society. There are some points in the movie where he's all like "society is toxic" but this just adds to the Penn's broader assertion, in my opinion, that Chris' ideals are not entirely flawless and are ultimately romanticised, radical and not grounded in the harsh reality. This is supported by the fact that the 'bliss' he experiences gradually declines as the film progresses, whilst the physical hardships and labour he faces increases. He is completely ignorant to the fact that life is hard, and this all culminates in his death. 

For the Lessing quote, I honestly just took it at face value, in that you can't overcome your challenges unless you 'shed your burdens', whether it be thoughts that cloud your judgement or luxuries of life, as they will otherwise hinder your journey. I just assumed that was the point of the quote as the entire first half of the memoir is about Robin 'shedding her burdens' that have been preventing her from going on the trip. But you bring up an interesting and valid point with the "purple and orange and grey" and self-discovery thing. That definitely fits well with the personal transformation Robin undergoes throughout the novel (e.g from "door-mattish" to "aggressively ready to pounce"), and it probably makes more sense than my interpretation to be honest.

And to answer your question, sort of? Death does play a factor in his realisation, but I honestly don't think it was death itself that changed him. He pretty much gave no fucks with dying for the most part, and there are many instances of this throughout the film, such as him going down rapids without a helmet or experience, and venturing into the wilderness with no connection back to help in case something went wrong. What I do think caused his epiphany, rather, is his acknowledgement that solidarity has its limits, and that you need human companionship. His statement that "happiness is only real when shared" pretty sums this up. Another reason I could see why he values human relationships at the end is that he realises that he isn't as "supertramp" anymore. It's at a bit of stretch but he was pretty cocky at the start of the film, and maybe this could've lead him to believe that he could be entirely self-sufficient without the help from others. Dunno really. 

Other than that, those were the only reasons that I could come up with; what were you thinking of when you said that there were signs to suggest otherwise?

Has anyone actually managed to discuss the music in ITW within an essay?

Do we need to state the artist and song name if we do??

Yes, yes and yes (well, at least according to my teacher). If you're having trouble integrating the soundtrack into your essays, try and think of the song lyrics as reflections of the character's inner thoughts and feelings. This is pretty much applicable to every lyric in this film, with the other instances of it being a commentary of sorts for what's happening. Also, don't forget that there's more to the soundtrack than lyrics (e.g tempo, major or minor key, instruments used).

Edit: Just had a random thought about the Byron quote - maybe it's supposed to provide a point of comparison between what Chris wants to achieve and what he actually achieves?

[clarke54321]

There are some points in the movie where he's all like "society is toxic" but this just adds to the Penn's broader assertion, in my opinion, that Chris' ideals are not entirely flawless and are ultimately romanticised, radical and not grounded in the harsh reality. This is supported by the fact that the 'bliss' he experiences gradually declines as the film progresses, whilst the physical hardships and labour he faces increases. He is completely ignorant to the fact that life is hard, and this all culminates in his death. 

I definitely agree that his ideals are romanticised and thereby flawed. Perhaps this is the reason for his little to no preparation. He seems to think that nature will immediately nurture him. This is also a good point for comparison with Robyn. As she progresses and gains a greater understanding of her environment (through Eddie especially), she becomes too lost in it. This is most evidence before Diggity's death, where she talks about the environment not being able to teach her anything else because she now knows all its intricacies. I think it is her romanticised connection with nature, which precipitates this tragedy. But unlike Chris, she has a preconceived idea of how difficult the journey will be without adequate preparation. For this reason, I think they differ in maturity levels.

For the Lessing quote, I honestly just took it at face value, in that you can't overcome your challenges unless you 'shed your burdens', whether it be thoughts that cloud your judgement or luxuries of life, as they will otherwise hinder your journey. I just assumed that was the point of the quote as the entire first half of the memoir is about Robin 'shedding her burdens' that have been preventing her from going on the trip.

I can't believe I never linked this to the chapter title!! Of course! This interpretation has been made developed with way more clarity than my own. I've also been looking for a way to talk about the different chapter titles (both in Tracks and ITTW), so this is perfect. Do you think Robyn succeeds in shedding her burdens?

And to answer your question, sort of? Death does play a factor in his realisation, but I honestly don't think it was death itself that changed him. He pretty much gave no fucks with dying for the most part, and there are many instances of this throughout the film, such as him going down rapids without a helmet or experience, and venturing into the wilderness with no connection back to help in case something went wrong. What I do think caused his epiphany, rather, is his acknowledgement that solidarity has its limits, and that you need human companionship. His statement that "happiness is only real when shared" pretty sums this up. Another reason I could see why he values human relationships at the end is that he realises that he isn't as "supertramp" anymore. It's at a bit of stretch but he was pretty cocky at the start of the film, and maybe this could've lead him to believe that he could be entirely self-sufficient without the help from others. Dunno really. 

Yes, he does have an epiphany earlier that he cannot sustain his isolation. I found it interesting when he was reading Tolstoy's Family Happiness. For me, this acted as a turning point in his development. He talks about being useful to others. Perhaps his interactions along the way have cultivated the knowledge in him that this is a possibility. Certainly, before his death, there was a flashback of all his relations along the way, which further evidences his appreciation of human bonds. That's a fascinating interpretation of the name change. I always saw Supertramp as this temporary identity. Something that he could use to find himself with no bounds/ connection to the past. Therefore, when he has a firm idea of who he is, he can reignite his past self. But yeah, I also agree that he had to lower his arrogance by the end.

Other than that, those were the only reasons that I could come up with; what were you thinking of when you said that there were signs to suggest otherwise?

So definitely Tolstoy and the Family Happiness book, like I've said above. But also when he cannot pass the river. This instance connects directly to his dejected diary entry of 'scared, lonely.' He acknowledges that he has cut off all necessary ties here, and needs help. His fear is a product of his independence. This last one may be a bit of a stretch, but when he is with Ron (I don't remember where they are, something high up maybe? Watching fireworks?) and he cannot stop looking at him. Penn really emphasises this moment. Perhaps Chris, in an implicit sense, is re-assessing his assertion regarding human interaction and the pleasure to come from it.

Edit: Just had a random thought about the Byron quote - maybe it's supposed to provide a point of comparison between what Chris wants to achieve and what he actually achieves?

This is a wonderful idea! I definitely perceive a type of inversion at the end. With the 'happiness is only real with shared' quote, there is the underlying notion that happiness achieved alone is only ever short-lived and maybe even superficial (as indicated by 'real'). This thereby undermines a large chunk of Chris' initial ideas.

I'd love to hear what people think about Robyn and Rick's relationship. Does it parallel that of Chris and his family? 

[lovelyperson]

I definitely agree that his ideals are romanticised and thereby flawed. Perhaps this is the reason for his little to no preparation. He seems to think that nature will immediately nurture him. This is also a good point for comparison with Robyn. As she progresses and gains a greater understanding of her environment (through Eddie especially), she becomes too lost in it. This is most evidence before Diggity's death, where she talks about the environment not being able to teach her anything else because she now knows all its intricacies. I think it is her romanticised connection with nature, which precipitates this tragedy. But unlike Chris, she has a preconceived idea of how difficult the journey will be without adequate preparation. For this reason, I think they differ in maturity levels.

Yeah, I agree, but an interesting thing to note is that Robin is writing in the past tense, so the voice is of a more wise and experienced Robin, whereas Chris' story is pretty much told in the present tense. There's also the element of an unreliable narrator that she admits to in her failure to describe her experiences "dispassionately" and without the "language of mysticism". So it's pretty much impossible to tell whether if she knew before hand that the trip would be difficult without adequate preparation, or if this was just something she observed and added in after while writing the memoir. Disregarding that though, their maturity levels (or rather naivety) is a good point of comparison. Robin openly admits in the very first sentence that she was naive ("I arrived in the Alice at five a.m with a dog, six dollars, and a small suitcase full of inappropriate clothes.") whereas Chris doesn't, and it could be implied that he thought that he wasn't judging from all the stuff he has with him in the opening sequence. And this becomes inversely proportional almost throughout the film; Robin becomes more experienced as the film progresses, whilst Chris' slowly realises that he knows nothing and is naive.

I can't believe I never linked this to the chapter title!! Of course! This interpretation has been made developed with way more clarity than my own. I've also been looking for a way to talk about the different chapter titles (both in Tracks and ITTW), so this is perfect. Do you think Robyn succeeds in shedding her burdens?

Yes! There's some really good quotes that suggest this (e.g "as if I were made of some fine, bright, airy musical substance" and "the last burning bridge to my old self collapsed"). You could also look at her growing relationship with the Indigenous population throughout out the memoir, and how that is possible through her 'shedding her "white guilt".

This last one may be a bit of a stretch, but when he is with Ron (I don't remember where they are, something high up maybe? Watching fireworks?) and he cannot stop looking at him. Penn really emphasises this moment. Perhaps Chris, in an implicit sense, is re-assessing his assertion regarding human interaction and the pleasure to come from it.

Hmmm, I like the idea about Ron, but doesn't Chris quite coldly reject Ron's proposal to adopt him in the end? He doesn't even hug him goodbye, and leaves Ron crying alone in the car, not even turning back to check on him.

I'd love to hear what people think about Robyn and Rick's relationship. Does it parallel that of Chris and his family? 

I'm honestly stuck on this one and the only comparison I could come up with is that Rick is involved in Robin's journey, as evident in how she states that it "had fundamentally changed [them] both", whereas Chris' family isn't as much in his. His family's situation do indeed play a part in his motivations to go into the wilderness, but he ultimately tries to distance himself from them, and his journey is pretty much a solo one (there's this one really good shot that reinforces this; it's the wide angle shot with the mountain range as a backdrop against a really small Chris). What do you think?

[ooft]

Hey, was just wondering if anyone could maybe help me out with writing about the effects of isolation and solitude in tracks and into the wild.  In what ways are they really explored in each text?

[clarke54321]

I'm honestly stuck on this one and the only comparison I could come up with is that Rick is involved in Robin's journey, as evident in how she states that it "had fundamentally changed [them] both", whereas Chris' family isn't as much in his. His family's situation do indeed play a part in his motivations to go into the wilderness, but he ultimately tries to distance himself from them, and his journey is pretty much a solo one (there's this one really good shot that reinforces this; it's the wide angle shot with the mountain range as a backdrop against a really small Chris). What do you think?

Yeah, that's definitely a great idea! To me, both Rick and Chris' family (predominantly Chris' parents) share many similarities. They both have difficulties understanding Chris and Robyn's motivations- not understanding why one would want to do something alone / have no interference from the outside world. These relationships also inhibit Chris and Robyn from unearthing their true essence (at least in the early stages). They inflict unwanted identities, or the identities that align with rigid society, onto the protagonists. Obviously Robyn has the opportunity to build on this relationship and express her gratitude for its existence at the end of the novel. But Chris never has the opportunity to physically mend this relationship. He envisages a reconciliation.

Hey, was just wondering if anyone could maybe help me out with writing about the effects of isolation and solitude in tracks and into the wild.  In what ways are they really explored in each text?

Perhaps some thinking questions would be:

1) How do both Robyn and Chris react to uncertainty? Do they rely on the support of others to find confidence or a sense of validation? Think Diggity/camels/friends for Robyn and Jan & Rainey/ Wayne/ Ron for Chris.

2)How does Penn and Davidson depict their protagonists' when they are utterly immersed in their landscape? What breakthroughs do they make? Given the contrasting forms of novel and film, this may be expressed differently. For example, Penn communicates Chris' sense of development through film shots/music/etc.

3) Do either Chris or Robyn resent their lone journeys? That is, do they miss aspects of society that they have effectively secluded themselves from?

[lovelyperson]

Yeah, that's definitely a great idea! To me, both Rick and Chris' family (predominantly Chris' parents) share many similarities. They both have difficulties understanding Chris and Robyn's motivations- not understanding why one would want to do something alone / have no interference from the outside world. These relationships also inhibit Chris and Robyn from unearthing their true essence (at least in the early stages). They inflict unwanted identities, or the identities that align with rigid society, onto the protagonists. Obviously Robyn has the opportunity to build on this relationship and express her gratitude for its existence at the end of the novel. But Chris never has the opportunity to physically mend this relationship. He envisages a reconciliation.

Really great idea, and it possibly offers another point of comparison (for me at least) between the extent in which their families and friends understand the motivations behind their journeys. Chris' family is totally oblivious to why he leaves his seemingly perfect life as a rich, college educated male and ventures into the wilderness to live a life antithetical of what they expected him to. That is, with the exception of Carine, who knew that Chris would eventually "break away" and "emancipate" himself from his parent's, and by extension society's, "tedious" expectations. Robin's family however shows some more understanding and there's two quotes that really demonstrates this - the one Robin's friend back home says whilst walking in the bush with her, and the exchange Robin has with the her dad right before the trip. They do indeed express some confusion over why she has to specifically cross the desert with camels, but they however either understand or support her intentions.

On that note, what do you think Robin's intentions were for undertaking the trip?

[clarke54321]

Really great idea, and it possibly offers another point of comparison (for me at least) between the extent in which their families and friends understand the motivations behind their journeys. Chris' family is totally oblivious to why he leaves his seemingly perfect life as a rich, college educated male and ventures into the wilderness to live a life antithetical of what they expected him to. That is, with the exception of Carine, who knew that Chris would eventually "break away" and "emancipate" himself from his parent's, and by extension society's, "tedious" expectations. Robin's family however shows some more understanding and there's two quotes that really demonstrates this - the one Robin's friend back home says whilst walking in the bush with her, and the exchange Robin has with the her dad right before the trip. They do indeed express some confusion over why she has to specifically cross the desert with camels, but they however either understand or support her intentions.

On that note, what do you think Robin's intentions were for undertaking the trip?

Yes, I definitely agree with your interpretation regarding both families.

I think Robyn's main motivation is to seclude herself from the toxic, societal standards that pervaded Australian women in the 1970's. Frequently she expresses disdain towards her 'infernal cowardice' as a woman and the 'sweet, pliable, forgiving, compassionate and door-mattish' qualities that are somehow inextricably attached to this idea. Like in the epigraph and postscript, she alludes to her desire to shed these 'burdens' and make her own identity. This is a yearning shared by both and Chris. The pair want to test themselves alone and unearth their true essence without the interference of external influences.

I've been looking at some of the VCAA sample prompts for these texts. One refers to the way personal strength is explored. How do you think both characters establish or develop their personal strength? Do you think they can only do so through others?

[lovelyperson]

Yes, I definitely agree with your interpretation regarding both families.

I think Robyn's main motivation is to seclude herself from the toxic, societal standards that pervaded Australian women in the 1970's. Frequently she expresses disdain towards her 'infernal cowardice' as a woman and the 'sweet, pliable, forgiving, compassionate and door-mattish' qualities that are somehow inextricably attached to this idea. Like in the epigraph and postscript, she alludes to her desire to shed these 'burdens' and make her own identity. This is a yearning shared by both and Chris. The pair want to test themselves alone and unearth their true essence without the interference of external influences.

I've been looking at some of the VCAA sample prompts for these texts. One refers to the way personal strength is explored. How do you think both characters establish or develop their personal strength? Do you think they can only do so through others?

Will get back to your question - we're going to write a practice essay in class for that prompt sometime next week and I don't want to spoil it by thinking about it too much beforehand! But something that instantly popped into my mind when I read your question, is that  both Chris and Robin develop and learn the limits of their personal strengths within the wilderness (either from facing dangers alone or through their relationships with others).
 
How do you think they develop/establish their personal strengths? Also, on a completely different note, we've been having some really interesting discussions in class about gender, and how that has influenced both their journeys. Do you have any thoughts on this?

p.s Sorry for the super late reply - I've been super busy with SACs for the past week!

[LifeisaConstantStruggle]

Edit: Just had a random thought about the Byron quote - maybe it's supposed to provide a point of comparison between what Chris wants to achieve and what he actually achieves?

The insertion of the poem could also be a deliberate decision by the scriptwriter as Lord Byron and Chris are very similar characters imo, rebellious young men who both cherish travel and the wilderness, and died at a very young age. (Byron died at age 36).The complete poem itself (Childe Harold's Pilgrimage) is about a young man disillusioned with his life looks for distraction in foreign lands. (Kinda similar to Chris' experiences lmao). I guess it is through the poem at the beginning, the movie establishes most of its primary context and mood etc. I'm actually not really sure if it is okay to include background info in essays, or how to even do it haha pls educate if you can thx

[clarke54321]

Will get back to your question - we're going to write a practice essay in class for that prompt sometime next week and I don't want to spoil it by thinking about it too much beforehand! But something that instantly popped into my mind when I read your question, is that  both Chris and Robin develop and learn the limits of their personal strengths within the wilderness (either from facing dangers alone or through their relationships with others).
 
How do you think they develop/establish their personal strengths? Also, on a completely different note, we've been having some really interesting discussions in class about gender, and how that has influenced both their journeys. Do you have any thoughts on this?

p.s Sorry for the super late reply - I've been super busy with SACs for the past week!

No worries at all! I know how it is with SACs

That's also fine regarding the essay topic. I just finished writing it last week and it turned out better than I had initially anticipated.

Good point about limitations. I agree that the forces of nature and it's unpredictability cause each to question their own boundaries. Unlike nature, which provides an explicit challenge, relationships provoke more of the subconscious challenge. Personally, I believe that Chris is more receptive to these limitations than Robyn is. Perhaps she is more stubborn than Chris. Again, this comes back to the debate of whether Chris' attitude is moulded by his imminent death.

Hmmm.....gender is an interesting consideration. I feel that this resonates more strongly with Robyn than with Chris. The notion of women being overrun by cowardice and this burdensome, self-indulgent negativity. She wants to escape the values, beliefs and assumptions that pervade society only because they are 'familar,' not necessarily true. If she can disconnect herself from this, she can perhaps 'make' a new self and find purity. I wouldn't say Chris wants to escape gender norms (ie. what it is to be a 'man'). Maybe the chapter title, 'manhood,' sheds some light on this topic. This chapter of the film tests his sense of 'manhood.' I mean the killing of the moose allows him to assert his strength and power as a man, and so when the meat is not adequately preserved, you could say that he is emasculated. But I think this is going too far. What thoughts did you have on this?

The insertion of the poem could also be a deliberate decision by the scriptwriter as Lord Byron and Chris are very similar characters imo, rebellious young men who both cherish travel and the wilderness, and died at a very young age. (Byron died at age 36).The complete poem itself (Childe Harold's Pilgrimage) is about a young man disillusioned with his life looks for distraction in foreign lands. (Kinda similar to Chris' experiences lmao). I guess it is through the poem at the beginning, the movie establishes most of its primary context and mood etc. I'm actually not really sure if it is okay to include background info in essays, or how to even do it haha pls educate if you can thx

Very interesting ideas! Background information should always be kept to an absolute minimum (if any at all). The main benefit of background information is that it widens your understanding of the characters, which will then translate in your essays. Someone else might be able to provide more info on this

[stunner05]

hey,  so not sure if i'm writing this in the right place but oh wells!

so my sac is tomorrow and i was trying to go through into the wild scenes once more. I need assistance analysising the part where George Bush says "why act now why not wait...they answer is clear, the world could wait no longer". Its the scene where Chris is at the security border and then he leaves catching a train . I was going along the lines of saying it encourages Chris to persevere and having no identification wont stop him.... lol does anyone have anything to add. please do criticise and tell me if this is stupid :')