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Author Topic: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?  (Read 6502 times)  Share 

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James McKay

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English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« on: February 13, 2019, 06:39:02 pm »
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So basically i suspect that everyone here will know that one of the three english subjects is compulsory to complete your VCE and attain an atar.
Many people like myself will also know that math is not compulsory to complete the same VCE and attain the same atar.
I would like to ask why people think this is and quite frankly how can this be fixed to allow an equal chance and a fair go for those of a more academic inclination like myself.

Personally I believe that English year 12 should be compulsory but that the current form it takes is separating those that are gifted in the Victorian Department of Educations (VDE?) view on how English should be taught and throwing the rest in the metaphorical waste bin. Those who are relatively clear, concise and understandable in all the ways that actually matter in the field in which they plan on working are simply discarded because for a couple of hours they couldn't manage to write a satisfactory response to a completely unrelated topic using a method, terminology and template they will never use or potentially even see again. Now I would like the reader of this to understand that this *will* not be true for all VCE students as the student in question may plan on entering a field such as social media or journalism. But in contrast I for example am quite capable (as this very post accredits too) of expressing my opinions and ideas but will likely not be able to be motivated by the topics on my exam to get very much on paper and therefor am unsure whether i will be able to achieve the English requirements to enter the engineering course I want. If given a topic in which I'm honestly interested in or at least am neutral to i can write something of general substance but after 12 months of being bored to tears by a text I very likely wont manage to get any motivation to write anything about it. Tell me now, do a majority of jobs require a person to analyse a single topic which they aren't interested for 12 months then at the end write in 2-4 hours everything they've learnt or be fired? This is not what VCE English should be testing for. Standard English year 12 should test whether you can get your opinion/information across in general conversation, textual conversation (messaging, email, letters etc.) and in formal text (prac write-up, scientific analysis, database/scientific/other report) as well as whether you can understand others textual conversation, formal texts and general conversation.

On my other point that math is strangely absent from the prerequisites for obtaining an atar I believe that math in some form should be compulsory. though i understand if it is basically repeating foundation yr 10 which from what I've heard focuses on making sure the attending students can tell the difference between a triangle and a square and they can sum up to 10. I would personally prefer it to be required that all students do at least general then further maths. That would be (in my opinion you are free to disagree though i would love to see your arguments) roughly the same difficulty as asking someone of mathematical inclination to do general English and of roughly the same if not more use as almost everyone will be putting money in a savings account but only some people will go on to use any English skill they hadn't already learned by year 10.

Please, do respond. I am a generally amicable person and would love a mutually friendly debate.

(P.S. I somewhat purposefully didn't use the standard persuasive template because as you would have noticed if you have already read the piece is that it isn't really necessary)

Aaron

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 07:01:52 pm »
+7
I'm a teacher myself and agree with parts (note, parts) of your post. As a STEM inclined person and now teacher, I found English to personally be the biggest waste of time as a school student. I actually didn't do too well at it either but I feel that now as a full time employee contributing back to society, I have done well for myself and continue to grow and develop. However it is important to recognise there are students on the other end of this who absolutely despise maths and the technical subjects and love the arts/hums subjects (so basically those with the opposite mindset).

I personally disagree with your point about the whole further/general as compulsory. You have to understand that not everybody thinks the same as you and realistically some are just not inclined mathematically. For some kids, even just turning up to school is a massive task and achievement in itself. I would definitely be in support of a compulsory mathematics program but it needs to be real-world numeracy and applied skills e.g. financial... the stuff that kids transitioning to adults would need. I think it is completely unnecessary to enforce further/general as compulsory. If you ever want a reality check as to just how different people are, become a teacher, work in a public school, and see for yourself.

I am all for maths in programs and I strongly encourage all Year 10s I teach to consider the prospect of keeping maths in their VCE purely because of the problem solving critical skills they develop. It's not even about the ability to work out something like trig, but just procedure and working out things independently and in groups.. so important.

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Tell me now, do a majority of jobs require a person to analyse a single topic which they aren't interested for 12 months then at the end write in 2-4 hours everything they've learnt or be fired?
No... but most things we learn at school won't be applied in the long term. It's not just english. However, what you do engage with in the workplace is the idea of resilience and an ability to do things you don't necessarily like or want to do... but we have to suck it up, agree, and do it. Because if we don't, then that's when we get fired.

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if it is basically repeating foundation yr 10 which from what I've heard focuses on making sure the attending students can tell the difference between a triangle and a square and they can sum up to 10
This comment annoys me quite a lot. I understand you are a mathematically inclined person and have a strength in this area but this is a massive insult to those that do the subject and is quite disrespectful. "From what i've heard".. so you really don't have an idea at all...? I would strongly encourage you to rethink your comments on this in the future.

I feel that your argument/opinion is heavily biased by your interest in the engineering field. Which is totally OK.... who doesn't let bias influence comments/opinions etc. But yeah i'd definitely recommend rethinking some parts of the post because without experiencing certain subjects/situations etc. yourself, you really can't comment on it.

I have a feeling your post however attacks the idea of English as the compulsory one, rather than introducing maths as compulsory... so i'll just end it here and say I agree with that. :)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 07:04:17 pm by Aaron »
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pepper77

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 07:28:18 pm »
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So I originally had a longer reply, but since Aaron said pretty much everything I was going to say (and more) I'll just leave this bit.
 
... only some people will go on to use any English skill they hadn't already learned by year 10.
Now this I disagree with. Writing isn't like riding a bicycle - you don't learn how to do it once and then remember it for the rest of your life. IME you've got to practise, forget and re-learn techniques or your abilities will deteriorate. (Source: all those awkward business emails old men send. Occasionally my dad, who works in finance, will ask for help with grammar or word choice or something and I'll see how old businessmen/clients type. :P Ngl, it's a bit painful.) Will you have to analyse one of Shakespeare's plays to get into an engineering firm? Probably not. But you will have to write a resume, maybe a cover letter too (I think? cmiiw engineers), and you'll have to be eloquent. Before you can show the company how good you are, you have to convince them.  :-* Thanks English! ;D And like Aaron said, there will be tasks you won't enjoy, but you'll have to knuckle down and do them anyway - or lose the job your English skills just got you. I like to think of boring essays as practice for those things.

S200

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 07:51:41 pm »
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But in contrast I for example am quite capable (as this very post accredits too) of expressing my opinions and ideas but will likely not be able to be motivated by the topics on my exam to get very much on paper and therefor am unsure whether i will be able to achieve the English requirements to enter the engineering course I want.
Not really here for the debate, but just saying that if you can express yourself concisely enough and outline your arguments succinctly, as this post shows you can, then the last remaining thing to work on is just identifying arguments and breaking down prompts and you have a solid defense against any topic ;)
Oh yeah; good vocab helps too...

Just my two cents, best of luck for the year ahead...
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(P.S. I somewhat purposefully didn't use the standard persuasive template because as you would have noticed if you have already read the piece is that it isn't really necessary)
What is the standard persuasive template? I've been outta school too long already :D
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Bri MT

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 08:17:32 pm »
+3
I have friends who dropped further because they found it too difficult. A mathsy person might find it relatively easy, but as Aaron said, this doesn't mean everyone will find it easy.

I think it would be great to have an English for Life style subject that focuses on emails, resumes, cover letters, celebratory speeches etc. and a Maths for Life style subject that teaches financial skills, graph interpretation, understanding basic stats etc. so that people who struggle with either area (or want to focus more on day to day applications) have a subject that caters to them.

As things currently stand though, I would not be in favour of making maths compulsory due to the limited use of further in the real world and the current gap between many students' knowledge and the requirements of further. Australia needs more math teachers, and at the moment education in earlier year levels can provide an insufficient foundation for VCE level maths.

No matter what job you have, high level communication skills will be valuable to you. We need our students to develop those skills for the workforce and for further education. Imo, English should be compulsory - but I agree that a life-skills option would be good.

Communication is incredibly important in stem. Your ability to understand (written) tone, voice, persuasive techniques etc can help you work with colleagues. Your ability to manipulate language can help you get funding. Your ability to pull apart a complex text and reinterpret it for people unfamiliar with it can help you communicate with people who lack a STEM background.


Your post shows that you have English skills and it shows that you have room to grow - although some of that is just that we tend to stick to standard conventions less in an informal environment like this :)

Regardless of how this debate goes, good luck for English - I remember how terrifying it can be to not know if you'll make the cut off

James McKay

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 09:37:24 pm »
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Thank you all for the speedy and insightful responses. I apologize for any insult I may have inflicted due to some badly thought out wording as Aaron has pointed out I have not taken foundation math and don't really know how difficult it is.

As a side note and in talking about miss-wordings I am wondering if there is a protocol as to when to post a reply and when to edit the original post with additions but for now I will put them here in a reply until I'm told I can put them in the main post.

I find your points very interesting Aaron and understand completely that some people may be more Hums inclined and that they may find that compulsory math is a contributing factor to them wanting to dropout or simply be less happy with their education but I find this argument quite shallow seeming it quite easily is turned around the other way as a STEM inclined person finds it quite irksome having to attend English on a regular basis too. I personally wont be dropping out due to the compulsory English but it is definitely a contributing factor to my dissatisfaction and I yearn for Thursdays when I have a full day without English and despise Tuesdays when by contrast I have double English. I don't care that those more Hums inclined don't have to do math. I do care that the Education department prioritizes English/Hums and with it communication skills over Math/STEM and with it logic and problem solving skills. Simply put I find it unfair to force one group to do the subject they don't like but allow the other group to not take a subject they equally dislike. For me it isn't about whether they are both compulsory or neither, but prioritizing one or the other will not get you any better adults in the long run and will only increase dissent and discontent in STEM students. Don't get me wrong I understand that making math compulsory will simply get similar responses from the English inclined community but it would be a considerably more fair and just system that judges all students as equals and not as Hums and non-Hums students.

As for the points presented by pepper77 I find them interesting and certainly worthy of mention but I would ask you since (and I agree with you) writing isn't like learning to ride a bicycle,
Writing isn't like riding a bicycle - you don't learn how to do it once and then remember it for the rest of your life.
I agree it must be practiced but, and I must emphasis the but, can you not replace every time you say writing with a substitute from most STEM subjects and it would be equally valid? In fact why not say simply 'School isn't like learning to ride a bicycle, you don't learn how to do something once and then remember it for the rest of your life. You must practice it or else you will forget it'. i believe my point here is clear as stated above, math is as important, not more not less, as English.

S200 thank you for the good luck and thank you for the confidence but sadly the exam is not a debate... it is an analytical essay and a textual comparison both on texts which are less than entertaining or enticing for the majority of students I've met (may use that as my IT SAT topic) so though i can identify my opponents arguments a characters motivations more resemble a slippery eel than an arguments firmness. Also the standard persuasive template that I have been taught at all the schools I've been to (and I've bounced around a bit) is: Introduction, 3 TEEL/TEAL paragraphs on mutually exclusive arguments on the same topic followed by a conclusion which wraps all the arguments into one.

miniturtle, I thank you again for your piece of insight and i agree with every point you give but i think you miss the point slightly (potentially my own fault). my argument isn't that English itself is useless but that what they are teaching is. I agree that communication skills are extremely important in any area especially one where you are highly collaborative in a lab or similar setting but equally the skills math teaches are important in every area right back to journalism when you need to figure out which bus will get you to the interview on time you make a mental GANT chart without any of the formality or if you are to cook anything from a recipe then math will allow you to predict whether you will have enough ingredients or whether you could make a half batch instead. I am not here to argue that math is more important though, only equal. currently as the system stands now and has since my grandfathers high-school (I was on the phone to him talking about this topic only a few minutes ago) it prioritizes communication over problem solving.

I would like to end with a note to all the posters. Which will make a boss happier, solving a problem yourself then telling them there was a problem but its fixed or communicating that there is a problem and asking them how to solve the problem? I know which i would prefer as a boss and i know which quality will give that response more often.

Yertle the Turtle

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 10:06:22 am »
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To be honest, I'm not a fan of English at all, and agree that it is not handled the way it should be. However, I do accept that people are not all good at maths, and thus I think the proper way to fix this would be to continue to make English compulsory, but remove it from being a compulsory Top 4 subject. As the people above have said, English is the language of Australia, and while for most people it isn't necessary to know how to write a Text Response, the general skills of communication are there and are necessary. Personally my problem with English was always that I felt like I could communicate just as well (if not better) before VCE English kicked in, and therefore I didn't feel like there was much point, for me. However there is no point having a rule with a few individual exceptions, and thus I'm not going to suggest that people should be able to get out of English just because they are good at communicating before they start. Overall my general fix for this situation would be to remove English as a compulsory Top 4 subject.

(I speak as someone whose lowest SS (after scaling) was English >:( )
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James McKay

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 10:55:06 am »
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English is the language of Australia
Math is the language of the world...

Yertle the Turtle

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 12:40:39 pm »
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Math is the language of the world...
Not really. You are correct in that it is a language used all over the world, but it is a language that many people do not understand, and it is so multi-leveled that it can't really be described as such. Don't get me wrong, I like Maths and dislike VCE English, but I can see the reasons why it is compulsory. Also you could argue that English is the international language, as it is one of the most spoken in the world, spoken in probably every country in the world.
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Sine

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 12:59:33 pm »
+1
This topic comes up every year on AN  :P

I think English should remain a compulsory subject but also have at least one Math (minimum level: Further Maths) being compulsory alongside it. However, neither should have to be in the top 4. Also, universities should always have those Eng prerequisites 25/30 etc. One downside is that VCAA would be basically saying "English is important but not that important".

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 04:56:09 pm »
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Hmmm.... I wonder what the stats are on students doing 5+ subjects and what demographs removing English from top 4 would advantage the most

Aside from (potentially) that, removing English from being a compulsory top 4 sounds good to me too

Sine

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 05:29:29 pm »
+1
Hmmm.... I wonder what the stats are on students doing 5+ subjects and what demographs removing English from top 4 would advantage the most

Aside from (potentially) that, removing English from being a compulsory top 4 sounds good to me too
I would predict the aggregates required for Atars will increase significantly. So strong math/sci students won't necessarily get that much of a boost. Students whose ATAR would have been previously been carried by Eng (and only take 1 type of english subject) will probably take the biggest hit as they no longer have that advantage of having their strength being the most important subject for the whole state.

DBA-144

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Re: English as a compulsory subject but not Math?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 05:52:30 pm »
+1
IMO it's fantastic that English is a top 4 and compulsory subject. It actually provides students with the skills required to reason better, with better written communication skills, as well as learn to think in a better and perhaps more refined manner. Indeed, English also opens up the area of the humanities (eg. politics, history and also although this isn't humanities but also encourages students to think about what values are actually important and which aren't).

The above is not really something that I think that a lot of students would be able to get some exposure to. More importantly, students like myself can learn about these things without having to enrol in classes specifically for these things, which I am less inclined to do.

Lastly, students can use English to prepare them for uni, where I expect we are required to write much more formally and follow set conventions. Ultimately, many students would not be able to deliver a coherent or effective response to an assignment in uni without having been required to truly pay attention to it, which is quite likely to occur if English is a bottom 2 subject. Many students will simply ignore English under this circumstance, given the fact that a plus 10 study score could end up adding 1 point to their aggregate. Keep in mind that English generally is harder to improve at given the nature of the assessments is mostly subjective.

Just my thoughts.
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