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March 29, 2024, 10:30:25 pm

Author Topic: ATAR/Scaling Questions  (Read 142364 times)  Share 

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conic curve

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2016, 07:45:55 pm »
0
The process, from BOSTES:

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.


Those students would get absolutely wrecked in the HSC when the difficulty becomes standard again. That, and BOSTES would catch them out, I've heard tales of it happening before  ;)

Jamon, mind giving me an example?

Yeah I know but unless you're practicing difficult questions ever now and then, then you'll be able to handle the actual HSC exams with not much hesitation. How would BOSTES catch them out? I know that some really low ranked schools don't make their exams hard mainly because not many students can handle the difficulty of their exams

jamonwindeyer

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2016, 07:53:00 pm »
+1
Jamon, mind giving me an example?

Yeah I know but unless you're practicing difficult questions ever now and then, then you'll be able to handle the actual HSC exams with not much hesitation. How would BOSTES catch them out? I know that some really low ranked schools don't make their exams hard mainly because not many students can handle the difficulty of their exams

Sure, so say Bob and Lauren are tied for first place for Extension 1 Math. The first two dot points in that process still yield a tie (highly unlikely). In that case, they go back to results for Mathematics. If Bob got 98 but Lauren got 97, then Bob takes first place in Extension 1, and Lauren takes second  ;D


James Ruse exams for example? Not the hardest out there. Some schools do set harder papers, and often they are selective, but there is no direct correlation there. And we are talking slight differences in difficulty anyway; it just doesn't make sense for a school to set easier or harder assessments. You just set to the standard. No more, no less  ;D

Oh, well say a few students did MX2 through external tuition, and all got 100%, that would be suss  ;) I'm not 100% sure though, I just heard this back at school  :)

conic curve

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2016, 08:23:20 pm »
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Sure, so say Bob and Lauren are tied for first place for Extension 1 Math. The first two dot points in that process still yield a tie (highly unlikely). In that case, they go back to results for Mathematics. If Bob got 98 but Lauren got 97, then Bob takes first place in Extension 1, and Lauren takes second  ;D


James Ruse exams for example? Not the hardest out there. Some schools do set harder papers, and often they are selective, but there is no direct correlation there. And we are talking slight differences in difficulty anyway; it just doesn't make sense for a school to set easier or harder assessments. You just set to the standard. No more, no less  ;D

Oh, well say a few students did MX2 through external tuition, and all got 100%, that would be suss  ;) I'm not 100% sure though, I just heard this back at school  :)

Oh, I get it now. But if they're both tied in MX1 and 2U then wouldn't it mean that they still would be tied in MX1

Well that is true because Sydney Grammar's papers are the hardest (for maths) and Ruse smashes Sydney Grammar in maths with a band 6 rate of 98% (if I remember correctly) but the thing is (I think I discussed this with RuiAce in the maths threads) is that if the exams are easier then wouldn't that mean that more people will be ranked similarly?

So basically set an exam where people's rankings are completely different from each other's and not have 5 people ranked equal first?

This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about outside tutors (just to prevent further confusion): http://rego.bostes.nsw.edu.au/registered-individual-non-government-schools/registration-requirements/staff/outside-tutors
http://ace.bostes.nsw.edu.au/ace-4013

Oh yeah good point, but just set like one easy exam and then one easy exam and then one hard, etc so then nobody notices anything suss lol. For harder maths topics, make the exams easy and for the easier topics, make the exams harder  ;)

jamonwindeyer

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2016, 08:57:52 pm »
+1
Oh, I get it now. But if they're both tied in MX1 and 2U then wouldn't it mean that they still would be tied in MX1

Well that is true because Sydney Grammar's papers are the hardest (for maths) and Ruse smashes Sydney Grammar in maths with a band 6 rate of 98% (if I remember correctly) but the thing is (I think I discussed this with RuiAce in the maths threads) is that if the exams are easier then wouldn't that mean that more people will be ranked similarly?

So basically set an exam where people's rankings are completely different from each other's and not have 5 people ranked equal first?

This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about outside tutors (just to prevent further confusion): http://rego.bostes.nsw.edu.au/registered-individual-non-government-schools/registration-requirements/staff/outside-tutors
http://ace.bostes.nsw.edu.au/ace-4013

Oh yeah good point, but just set like one easy exam and then one easy exam and then one hard, etc so then nobody notices anything suss lol. For harder maths topics, make the exams easy and for the easier topics, make the exams harder  ;)

I think that would be true, they would then both receive 1st place  ;D it actually happens reasonably often  :D

If the exams are easier, yes, rankings would probably be closer together. But Year 12 exams will differentiate if they are at the standard difficulty. Even a James Ruse cohort can't all get 98% in a 2U exam, there is always some level of spread. For selective schools, that spread is narrower and closer to the Band 6 end of the spectrum, but their exams are almost no different  :) the fact is, Sydney Grammar's assessments aren't all that harder than anyone else's. Everyone gets the same.

I think you are putting too much thought into how tutors could cheat the system... Really, they are only hurting themselves and their students if they choose to do that  :P


conic curve

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2016, 09:32:52 pm »
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I think that would be true, they would then both receive 1st place  ;D it actually happens reasonably often  :D

If the exams are easier, yes, rankings would probably be closer together. But Year 12 exams will differentiate if they are at the standard difficulty. Even a James Ruse cohort can't all get 98% in a 2U exam, there is always some level of spread. For selective schools, that spread is narrower and closer to the Band 6 end of the spectrum, but their exams are almost no different  :) the fact is, Sydney Grammar's assessments aren't all that harder than anyone else's. Everyone gets the same.

I think you are putting too much thought into how tutors could cheat the system... Really, they are only hurting themselves and their students if they choose to do that  :P

I thought they were, mainly because the last question is usually a difficult question. So basically every school in NSW has exams of similar difficulty to the actual HSC exams? (in order to make the rankings more even)

Nah it just sounds so interesting though  :D because basically it's like one to one education going to your HSC but how are they hurting themselves and their students? Are they not giving enough exposure to the more difficult questions when doing so or what? ???

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2016, 09:36:49 pm »
+1
I thought they were, mainly because the last question is usually a difficult question. So basically every school in NSW has exams of similar difficulty to the actual HSC exams? (in order to make the rankings more even)

Nah it just sounds so interesting though  :D because basically it's like one to one education going to your HSC but how are they hurting themselves and their students? Are they not giving enough exposure to the more difficult questions when doing so or what? ???

I'll agree with you there, but on the whole, not too much harder. Everyone gets the same range of difficulty, because it's the HSC, and it needs to be even  :)

They are hurting themselves because they aren't actually teaching and rewarding based on merits. The students don't get exposed to the course in its intended fashion. And it's cheating, which is really the only necessary reason!  ;)

conic curve

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2016, 09:42:19 pm »
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I'll agree with you there, but on the whole, not too much harder. Everyone gets the same range of difficulty, because it's the HSC, and it needs to be even  :)

They are hurting themselves because they aren't actually teaching and rewarding based on merits. The students don't get exposed to the course in its intended fashion. And it's cheating, which is really the only necessary reason!  ;)

Hmmmmm, okay, but they can still teach and reward based on merits but in an unfair manner (like you said Jamon). Well the kids doing the course 1-1 externally are disadvantaged in that sense, there is no safety net to back them up whenever they do crap but the kids in a class are because of the scaling.

If you are first (in a class) do you get scaled up or do you not get affected by scaling at all (i.e. you don't get scaled down)?

If you are within the band 6 range, does scaling affect you in any way? (basically a repeat of the question above)

jamonwindeyer

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2016, 09:49:00 pm »
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Hmmmmm, okay, but they can still teach and reward based on merits but in an unfair manner (like you said Jamon). Well the kids doing the course 1-1 externally are disadvantaged in that sense, there is no safety net to back them up whenever they do crap but the kids in a class are because of the scaling.

If you are first (in a class) do you get scaled up or do you not get affected by scaling at all (i.e. you don't get scaled down)?

If you are within the band 6 range, does scaling affect you in any way? (basically a repeat of the question above)

Everyone should play by the rules  8)

First place's HSC mark get's averaged with the highest HSC mark in that cohort. EG - I'm 1st, my HSC Exam Mark ends up as 89, but someone at my school gets 95. My Moderated School Assessment Mark becomes 95, so my final HSC Mark is the average of 89 and 95, which is 92  ;D

Scaling affects all students irrespective of what Band they are in, but the effects are complex and may differ depending on whereabouts your mark sits in the cohort and compared to the rest of the HSC students, I give all the detail you'll need here  :D

conic curve

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2016, 08:24:29 pm »
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What does it mean by moderation?

They say in english standard it's harder to get a band 6 because there are too many people doing the course and in advanced it's easier. Is this because of moderation?

RuiAce

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2016, 08:27:48 pm »
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What does it mean by moderation?

They say in english standard it's harder to get a band 6 because there are too many people doing the course and in advanced it's easier. Is this because of moderation?
In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks the marks of the cohort are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your their final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.

No. It is actually just as easy to get a band 6 in standard as it is to get in advanced.
The problems lie in a) sometimes standard are treated too lightly by their teachers, and b) from comparing marks, generally the students who do advanced at the stronger students. Anyone who can get a band 6 in advanced can easily get it in standard.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 06:17:39 pm by RuiAce »

conic curve

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2016, 08:35:52 pm »
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In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.

No. It is actually just as easy to get a band 6 in standard as it is to get in advanced.
The problems lie in a) sometimes standard are treated too lightly by their teachers, and b) from comparing marks, generally the students who do advanced at the stronger students. Anyone who can get a band 6 in advanced can easily get it in standard.

Lol what's the point of standard then because english advaced is higher scaling than standard

RuiAce

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2016, 08:39:57 pm »
+2
Lol what's the point of standard then because english advaced is higher scaling than standard
Whoever said standard was the same difficulty as advanced?

Like I said, it's because the more capable students are generally the ones doing advanced.

Whilst ATAR scaling is intended to address the fact some subjects are harder than that, the basis for scaling is not just absolute difficulty. Difficulty is not a measurable quantity. You cannot simply say that oh maths extension 1 is harder than visual arts.

ATAR scaling is entirely based off the candidature of those who do the course. English gets streamed, and then using English as a basis to determine what should get scaled up more or down more. Typically the people who do MX2 also get the better English Adv marks, which is why MX2 is better scaled.

It just so happens, that if more capable people are doing your course, you get pulled up to a certain extent WITH them.

Also, keep in mind that alignment and (actual) scaling are two distinct things.

I'm not going to answer all of these questions. The answers can all be found through research.

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2016, 08:49:41 pm »
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In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.

To be more unambiguous, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your cohort's total exam marks.

For example if you score 70 internal & 90 exam, but your cohort's total exam mark is about the same as their total internal mark, that indicates the school did not set harder internal assessments therefore your 70 internal won't get moderated up (despite your 90 exam).

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2016, 08:53:17 pm »
+3
To be more unambiguous, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your cohort's total exam marks.

For example if you score 70 internal & 90 exam, but your cohort's total exam mark is about the same as their total internal mark, that indicates the school did not set harder internal assessments therefore your 70 internal won't get moderated up (despite your 90 exam).
Do you need me to write a full essay on how moderation works? I was simply not bothered because linked in the original post is an in depth analysis of everything about moderation.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 08:55:15 pm by RuiAce »

A1P

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Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2016, 09:07:15 pm »
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Do you need me to write a full essay on how moderation works? I was simply not bothered because linked in the original post is an in depth analysis of everything about moderation.

Here I quote for you directly from that link
"The Board moderates your School Assessment Mark for a subject using the Examination Marks obtained by the students who sat the exam for that subject at your school. That is, your HSC Physics mark is moderated based on the results of Physics students at your school."

Doesn't that look like the whole cohort's exam marks rather than your own exam mark?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 09:12:56 pm by A1P »