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March 29, 2024, 11:51:40 pm

Author Topic: Do the rich have an advantage?  (Read 2137 times)  Share 

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Tatlidil

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Do the rich have an advantage?
« on: January 14, 2019, 04:41:59 pm »
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Hey, is it true that rich students have an advantage? Don't get me wrong, i'm not having a go at the rich but...
They can afford all the extra resources such as checkpoints, the ATARNotes exam books, they can go to well known high achieving schools and have the best tutors! Let's argue in the case that they ARE talented in school and their subjects.
What do you guys think?

Jimmmy

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2019, 04:47:20 pm »
+1
Do they have an advantage in VCE with the current system? I'd think they do, but try not to think about that while you're in Year 12.  :P

Will they have an advantage in University? From everything I've seen and heard, I don't think so.
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Lear

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2019, 04:52:37 pm »
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This thread may be of interest to you.
https://atarnotes.com/forum/index.php?topic=182972
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Aaron

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2019, 05:03:21 pm »
+7
refer to Lear's post.

Anybody with common sense can see those socioeconomically better off have the opportunity to achieve higher outcomes than those with a lower SES. I italicise opportunity because it is how the student utilises the resources they have that makes the difference.

Consider things like tutors, textbook/subject-specific resources (as you have mentioned), significant teaching resources available to teachers (often seen in independent schools). As a teacher we can only work with what we have - and esp. in the government system it can be quite tough. Unfortunately there is a significant divide and only a small minority of those from a lower SES don't fall through the cracks and still achieve the same as if they'd have had access to such materials. It's not going away anytime soon.

Tutors = cost (in most cases)
Textbooks/resources = cost
Significant teaching resources = government schools rely on government funding to operate pretty much everything, to keep in line with the whole 'accessibility' mantra. Independent schools on the other hand benefit from both government funding along with parent investment through tuition fees, donations etc.

I've worked in schools where even student access to internet at home is a challenge - we take a lot of these things for granted but I'd like everybody who reads this to just realise and understand that there are those out there who don't have same luxuries and obviously this impacts an ability to be competitive when they reach VCE.

Put simply (if we use this scenario):
* Student A's parents can afford to pay a tutor for x or y subject
* Student B can't access a tutor because for their family, its a decision of whether they eat for the week, live under a roof (e.g. pay a mortgage/pay rent), have access to electricity/bare essentials.

I don't blame those financially better off - not in the slightest. But I'm outlining the realities faced (and if you don't believe this happens, I'd very strongly encourage you to go to a significantly disadvantaged school for a week and then come back to me and still say you don't believe it) by many students. There is a significant gap and again, it's not going away anytime soon.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:17:51 pm by Aaron »
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Tatlidil

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2019, 05:13:35 pm »
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Do they have an advantage in VCE with the current system? I'd think they do, but try not to think about that while you're in Year 12.  :P

Will they have an advantage in University? From everything I've seen and heard, I don't think so.
Fair enough
refer to Lear's post.

Anybody with common sense can see those socioeconomically better off have the opportunity to achieve higher outcomes than those with a lower SES. I italicise opportunity because it is how the student utilises the resources they have that makes the difference.

Consider things like tutors, textbook/subject-specific resources (as you have mentioned), significant teaching resources available to teachers (often seen in independent schools). As a teacher we can only work with what we have - and esp. in the government system it can be quite tough. Unfortunately there is a significant divide and only a small minority of those from a lower SES don't fall through the cracks and still achieve the same as if they'd have had access to such materials. It's not going away anytime soon.

Tutors = cost (in most cases)
Textbooks/resources = cost
Significant teaching resources = government schools rely on government funding to operate pretty much everything, to keep in line with the whole 'accessibility' mantra. Independent schools on the other hand benefit from both government funding along with parent investment through tuition fees, donations etc.

Yep that makes sense, I've read the discussion lear posted and I now understand.
Can you just tell me, if there are two students who are the same in "smartness" (which I think wouldn't happen, nevertheless), if one of them was able to afford a tutor and get resources while the other was left to study on his own who would get a higher mark?

Chelsea f.c.

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 05:20:45 pm »
+2
The one who figures it out for themself will learn more ;)
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Aaron

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 05:20:59 pm »
+3
Quote from: Tatlidil
Can you just tell me, if there are two students who are the same in "smartness" (which I think wouldn't happen, nevertheless), if one of them was able to afford a tutor and get resources while the other was left to study on his own who would get a higher mark?
You would think the student who gets resources.

My reasoning: One-on-one assistance makes all the difference. A teacher in a school classroom isn't a tutor and has to try and address the very unique needs of around 20 students. 20 is my guestimate of the average VCE subject class in a school. Students without a tutor may have limited opportunities to address misconceptions, flaws in understanding etc. whereas those completing sessions 1-on-1 with a tutor have that opportunity to address them in detail. It by no means is absolutely critical to have a tutor and if you attend an independent school or school in general that has the capacity to fund smaller class sizes/employ more teachers so that they can get more 1-on-1 help, then it would make up for that somewhat...

Whatever way you look at it - those that aren't financially better off have everything already going against them in this rigged system. For the small minority who manage to beat the odds, that makes their achievement so much more.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:26:43 pm by Aaron »
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Quinapalus

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Tatlidil

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 05:35:48 pm »
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The one who figures it out for themself will learn more ;)
I've been figuring out everything myself my whole life, and this is the first time im seeking answers from others. So hearing that is a little bit offensive. Sorry if I miss understood you though
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:37:44 pm by Tatlidil »

Chelsea f.c.

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 05:40:42 pm »
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My point was maths is an active exercise - you learn by doing! As I was told in my second year prob class you don't know what you know (I.e. solving an exercise based on what you've learnt) until you put your ideas on paper - a tutor can guide when your clueless but can't do your exam for you.

Btw if your a capable student you may be better off without a tutor as you think for yourself rather than ask for assistance where assistance may mask your lack of knowledge - learning is supposed to be a struggle - where i can't remember much from my maths classes but have gained an ability to solve problems and try to understand stuff if put in front off me.

When you get into the workplace there is not solutions manual and you have to come up with the best answer and justify it and you will be assessed on whether your right based on outcomes - if you want to pursue finance your employer will probably believe everything you've learnt at uni is a waste but value your problem solving skills and use your scores and course as a screening tool.

my point is tutors are a short run thing.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:52:58 pm by Chelsea f.c. »
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Tatlidil

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 05:48:22 pm »
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a tutor can guide when your clueless but can't do your exam for you.-
Ok if you said that before...Anyway I just wanted to say that I don't even have a guide, nobody to help when im clueless.
Bu the post from Quinapalus really inspired me and gave the exact answer I was looking for.
Sorry if i was starting a problem, very sorry

Jimmmy

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 05:50:04 pm »
+1
My point was maths is an active exercise - you learn by doing! As I was told in my second year prob class you don't know what you know (I.e. solving an exercise based on what you've learnt) until you put your ideas on paper - a tutor can guide when your clueless but can't do your exam for you.
A paid tutor can very much put the drive into a student, especially if it's funded by the parents or other family members and not necessarily desired by the student themselves, so whilst the tutor cannot complete the exams for their student, they can drill the concepts so hard into their students over hundreds, if not thousands of hours so that the student can do exceptionally well.

University is a completely different story though, and I wonder if this links up with the many stories I hear about privately educated high school students chopping and changing university courses, or not being particular interested or successful in what they do choose...
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Chelsea f.c.

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 05:59:03 pm »
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my private school (maybe ranked around 5 last year) described it as a peleton where the families, teachers and school create an environment that drives students forward. But at uni you need to be self-motivated i.e. if you want to do well you need to make time to put in the work yourself - where tutors don't give this appreciation of learning - and struggle is the basis of learning.

VCE won't determine your career and there's many ways to get into your dream course but if you don't learn to appreciate learning i.e. struggle your only cheating yourself!

p.s. there are some very good mathematicians looking at the forums that you can post what you've attempted on or if you look at economics forums you will see i answered a lot of questions last year where few tutors in economics would've had the oppurtunity to pursue honours at unimelb - so if you need help on questions or are clueless you can post here  :) plus at some universities there are free lectures run by students for the disadvantaged (monash pharmacy for chem) so maybe look into them!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 06:08:13 pm by Chelsea f.c. »
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Lear

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 06:06:35 pm »
+6
My view is this -
A smart kid that is not as rich may have a lot more hurdles and difficulties in achieving the same as a smart kid that is rich. However, this is not to say that a not-so-well-off smart kid can’t achieve exceptionally well. There are a plethora of examples right here on AN. But it’s absolutely ignorant for anyone to claim being rich is some sort of superficial advantage. It is a very real and tangible advantage.

If you are a person who is middle class or upper class, it can be very hard to fathom what it is like to not be able to access expensive tutors and top tier schools. But you can do your best to recognise the issue and do what little or big you can to help mitigate it.
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Quinapalus

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Re: Do the rich have an advantage?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 07:01:58 pm »
+1
A paid tutor can very much put the drive into a student, especially if it's funded by the parents or other family members and not necessarily desired by the student themselves, so whilst the tutor cannot complete the exams for their student, they can drill the concepts so hard into their students over hundreds, if not thousands of hours so that the student can do exceptionally well.

University is a completely different story though, and I wonder if this links up with the many stories I hear about privately educated high school students chopping and changing university courses, or not being particular interested or successful in what they do choose...

I found the opposite to be true sometimes  ;D

Sometimes tutored students fall into the following traps

a) They become too confident in the tutoring and aren't aware of their mistakes/shortcomings
b) They neglect to do certain work that they must do themselves
c) They fail to generate their own ideas from their own personal experiences (especially English/Lit)

At the same time, if you work hard alongside tutoring, you can achieve the best results.
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2017: Methods [45~48.79] Music Performance [50] (Premier's) (Violin)

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2019, 2020: Biomed @ Melbourne

Offering tutoring, selling notes/essays, or even general VCE advice, PM Quinapalus via ATAR notes if interested or email [email protected]