Introducing: Monash MD 2017 entry

[A1P]

Dunno how legit this is but there's talk of deakin going bmbs -> MD as well

Deakin med is grad entry so already more aligned with MD.
Monash would cause quite a stir if they can get approval for the school-leaver entry MBBS to become MD (while staying as 5yr).

[Studentxzc]

I think you'll find that when people tend to work overseas, which is most commonly during their Fellowship (ie. after passing all their registrar exams and training requirements), the medical school they went to doesn't really mean anything. I guess if for some reason you wanted to leave Australia earlier than that, something which would be irrelevant to 99% of domestic graduates, then it might matter

Rankings aren't a reflection on the quality of primary medical degrees, but are rather determined by research the Faculty pumps out. It's not surprising the oldest medical schools have the higher rankings... they've been around for longer, it would be very odd to expect anything else. My understanding, is that again for Fellowships, it's largely a moot point. What you've done, which hospitals you have worked in, and who you've met along the way play the big roles in getting these overseas Fellowship stints. Granted, I don't have any family in the area and am just drawing conclusions on a few convos with consultants I've had along my own journey.

UoM and USyd do try and emphasise these things. And I really think they're over-emphasised to the point of exaggeration. Ultimately, and like any uni, they want the best students; and if the lure of "but hey guys it helps for some select overseas countries who have MDs implemented in them" convinces a small percentage, then good job on marketing for them!

So I guess it's fair to say, that for purposes of the vast majority of domestic students, it has absolutely no implications whatsoever!

I agree that the University rankings are based on research (which was what I found out last year and was quite surprised haha). But it does add to the prestige of the University, the name, and the recognition overseas (More people would recognise e.g Sydney University compared to UNSW- because of a longer reputation, and also- the capital of the state)

Ultimately I do agree with you that in Australia (at this stage), the difference between a MBBS degree and a MD degree does not matter. However, with the growing number of medical students and medical schools- I believe this might be a contributing factor, in the future, when selecting doctors.

Yep! I was talking about Fellowship programs! Especially if it is an especially popular overseas program with multiple applicants from various countries. The type of qualification then would matter (along with your leadership community involvement, research etc etc) as they would have to pick your application among thousands that applied. It would also matter as compared to someone who graduated with a Masters degree (MD), MBBS is still a bachelor degree.
Internationally, it is recognised as a different level of qualification. You could try look it up but based on an enquiry I shot off to a few universities last year, there was a difference!

I think all Unis try to pull out their guns when luring the best students. Monash and UNSW do it too with their hey 5 -6 year programs, undergraduate, you get two degrees too! which is quite a good deal considering you won't get the same stress and uncertainty for GAMSAT!

[pi]

However, with the growing number of medical students and medical schools- I believe this might be a contributing factor, in the future, when selecting doctors.

Out of interest, care to share why?

Yep! I was talking about Fellowship programs! Especially if it is an especially popular overseas program with multiple applicants from various countries. The type of qualification then would matter (along with your leadership community involvement, research etc etc) as they would have to pick your application among thousands that applied.

In the highly unlikely event that two candidates are the same on everything other than medical school, then sure it might matter. But doubt that could ever be possible Just like UNSW didn't ask you for you NAPLAN results, Fellowships aren't awarded on the basis of medical school (I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, even though Fellowships are a loooooong way away for either of us yet!)

I think all Unis try to pull out their guns when luring the best students. Monash and UNSW do it too with their hey 5 -6 year programs, undergraduate, you get two degrees too! which is quite a good deal considering you won't get the same stress and uncertainty for GAMSAT!

Agreed for sure, unis are after all, businesses. I'd hate to be the faculty folks in UoM and USyd who are now seeing Monash and UNSW 'get to their level' and also now get the crème de la crème of school leavers, oh how the tables have turned hahaha

[Studentxzc]

Out of interest, care to share why?

In the highly unlikely event that two candidates are the same on everything other than medical school, then sure it might matter. But doubt that could ever be possible Just like UNSW didn't ask you for you NAPLAN results, Fellowships aren't awarded on the basis of medical school (I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, even though Fellowships are a loooooong way away for either of us yet!)

Agreed for sure, unis are after all, businesses. I'd hate to be the folks in UoM and USyd who are now seeing Monash and UNSW 'get to their level' and also now get the crème de la crème of school leavers, oh how the tables have turned hahaha

Because there are going to be too many of us haha. We are already facing an Internship crisis (except for rural areas), we have new medical schools coming up (Curtin for example, Macquarie possibly in the future), international students that graduate locally do not have an internship position and each year there is a larger intake of medical students! We need doctors, yes- But already doctors are feeling the pinch with getting into specialities. There isn't enough places for everyone. Sooner or later, unless the government does something, it would hit the intern level! Too many university graduates but too few positions ): Medicine is probably going to end up like other fields (but at a much slower rate).

NAPLAN is not a qualified result (: You can't use your NAPLAN result to apply internationally. In fact, most countries don't use NAPLAN testing. Meanwhile your HSC/VCE certification is a qualification. The same as your university degree as a qualification that is internationally recognised (compared to the NAPLAN). Fellowships are not fully awarded on the basis of medical schools, but I believe they do have a contributing factor! We probably would not get to the point where we have two equally matched doctors for a Fellowship as there are too many applicants haha, especially with the coming years @_@ Ok haha lets disagree 

sorry for being so passive aggressive! 

[pi]

(edit: this is all rather off-topic, but I don't really care because it's interesting LOL)

The internship 'crisis' is an interesting issue, mainly because I don't see it as the real crisis right now.

Personally, whilst I do feel sorry for those missing out, I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that they did, as cruel as it sounds. Medicine is now following the way of basically every other over-saturated degree. As someone who does realistically expect to one day be a patient of a hospital in the (hopefully very distant) future, it bothers me a great deal that the old joking notion of "what do we call the person who comes last in med school? a doctor" is actually not a joke at all, but is instead the truth. I'd feel reassured as a patient knowing that my doctor was got grades good enough to be one, and wasn't there just because of some guarantee. Getting into med school shouldn't be the hard part, that should be the easiest part; with guaranteed jobs that's just not the case and I don't think that's right.

To draw comparisons, the person who scrapes through with P's (passes, 50-59%) in law school won't become a lawyer (and let's ignore all those 0.00000001%'ers who pull off the miraculous and inspirational to get somewhere from nowhere), similarly the person who scrapes through with P's in a science degree won't get a job in a lab. So in this regard, I think it's perfectly ok for us to weed out the weaker graduates early. However, I'm unaware of any Australian studies correlating med school marks with performance as a practitioner, but that would certainly alter my stance on this issue.

Having said that, by all reports, Australia does need more doctors. So it's an interesting conundrum, and I think the responsibility lies with both the Govt and with the Colleges to try and solve the issues. There's no use having interns who can't get training spots, so I don't see raising intern spots as a big priority. I see the priority as fixing the more serious bottleneck later in training: during registrar years, advanced training, fellowship. Instead of fixing from the bottom-up, I'd prefer a solution starting at the top. For example, created more AT spots in rural areas, get the specialists, albeit specialists in training, to those areas of need. Give more people a chance to climb the ladder, not give more people a chance to be stranded at the bottom of the ladder.

(not touching the Fellowship thing again, but I don't think either of us are super well informed on it hahahaha and NAPLAN was an analogy, if it was a perfect fit it wouldn't be an analogy )

sorry for being so passive aggressive! 

Not at all, always a pleasure to hear from our colleagues who are on the wrong side of the Victorian-NSW border (/cheek)

[EspoirTron]

Just remaining on pi's tangent, and keeping the flow going. I can say I have no preference towards the process and whether universities want to limit entry to their own graduates (basically it is what it is, accept it and if you really want it you'll find a way in).
Unfortunately, the issue is that not all student apply will get in. That doesn't mean however you shouldn't try your hardest (a positive attitude and staying focussed is imperative).

Undoubtedly the Monash "50 spots" program has attracted many more high achievers, with plenty students in my course boasting a 97+ ATAR and some with 99+. Granted this, a precautionary piece of advice I would give to any Year 12 considering this pathway is to assess your options, and assess them very carefully. You will always here the classic "Which is better for Med, Biomed or Science debate?" - in reality the response is not black and white. I've remained quite silent on the forums in regard to my opinion about this topic, but a consistent theme on the forum is the former question.

Now I'm going to give a real anecdotal example of the culture among students in Biomedicine. If you want 95% of your conversations with your peers to be about the Medical school application process, it's perfect for you! Without too much into it, as I'm sure you can understand, many Biomed students are students who missed out on the undergrad pathway, and granted this, some are very salty, with comments being flown around "oh I got 99.XX and didn't get in" - yes ATAR is still a topic even until the end of 2nd year. The harsh reality is there is no off switch and it becomes this incessant culture of "I must get into medicine and make sure that I beat everyone".

Take my advice with a grain of salt, but if you're up to experience that on a day-to-day basis then go for it. I've heard many students drop very hurtful comments about Science students and how they are apparently "not at intelligent" as Biomed students. This is something I was shocked to hear at first, but then you get used to hearing it and it doesn't become any less disgusting every time you hear those comments made.

To any Year 12 considering this pathway, I have no issues with this vertical pathway that has been established. The curriculum is awesome and I've enjoyed almost every Biomed unit, and they're always trying to incorporate clinical stuff. I have no issues whatsoever with Monash now limiting entry to their graduates, that was their decision and there are a myriad of factors involved in that decision making process. 

The crux of this post is aimed at Year 12's who keep asking the question "Is biomed better for med?". Ultimately no one but yourself can answer that question, if you want flexibility in your degree then Science is the way to go. Biomed is a valid option in terms of its academic standing, and the manner in which the course is taught; however, the culture is slightly uncomforting in my own experience. Just to confirm however, not all students are like this.

[tabasco]

I have no issues whatsoever with Monash now limiting entry to their graduates, that was their decision and there are a myriad of factors involved in that decision making process. 

Didn't you also mention that you'd be shattered if Melbourne made their MD direct entry only in the unimelb thread? Would you have any issues if/when Melbourne does the same as Monash?

[A1P]

Didn't you also mention that you'd be shattered if Melbourne made their MD direct entry only in the unimelb thread? Would you have any issues if/when Melbourne does the same as Monash?

Monash can limit to their grads since it's entry to an undergrad course, just an extension of the 1st-year or 2nd-year "internal transfer" practice. Afaik no uni has been irrational enough to do this with any postgrad courses and unlikely any will be.

[dragenyious]

Hey, so now that there isn't an undergraduate program for Monash and other schools like UNSW have taken it away too, what courses still require the UMAT? Is there still a point in taking it? (For Class of 2017 students).

[pi]

I was under the impression Monash would still be using the UMAT, but if you've heard differently then that is interesting. Your best bet to answer your question is to look at the ACER UMAT2017 Information Booklet when it is released later this year (and again when you are in year 12). No rush though

[analyticalAmoeba]

this might help
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/medicine/admissions/documents/2017-domestic-brochure.pdf

[heart]

Hey, so now that there isn't an undergraduate program for Monash and other schools like UNSW have taken it away too, what courses still require the UMAT? Is there still a point in taking it? (For Class of 2017 students).

There is still an undergrad program at Monash its just called Bachelor of Medical Science and Doctor of Medicine (MD) now and still takes 5 years. The grad version is also called Bachelor of Medical Science and Doctor of Medicine (MD) and takes 4 years.

[dragenyious]

Ah, I was under the impression the undergrad monash med pathway would be taken away as a whole and switched to the program such as the one at melbourne uni, thanks for clearing that up

[pi]

Monash is currently getting "better" school leavers (ie. school leavers with higher ATARs) than they did when Monash and UoM both had the MBBS, they're not going to give that up so easily

[JaidynM]

Does anyone have any new info on whether the Class of 2020 will get the MD/BMedSci? A few of us were discussing it the other day and some people were saying that because the changes to the course take place while we're still in the pre-clin years we won't get MBBS. The new course admissions page (found http://med.monash.edu.au/medicine/admissions/direct-entry/prospective-students.html) says:

^The Bachelor of Medical Science and Doctor of Medicine (MD) will replace the Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (Honours) MBBS for applicants commencing in 2017. Check the important dates page for information about dates for 2017 entry.

...which makes me think that its just the class of 2021 that it applies to, but I honestly have no idea. I know it doesn't make much difference what we graduate with but I can't help but be a little curious!