School zones?

[brendan]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

but how much of a choice is that?
its alike to saying to a vegetarian "here's some meat, if u starve it's ur own damn fault"...

no one is forcing him to be a vegetarian that is his own choice. in any case selection by academic ability is a lot fairer than selection by postcode. what choice does a child have in where he lives? none.

[sheepz]

sorry about previous post... i accidentally put my comment in the quote box >.< i said that most asian parents would force their children to study hard...

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

but how much of a choice is that?
its alike to saying to a vegetarian "here's some meat, if u starve it's ur own damn fault"...

no one is forcing him to be a vegetarian that is his own choice. in any case selection by academic ability is a lot fairer than selection by postcode. what choice does a child have in where he lives? none.

the child doesn't have any choice on how smart s/he is either

[Mao]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

but how much of a choice is that?
its alike to saying to a vegetarian "here's some meat, if u starve it's ur own damn fault"...

no one is forcing him to be a vegetarian that is his own choice. in any case selection by academic ability is a lot fairer than selection by postcode. what choice does a child have in where he lives? none.

however, when you consider that in context with the ultimatum I adopted by analogy, there isnt much of a choice to be vegetarian either

my point:
given select entry, the kid is practically given the ultimatum to do well or be useless (education can be pretty life determining)
then that kid doesnt really have much of a choice to choose between childhood pleasures and future, given the above ultimatum...

I agree that school by zones isnt a fair system, but school by academic merit doesnt present us with any less problems...

[brendan]

the child doesn't have any choice on how smart s/he is either

Wrong: http://economics.uwo.ca/faculty/Stinebrickner/recentpapers/thecausaleffect.pdf

Secondly, this is how university places are allocated anyway. Of course a child can change their academic standing, they have to work for it though: see http://economics.uwo.ca/faculty/Stinebrickner/recentpapers/thecausaleffect.pdf

To be consistent in your position you should abolish VCE and the ENTER too and allocate all university places according to where you live.

given select entry, the kid is practically given the ultimatum to do well or be useless (education can be pretty life determining)
then that kid doesnt really have much of a choice to choose between childhood pleasures and future, given the above ultimatum...

I agree that school by zones isnt a fair system, but school by academic merit doesnt present us with any less problems...

It already is select-entry. Didn't you read the study by ANU? The only issue is to select on what basis? (n where you live or your academic merit? MHS does academic merit and so does MacRob. It is much fairer than selection according to postcode.

Secondly, no one forcing you to be a vegetarian. if you are a vegetarian then that's your own business.

[melanie.dee]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

without wanting to get into this argument cos i cbf, i don't think that's far fretched at all. its pretty realistic actually. just look at many asian countries that have a streaming type system. the pressure is enormous. kids dont always get to exercise choice at that age; often their parents like to make those decisions for them. so yes, it happens, it's absolutely not far fetched and its not a positive thing either.

[brendan]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

without wanting to get into this argument cos i cbf, i don't think that's far fretched at all. its pretty realistic actually. just look at many asian countries that have a streaming type system. the pressure is enormous. kids dont always get to exercise choice at that age; often their parents like to make those decisions for them. so yes, it happens, it's absolutely not far fetched and its not a positive thing either.

well then thats not the fault of the selection system, that's the parents fault.

[sheepz]

the child doesn't have any choice on how smart s/he is either

Secondly, this is how university places are allocated anyway. Of course a child can change their academic standing, they have to work for it though: see http://ssrn.com/abstract=1009791

To be consistent in your position you should abolish VCE and the ENTER too and allocate all university places according to where you live.

If a child has to work to be smarter, that means they have to study hard at a young age and there goes childhood. At secondary school age, children are more informed and can think better for themselves and will therefore be able to make better choices (ie study more/ go to tuition) that suit them. People who aren't smart enough to go into uni can at least go to TAFE if they want to continue studying. Secondary school (the first few years) is compulsory though.

[sheepz]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

without wanting to get into this argument cos i cbf, i don't think that's far fretched at all. its pretty realistic actually. just look at many asian countries that have a streaming type system. the pressure is enormous. kids dont always get to exercise choice at that age; often their parents like to make those decisions for them. so yes, it happens, it's absolutely not far fetched and its not a positive thing either.

well then thats not the fault of the selection system, that's the parents fault.

this type of selection system is bound to make these parents do that and it is the children who suffer though. and they are the ones who were suppose to benefit.

[melanie.dee]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

without wanting to get into this argument cos i cbf, i don't think that's far fretched at all. its pretty realistic actually. just look at many asian countries that have a streaming type system. the pressure is enormous. kids dont always get to exercise choice at that age; often their parents like to make those decisions for them. so yes, it happens, it's absolutely not far fetched and its not a positive thing either.

well then thats not the fault of the selection system, that's the parents fault.

ahah are u kidding, for all the arguments that other people put forward that you claim as being cop outs, this takes the cake!

are you saying that you can put any situation in place that is obviously going to change the behaviour, attitudes of people whatever, but that that system doesnt have to be accountable for it cos its those peoples fault for changing their behaviour?

come on thats effing ridiculous. i dont even no how to argue back to that.

streaming/select entry system -> parental pressure -> loss of childhood or whatever you want to call it, unnecessary stress on kids, creation of a society undesirably over centered on academic results at a young age

[cara.mel]

A point I don't think it has been mentioned yet (unless it's in one of brendans links, because I don't understand those):

There needs to be a school available for every kid. If you select only by academic streaming, then you're going to have kids left behind that end up having to go to schools 20km etc away because it's the only one left. As much as a lot of government schools are overflowing atm, you still need a place for everyone.

And also, I personally would hate being in a select entry school

[brendan]

if students were selected according to academic abilities, there would be much more pressure on the kids to do well so they can get into a particular school as opposed to the 'dumbed-down' school. that will probably raise the state's education level but may mean the kids have to sacrifice their childhood studying and their social lives (which is what happens in asia).

i'd say thats pretty far-fetched. no one is forcing any kid to sacrifice his childhood. if he does that is his own choice.

without wanting to get into this argument cos i cbf, i don't think that's far fretched at all. its pretty realistic actually. just look at many asian countries that have a streaming type system. the pressure is enormous. kids dont always get to exercise choice at that age; often their parents like to make those decisions for them. so yes, it happens, it's absolutely not far fetched and its not a positive thing either.

well then thats not the fault of the selection system, that's the parents fault.

ahah are u kidding, for all the arguments that other people put forward that you claim as being cop outs, this takes the cake!

are you saying that you can put any situation in place that is obviously going to change the behaviour, attitudes of people whatever, but that that system doesnt have to be accountable for it cos its those peoples fault for changing their behaviour?

come on thats effing ridiculous. i dont even no how to argue back to that.

streaming/select entry system -> parental pressure -> loss of childhood or whatever you want to call it, unnecessary stress on kids, creation of a society undesirably over centered on academic results at a young age

its already a select-entry system mdee. it already is.

[melanie.dee]

ok i clarify. academically selective entry.

anyway. i think iv spoken enough about this topic on irc

[brendan]

ok i clarify. academically selective entry.

anyway. i think iv spoken enough about this topic on irc

well that's a lot beter that postcode select entry system we have now.

[costargh]

I have a proposal. Tell me what you think of it.

The state is divided into geographic regions. Each region has one or two select-entry schools government schools. The rest are normal government schools.

This should solve the problem of having access to the best education for your child as each select-entry school would have to have a set of minimum requirements and standards that ensure high quality teaching and facilities, allowing students chosen on academic merit the opportunity to excel. This also eliminates properties being influenced by schools (maybe to a lesser degree but probably no a full elimination) and also it ensures that students are able to attend a school that is close to them and are not denied entry because of their lack of academic merit.

This is just an idea. Maybe people can build on it or just burn it down lol

[brendan]

I have a proposal. Tell me what you think of it.

The state is divided into geographic regions. Each region has one or two select-entry schools government schools. The rest are normal government schools.

This should solve the problem of having access to the best education for your child as each select-entry school would have to have a set of minimum requirements and standards that ensure high quality teaching and facilities, allowing students chosen on academic merit the opportunity to excel. This also eliminates properties being influenced by schools (maybe to a lesser degree but probably no a full elimination) and also it ensures that students are able to attend a school that is close to them and are not denied entry because of their lack of academic merit.

This is just an idea. Maybe people can build on it or just burn it down lol

that's just the same thing we have right now. i don't see how it will solve the problems identified by Leigh and Davidoff

secondly, the answer to the following question will determine the policy:
what's worse? being denied a place on the basis of where you live, or on academic merit?