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March 28, 2024, 10:24:27 pm

Author Topic: COVID-19 and Education  (Read 84105 times)  Share 

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The Cat In The Hat

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #270 on: August 07, 2020, 09:36:44 pm »
0
From this, those students who adapted well and possibly outperformed what their teacher's expectations were at the start of the year may be disadvantaged, same goes for those students who maybe didn't do too well in year 11 but focused in for year 12 thus exceeding expectations.
I was thinking that! I've outperformed it seems, so disadvantages :'(
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homeworkisapotato

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #271 on: August 07, 2020, 09:57:34 pm »
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I'm a little confused.. how are students who have outperformed and exceeded expectations possibly disadvantaged?
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Owlbird83

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #272 on: August 07, 2020, 10:07:54 pm »
+3
I'm a little confused.. how are students who have outperformed and exceeded expectations possibly disadvantaged?

I'm not sure how right I am, but because everyone is getting special consideration, and atars are a ranking, it wouldn't really mean anything unless they boost the scores of the people who haven't been doing well in isolation, which would be the same as bringing down the scores of people doing well, since it's a ranking?
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homeworkisapotato

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #273 on: August 07, 2020, 10:17:02 pm »
+2
Oh, that makes sense! They said that the considerations are individualised, and they'll also ask teachers. Idk about ALL but most teachers should be able to look at their students' unit 3 sacs and get an idea of how they would have performed throughout the year if corona didn't happen, right? Maybe VCAA will use the special considerations combined with what the teachers say to give some people varying levels of considerations. So maybe, if a student didn't do well in isolation and their teacher thinks they didn't really try/ do well in unit 3 the student won't get consideration? Contrastingly, if a student did really well but suffered from depression or had to manage their family in iso, one would think they also would get special consideration?
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keltingmeith

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #274 on: August 08, 2020, 07:17:32 am »
+2
So then what happens for the people who already needed special consideration? Who therefore talked to teachers last year saying, This is what I'm gonna be like next year? Who therefore the teachers already expect not to do as well? The ones where the teacher handed back a decent grade saying that they were very pleasurably surprised by the mark? Teachers who maybe still think of these kids as coasters this year from circumstances outside their control?

This train of thought really is a deep-dive down the rabbit hole of a thought process - any way you can voice your concern a little more clearly? Because as is I have no idea what you're worried about, sorry

I 100% agree. I personally think it's ridiculous to suggest that teachers can move people's ranks around based on their perceived impact of COVID-19 on individual students. It's ironic that every time they introduce something that is supposed to "alleviate the stress" of students or to "ensure that no one will be disadvantaged", it immediately makes me feel more stressed because we are now leaving things up to subjective judgement by teachers rather than consistency across the state. That said, I think one of the reasons why they can present it as a win-win is that, barring a massive turning point in the global vaccine hunt, the COVID-19 situation is going to completely block international students from coming to Australian universities next year, leaving heaps of places for domestic students, as long as they meet minimum entry requirements.

You say that like our state education system already has consistency and we've just removed it ::). There is a much bigger problem with the blocking of international students, though - and that's how the universities are going to stay afloat. Right now, they RELY on international students coming in and paying their ridiculous fees to remain profitable - without ANY international students, there's going to be a large strain on the system. Particularly with the stupid new degree costs being introduced by the Morrison government - they're literally asking universities to take more students while being paid less in their most expensive degrees to run. And like, before someone jumps on the whole "you're just a STEM elitist" - it's just a fact that it's cheaper to run tutorials and lectures that at most just require a shared computer lab than it is just to maintain the equipment required for STEM teaching (with one notable exception in mathematics, which tbh costs less than some HESS subjects and is probably on par with their average). Universities will be struggling in the years to come.

TBF, these are concerns you - as potential tertiary students - won't have to worry about short-term, and you'll probably be safe in being able to get the degree you want with just the normal level of concerns anyone doing year 12 has had to deal with. I am interested to see how the clearly-in ATARs are affected by the "carrot and stick" approach the Morrison government is taking with degree costs.

Perhaps the same schools that are more disadvantaged due to poorer online teaching and systems will also have teachers less able to write convincing justifications.

We can only hope that low SES schools, and definitely areas where the NBN hasn't been rolled out (not that the NBN is even good internet lol), will be considered given that those areas are just flat out going to be less prepared for internet-based learning than metropolitan Melbourne. However, I'm unsure about those teachers being able to be less convincing - it doesn't take technical ability to be a convincing person (see Trump), and definitely if any of them can make it clear their own miserable understanding of online systems, that tbh would probably make the Government see the teachers as some who probably adapted poorly, and so try to raise those students scores accordingly.

I know *nothing* about this, but I imagine the number of places in each course are based partly on projected employment needs in different industries.  International students may be given extra places because they're more likely to seek employment in other countries and not overburden our workforce (and make things cheaper for the govt as they pay full fee!)  But no idea.

So like, my understanding (as someone who as worked with people in admissions) is that the amount of places being offered is literally limited by how many students the university can accept. Sounds like backwards logic, but the point is that they literally take EVERYONE they can - the university doesn't consider things like projected employment in areas, they consider how many students they can physically fit into classes without losing money. And tbf, that's not necesarrily a BAD approach when you consider things like less and less people are getting jobs directly related to their undergraduate degrees (something like only 40% of science graduates at Monash have a job in STEM, with a disproportionate amount of astrophysics majors being hired as accountants). The university has no idea what you'll do with the degree they give you, so why restrict numbers when that has no bearing on what job you may actually end up taking?

You may think that more specialised degrees have a higher retention rate - and AFAIK that's correct, but the different isn't as big as you'd think. Here's some census data I found from the US, and interestingly it looks like something as little as 33% of students with engineering majors ended up being engineers (note that the US follows a unimelb-like approach - students don't study a Bachelor of Engineering, they'll instead study a Bachelor of Science and major in engineering. While it differs by university, typically in the US you study arts or science, and those are your choices, the major you take being essentially what your degree is in, so that's what you've gotta be looking at). Yes, the fact that this is US data does mean it's not directly comparable to our situation in Australia, but it can still be informative - but I'd love to see a similar graph for Australia if anyone can find it





On another note, everyone is discussing these changes as if what they're going to do is just scale each student, similar as to is already done with study scores. Has there actually been official word that THIS is how they'll handle the situation, or is that just assumption by everyone? It could simply be that all they'll do is grant special consideration for students as required, and most likely the biggest thing that'll happen is a group of students will get extra exam time for example, or some will have individual SAC marks changed (eg, we know Johnny's computer crashed during SAC 2 for further maths, so we're going to instead give him an average score for that SAC), etc., which IMHO wouldn't be that bad a way of handling it, and would definitely account for issues with remote-based learning without discounting students who have managed to do well despite these odds.

Lilyyyy

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #275 on: August 09, 2020, 01:55:21 pm »
+1
I feel like it's just a 'bandage' for the recent petition to cancel exams altogether. Considering that ATAR is just a ranking anyways, if everyone is 'special' then wouldn't that mean no one is special. I'm particularly doubtful about teachers ranking their students based on what they think they would be ---> which is really subjective. I was hoping that they could consider other more objective things like how people performed in year 11.
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Lilyyyy

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #276 on: August 09, 2020, 02:01:24 pm »
+2
I was honestly impacted by covid even before the start of term 1, there were already a very small number of cases in Australia at the time. I was extremely paranoid before the start of term 1 because all of my friends had just flown back from China, and my school had scheduled year 12 camp in the first week of school (remind you that there were no quarantine of any sorts for international travellers at the time). As a result I didn't attend school for the first two weeks, which adversely affected my study even before we went into remote.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I just don't think it makes sense for your year 12 teachers to predict where you would be, as they have barely seen your real potentials without the influence of covid. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to consider year 11 results or opinions from your year 11 teachers?
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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #277 on: August 09, 2020, 02:04:54 pm »
+15
Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score. Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.
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eloisegrace

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #278 on: August 09, 2020, 02:12:15 pm »
+8
Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score. Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.
I completely agree! I think that exams need to go ahead in order for this year to be as fair as possible. Without exams, there is NO consistency. As well with the special consideration, I feel that it is quite tough to measure the affects but it is nice knowing that they were trying to level out the playing field. I don't love the idea of teacher rankings either as it could be a bit subjective however it could make be a backup for odd SAC results?

Also with year 11 results being used, I think this is a terrible idea because some people use year 11 as there trial year for subjects, study techniques, etc. I for one did not do general maths 1/2 but am doing further maths 3/4, and my 1/2 subjects are a little bit over the place to be used for my 3/4 results.
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brothanathan

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #279 on: August 09, 2020, 03:28:14 pm »
+3
Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 03:36:58 pm by brothanathan »

Lear

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #280 on: August 09, 2020, 05:26:23 pm »
+5
Also with year 11 results being used, I think this is a terrible idea because some people use year 11 as there trial year for subjects, study techniques, etc. I for one did not do general maths 1/2 but am doing further maths 3/4, and my 1/2 subjects are a little bit over the place to be used for my 3/4 results.

Strongly agree. I personally did not work hard at all in year 11 and did quite poorly. If my teachers were to use my year 11 efforts and results as a benchmark, I would be in a lot of trouble.

On a broader scale, the students at my school who received academic awards for their subjects or overall achievement in year 11 didn't even necessarily do well in year 12. In my school, at least, year 11 was mistreated by most people. I think there are a significant amount of individuals who only turn on and start working hard in year 12. This was definitely the case for me and my peers in that the make up of high scorers often were very average students just the year before.
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keltingmeith

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #281 on: August 10, 2020, 03:21:37 am »
+5
Considering that ATAR is just a ranking anyways, if everyone is 'special' then wouldn't that mean no one is special.

Hard disagree if only because I hate this line in general. The typical reasoning is that if everyone is special, then the idea of what makes something "special" becomes shifted - which is untrue. If I have a trait that is special, it could be entirely different to the trait of someone else that is special, and so "special" as it once was remains. This paradox, unlike other more worthy ones, only forms because we decide it should be a paradox - NOT because it inherently makes no sense, like the Liar paradox.

Indeed, in this case, it's not about everyone being special - it's about the fact that different people have been affected in different ways, and the way to treat this impact will inherently be different for every person. Having not seen the petition in question (although I doubt it will go far - lol you ever seen a petition ever affect the Government), I can't really comment any more, but there's my thoughts on the matter.

I'm particularly doubtful about teachers ranking their students based on what they think they would be ---> which is really subjective. I was hoping that they could consider other more objective things like how people performed in year 11.

Year 11 is inherently subjective, though. The topics covered can be entirely different to the topics covered in year 12 (let's compare my year 11 chemistry scores to year 12 shall we - I'd love to have my constantly 100% tests compared to a sea ranging from 50%-96%), the schools set the difficulty of the material, and people just often feel less motivated to try hard unless they're interested in scholarships, doing university enhancement, or have an inherent sense of competition, as others have pointed out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I just don't think it makes sense for your year 12 teachers to predict where you would be, as they have barely seen your real potentials without the influence of covid. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to consider year 11 results or opinions from your year 11 teachers?

I mean, your year 12 teachers work with your year 11 teachers. You honestly think they're going to sit in a vacuum and not talk to each other? Not to mention that they'll still have access to your year 11 results. Plus, there's no guarantee that at every school, whoever taught you year 11 still teaches there. I wouldn't be surprised if as many as a teacher EVERY SECOND SCHOOL who taught a year 11 subject is no longer at the school, considering how often rotations occur.

Cancelling exams is a horrible idea imo. Exams are the only properly standardised way of assessing each individual's knowledge/skills that contributes to the final study score.

Interesting argument since research suggests that standardised tests are a poor method for testing a person's ability

Right now, SACs are messy, all over the place, and done in vastly different ways in different schools. I don't understand why people want to cancel exams, currently it's our only hope. And it doesn't mean everyone is "special", because different people are disadvantaged to varying degrees atm. However, the whole teachers ranking students thing isn't a good idea either, I agree they should be using other objective things. And how will they measure how much each student has been affected? Things like effects on mental health, increased responsibilities leading to inability to focus on schoolwork, etc are almost impossible to measure accurately. I understand where they are coming from but in the end there's only so much they will do, and the disparity they are so desperately attempting to address will still exist to some degree.

I mean, it's entirely true that the disparity will still exist, no matter what we do. But we don't know that this won't help - again, we don't actually know HOW they're going to address the inequity (unless someone can provide me with a source), just that your teachers will be the judge of it.

There's a lot of fears, there's a lot of "it'll suck if x happens" being thrown around, but if we don't actually KNOW what the government is going to do (and I repeat - if you've got a source that I've missed, please educate me. Knowledge is power, and tbh I really want to deconstruct the Government's opinion in a way that'll make you all feel at ease if I can. The running around in circles being worried almost feels as stressful to watch as it likely is to experience), you're probably better off not thinking about it, and instead trying to focus on getting through stage 4.

Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.

Spoken like a true anarchist? Tbh I'm entirely confused by what your point is.

The Cat In The Hat

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #282 on: August 10, 2020, 09:58:23 am »
+1
Unpopular viewpoint: As unjust as this may be, that's just how many things work in our rigged society. These amendments remind students that the first step is as important as the last.

The foundations our social system was built on.. In ways we fail to accept deep down, what we really are as a society.
I don't like the idea but I kind of agree. Myself, I can't even remember a lot of my year 11 results... so I don't know, if they use that, if that's good or not. I guess if the worst comes to the worst we can all rely on the GAT, if it happens?
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brothanathan

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #283 on: August 10, 2020, 10:06:14 am »
+3
Spoken like a true anarchist? Tbh I'm entirely confused by what your point is.

I'm taking that as a compliment. Thank you, you couldn't put it any better, like a true anarchist. Had to phrase my point like that, as to avoid any conflicts.

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.

Hope this assists a little bit with the interpretation of my initial viewpoint. I would like to not decipher it further, for the sake of not going beyond moderate controversy.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 10:27:17 am by brothanathan »

keltingmeith

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #284 on: August 10, 2020, 12:23:02 pm »
0
I'm taking that as a compliment. Thank you, you couldn't put it any better, like a true anarchist. Had to phrase my point like that, as to avoid any conflicts.

To translate my point a little: How VCE has ended up being for Year 12 this year is similar to how things are in the 'real world', if students have yet experienced or grasped how it really is or what it truly represents.

Hope this assists a little bit with the interpretation of my initial viewpoint. I would like to not decipher it further, for the sake of not going beyond moderate controversy.

I mean, I have more anarchist friends than I thought I'd ever have, and think we can all have an open discussion about these things without judging each other? (unless your views are discriminatory, in which case I'd like to help you see why those views are damaging to yourself as well as the person your discriminating against)

To which I have to say, I don't think society is AT ALL like you seem to say it is. I do agree that the first step is as important as the last, but also that point kind of doesn't follow from your first statement? It's like saying, "Steak is problematic in that it comes from animals - so we should all accept that cheesecake is the best dessert" - like sure, what you're SAYING is inherently true, but has no relevance to your initial point. The worst bit is that it encourages people to agree with you, because they agree with the one point you've actually given - cheesecake IS the best dessert.

And that final line? Look, I mean no offence - but you sound like a toddler that just discovered pot. Potentially you can be less vague and more constructive in conversation? What are we "really" as a society?