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March 29, 2024, 06:06:05 pm

Author Topic: motion  (Read 7232 times)  Share 

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cosec(x)

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Re: motion
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2008, 07:31:26 pm »
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No, giving enhancement subjects full study scores is not a solution. This is primarily because they do not involve a full subjects workload. about 3 hours of study including lessons per week can get you a high distinction/first class honours.

Excessively high scaling is also not a good way to entice people to do maths and physics. Take the example of languages, which I believe get scaled up five more than they should as a government plan to bolster language studies. Whilst this a benefit to apt students, students who really struggle take the subject for the scaling and then get below 25. They would, (and the VCAA VCE brochure agrees) be better off doing a subject they enjoy. If UMEP were a normal subject, with a full workload, it would be scaled by at least 15. Such a number would attract many Specialist students who couldn't cope with the maths understanding along with digesting Specialist.

Furthermore, this would discourage people from spreading their subjects across various fields. It would mean that someone could have 3 maths subjects that scale up in their top 4. The IB, one possible example for modern education standards requires a diverse course selection. Adding another high end mainstream math detracts from the diversity you can find in a VCE course.

So, this is why having enhancement subjects scale is a bad idea. They are an enhancement to the VCE, not the VCE itself and should be regarded as such. Given the structure of scaling, were they to be taught, the VCE system would have to be overhauled.

BTW, I eagerly await a response, devil's advocate is my favourite game
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Re: motion
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2008, 08:02:41 pm »
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No, giving enhancement subjects full study scores is not a solution. This is primarily because they do not involve a full subjects workload. about 3 hours of study including lessons per week can get you a high distinction/first class honours.

Excessively high scaling is also not a good way to entice people to do maths and physics. Take the example of languages, which I believe get scaled up five more than they should as a government plan to bolster language studies. Whilst this a benefit to apt students, students who really struggle take the subject for the scaling and then get below 25. They would, (and the VCAA VCE brochure agrees) be better off doing a subject they enjoy. If UMEP were a normal subject, with a full workload, it would be scaled by at least 15. Such a number would attract many Specialist students who couldn't cope with the maths understanding along with digesting Specialist.

and these people would soon realise this.
what should not be ignored is that teachers arent automatic robots, and you dont just pick your subjects, there is such thing called "career conselling", which involves teachers who know your abilities talking to you about what subjects you can and should do.
a student picking this subject beyond their level do so at their own peril, its not like they have no information about it at all.


Furthermore, this would discourage people from spreading their subjects across various fields. It would mean that someone could have 3 maths subjects that scale up in their top 4. The IB, one possible example for modern education standards requires a diverse course selection. Adding another high end mainstream math detracts from the diversity you can find in a VCE course.

such a system is already in place: only three mathematic subjects count towards the ENTER. there is nothing wrong with having three subjects scale up in the top 4, it just means this person is a capable student who is well suited for some awesome degree.
also keep in mind that prerequisites towards particular courses should not be ignored. say for medicine, whilst a person may buff up with three maths, chemistry and english are still prereqs, its not as if there is no compulsory diversification.

another key point should be noted is that not many people will have the enthusiasm to pursue three concurrent math enrolments. true that some people will exploit the advantages, but few will have the mentality to keep this up. simply put, people arent all crazy and fatalistic [sorry :P] like some of us, and this option allows those who enjoys math to develop their potential and their achievements valued.


So, this is why having enhancement subjects scale is a bad idea. They are an enhancement to the VCE, not the VCE itself and should be regarded as such. Given the structure of scaling, were they to be taught, the VCE system would have to be overhauled.

BTW, I eagerly await a response, devil's advocate is my favourite game
VCE should be overhauled, I have no wish to be compared to an Arts student [for example], ENTER is not the best system

and LOL, devil's advocate is always fun :)
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enwiabe

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Re: motion
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 11:02:05 pm »
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I think MM's standard is good. It's a medium maths that introduces the calculus foundations and probability without going overboard. It's nice as it is.

Spec, on the other hand, is a fucking joke.

Pop

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Re: motion
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2008, 06:09:28 pm »
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VCE should be overhauled, I have no wish to be compared to an Arts student [for example], ENTER is not the best system

and LOL, devil's advocate is always fun :)

Forget a reworking of the ENTER, a complete overhaul on university selection is necessary that is unbiased and allows the best candidate for the position to be selected. Such a system would measure intellectual capacity, not the ability to regurgitate a book in an exam. The system would require every potential applicant to submit his or her DNA for close aptitude analysis. Those who possess the necessary genetic qualities for the chosen career are selected and those genetically inferior are rightfully rejected to choose a profession or field more suited to their abilities.
Gatacca anyone? Umat works on the same basis, testing natural ability at understanding and solving problems, not how many equations you can remember. Or at least that’s my understanding of it

Let the debating on ethics begin..
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 06:11:52 pm by Pop »

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Re: motion
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2008, 07:51:58 pm »
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VCE should be overhauled, I have no wish to be compared to an Arts student [for example], ENTER is not the best system

and LOL, devil's advocate is always fun :)

Forget a reworking of the ENTER, a complete overhaul on university selection is necessary that is unbiased and allows the best candidate for the position to be selected. Such a system would measure intellectual capacity, not the ability to regurgitate a book in an exam. The system would require every potential applicant to submit his or her DNA for close aptitude analysis. Those who possess the necessary genetic qualities for the chosen career are selected and those genetically inferior are rightfully rejected to choose a profession or field more suited to their abilities.
Gatacca anyone? Umat works on the same basis, testing natural ability at understanding and solving problems, not how many equations you can remember. Or at least that’s my understanding of it

Let the debating on ethics begin..

now that is absurd. we dont have the technology nor resources to examine everyone by their DNA, nor do we have the scientific foundation to judge people by their foundation.

and your view on exams is very biased. they are not hopeless regurgitation, they are application of your knowledge. If you memorised the formulae but dont understand the material, you will not know how to do a question even though you have all the protocols for solving questions. If you understand the material but cannot apply the formulae, you are sorrily imcompetent and regardless of the level of understanding, it is futile and useless as there is no application.

and on the note for DNA, lets suppose two people with the same level of "intelligence", one is a lazy ass and one is a working nerd. according to you they should have the same opportunities into education. dilemma?
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dcc

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Re: motion
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2008, 08:41:34 pm »
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and on the note for DNA, lets suppose two people with the same level of "intelligence", one is a lazy ass and one is a working nerd. according to you they should have the same opportunities into education. dilemma?

Ah you are missing the point, their DNA would ensure that they were not lazy! :P

Mao

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Re: motion
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2008, 09:09:56 pm »
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and on the note for DNA, lets suppose two people with the same level of "intelligence", one is a lazy ass and one is a working nerd. according to you they should have the same opportunities into education. dilemma?

Ah you are missing the point, their DNA would ensure that they were not lazy! :P
I shall volunteer for burger-making then :P
Its better than the shame of "course rejected due to: LAZY GENE!!! LOL"
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chid

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Re: motion
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2008, 10:57:01 pm »
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I think performance in VCE is a far better indicator of future performance than testing on the basis of 'natural ability.' Aptitude tests provide a reflection of general ability but are not indicative of work ethic for example. Performing well in VCE requires a sustained and consistent approach over a considerable period of time.
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Maths Mathods CAS 50     (2007) Chemistry 46

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AppleXY

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Re: motion
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2008, 11:35:52 pm »
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VCE should be overhauled, I have no wish to be compared to an Arts student [for example], ENTER is not the best system

and LOL, devil's advocate is always fun :)

Forget a reworking of the ENTER, a complete overhaul on university selection is necessary that is unbiased and allows the best candidate for the position to be selected. Such a system would measure intellectual capacity, not the ability to regurgitate a book in an exam. The system would require every potential applicant to submit his or her DNA for close aptitude analysis. Those who possess the necessary genetic qualities for the chosen career are selected and those genetically inferior are rightfully rejected to choose a profession or field more suited to their abilities.
Gatacca anyone? Umat works on the same basis, testing natural ability at understanding and solving problems, not how many equations you can remember. Or at least that’s my understanding of it

Let the debating on ethics begin..

DNA analysis, look what my school does to people :P

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Re: motion
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2008, 11:41:14 pm »
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VCE should be overhauled, I have no wish to be compared to an Arts student [for example], ENTER is not the best system

and LOL, devil's advocate is always fun :)

Forget a reworking of the ENTER, a complete overhaul on university selection is necessary that is unbiased and allows the best candidate for the position to be selected. Such a system would measure intellectual capacity, not the ability to regurgitate a book in an exam. The system would require every potential applicant to submit his or her DNA for close aptitude analysis. Those who possess the necessary genetic qualities for the chosen career are selected and those genetically inferior are rightfully rejected to choose a profession or field more suited to their abilities.
Gatacca anyone? Umat works on the same basis, testing natural ability at understanding and solving problems, not how many equations you can remember. Or at least that’s my understanding of it

Let the debating on ethics begin..

I made bold everything I agree with.
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dancing_jesus

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Re: motion
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2008, 01:16:04 am »
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hey don't question the validity of DNA testing, just because yours made you turn out like this

« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 03:06:01 pm by dancing_jesus »

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Re: motion
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2008, 03:07:07 am »
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How can a DNA test be unbiased?

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Re: motion
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2008, 12:07:12 pm »
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hey don't question the validity DNA testing, just because yours made you turn out like this

do you have any reasoning/evidence that proves the validity of DNA testing?
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cosec(x)

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Re: motion
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2008, 02:52:22 pm »
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I know that in Queensland, most university selection is based on a GAT like exam. An ideal system would measure aptitude and effort. The GAT is a good measure of aptitude, but how can you measure effort? Perhaps in teacher reports.

on the topic of DNA testing, we see in the mentioned Gattaca film, "There is no gene for the human spirit" (that IS a quote,its on the DVD cover, good ol' Yr 9 English). The entire movie is a case against DNA testing as it shows that doing so would exclude valuable, inspired people from working in a position where they will exceed because their genes are wrong.

Perhaps the best system looks at study scores as opposed to ENTER, or different courses calculate the ENTER in different ways. However, the unfortunate fact seems to be that the better you want to make the system, the harder it is to calculate a fair ENTER.

It must also be said though that ENTER is not the end of the road in a career, but a DNA test probably is.
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Re: motion
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2008, 04:35:01 pm »
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I know that in Queensland, most university selection is based on a GAT like exam. An ideal system would measure aptitude and effort. The GAT is a good measure of aptitude, but how can you measure effort? Perhaps in teacher reports.

on the topic of DNA testing, we see in the mentioned Gattaca film, "There is no gene for the human spirit" (that IS a quote,its on the DVD cover, good ol' Yr 9 English). The entire movie is a case against DNA testing as it shows that doing so would exclude valuable, inspired people from working in a position where they will exceed because their genes are wrong.

Perhaps the best system looks at study scores as opposed to ENTER, or different courses calculate the ENTER in different ways. However, the unfortunate fact seems to be that the better you want to make the system, the harder it is to calculate a fair ENTER.

It must also be said though that ENTER is not the end of the road in a career, but a DNA test probably is.
well said.

there is another option though, that we abandon ENTER altogether [or even VCE altogether], and let the universities decide their own prereqs and examinations.
that system will be a lot "fairer". [as for why, I know but i cannot explain. coblin can if he can be bothered :P ]
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