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March 29, 2024, 09:54:08 pm

Author Topic: COVID-19 and Education  (Read 84252 times)  Share 

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Stormbreaker-X

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2020, 08:23:03 pm »
0
So I just heard of the plan B and plan C thing on the news, so far I think gonna have to disagree with plan C tho. Using GAT (which is not important), year 11 marks (which I did poorly at) or school based judgement is a terrible plan. I most likely have to disagree with pretty much all plans. In my opinion exams should go on or be delayed. Is the remote learning thing going for all term 2? or just a small part of it?

Aaron

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2020, 08:32:36 pm »
+6
So I just heard of the plan B and plan C thing on the news, so far I think gonna have to disagree with plan C tho. Using GAT (which is not important), year 11 marks (which I did poorly at) or school based judgement is a terrible plan. I most likely have to disagree with pretty much all plans. In my opinion exams should go on or be delayed. Is the remote learning thing going for all term 2? or just a small part of it?

At the moment all of Term 2. But like what we've seen, anything can change at any time.

There's no 'right' way to approach this whole thing either, by the way. Nothing is going to be 100% and there's going to always be someone that disagrees or is hard done by because of it, but honestly this is something I know I haven't seen in my lifetime. It sucks that it has disrupted Year 12 and you're the unlucky bunch that has copped it, but the health of yourself and everybody else takes priority. The "Plan B and C" are worst case scenarios and they are at the moment just ideas. In a terrible situation, we're all just doing our best and making the most of what we can. Over the past month I have led (as part of a small ICT team) the online transition for my school and there is worry from Year 12 teachers as well (quite rightly)... but know this, your school will be doing EVERYTHING they can to support you all during this time within the guidelines set.

I'd honestly be prepared for all of Term 2 with the potential for longer. They (the government(s)) will not risk a return to school (which is a crowded/populated place, with a clear inability to maintain social distancing if all students/teachers are present) while its still spreading, given the strict social isolation and quarantining which has inconvenienced most if not all of our lives for a good couple of weeks now.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 08:46:39 pm by Aaron »
Experience in teaching at both secondary and tertiary levels.

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ArtyDreams

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2020, 08:49:25 pm »
+4
Is the remote learning thing going for all term 2? or just a small part of it?

My school just made an announcement and said remote learning will occur for all of Term 2.

Was not expecting this tbh.

Stormbreaker-X

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2020, 09:16:52 pm »
+1
At the moment all of Term 2. But like what we've seen, anything can change at any time.

There's no 'right' way to approach this whole thing either, by the way. Nothing is going to be 100% and there's going to always be someone that disagrees or is hard done by because of it, but honestly this is something I know I haven't seen in my lifetime. It sucks that it has disrupted Year 12 and you're the unlucky bunch that has copped it, but the health of yourself and everybody else takes priority. The "Plan B and C" are worst case scenarios and they are at the moment just ideas. In a terrible situation, we're all just doing our best and making the most of what we can. Over the past month I have led (as part of a small ICT team) the online transition for my school and there is worry from Year 12 teachers as well (quite rightly)... but know this, your school will be doing EVERYTHING they can to support you all during this time within the guidelines set.

I'd honestly be prepared for all of Term 2 with the potential for longer. They (the government(s)) will not risk a return to school (which is a crowded/populated place, with a clear inability to maintain social distancing if all students/teachers are present) while its still spreading, given the strict social isolation and quarantining which has inconvenienced most if not all of our lives for a good couple of weeks now.
Honestly I hope not longer, I think we are starting to flatten that corona virus curve. I feel like it should occur term 2, but potential (hope not) longer. My school just sent a message as well, to all students and said that students who can learn from home MUST LEARN FROM HOME; schools will remain open tho.

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J_Rho

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2020, 08:50:17 am »
+1
https://www.smh.com.au/education/kill-the-atar-call-to-cancel-exams-amid-coronavirus-outbreak-and-as-unscored-vce-gains-ground-20200330-p54fdd.html

Idk about you guys but I don't think randoms should be able to sign a petition to scrap the ATAR, I think if anything it should be exclusive to students and perhaps teachers....this is old news but what do you all think?
— VCE —
English 30, Further Maths 33, Biology 33, Legal Studies 27, Psychology 32

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S_R_K

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #111 on: April 09, 2020, 10:35:26 am »
+3
It's not just students / teachers that are stakeholders in the ATAR system.

For better or for worse (and, generally I don't like it), it is an important tool that we use for allocating educational / economic / social opportunities, and thus it plays a very significant role in the organisation of our society, and thus a wide range of people have an interest in whether it exists and the form in which it exists.

Sine

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2020, 02:22:56 pm »
+2
https://www.smh.com.au/education/kill-the-atar-call-to-cancel-exams-amid-coronavirus-outbreak-and-as-unscored-vce-gains-ground-20200330-p54fdd.html

Idk about you guys but I don't think randoms should be able to sign a petition to scrap the ATAR, I think if anything it should be exclusive to students and perhaps teachers....this is old news but what do you all think?
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?

J_Rho

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2020, 02:31:32 pm »
+3
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?
That's my thought process, but maybe people think if everyone does 'unscored' then everyone has equal chance to go to uni? It baffles me, because even if the entire state goes shit SOMEONE has to get the 99.95's and 99's etc
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S_R_K

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2020, 02:49:16 pm »
+5
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?

That doesn't follow. One might dislike ATARs but want to do a course that requires a minimum ATAR for entry.

That's my thought process, but maybe people think if everyone does 'unscored' then everyone has equal chance to go to uni? It baffles me, because even if the entire state goes shit SOMEONE has to get the 99.95's and 99's etc

I don't have any evidence, but my hunch would be that there's very little variation from year to year in the academic ability of the 99.xx cohort. But you're right, the fact that ATAR is a ranking rather than a more direct measure of academic achievement is a significant problem.

There's also no reason to believe that removing ATARs would undermine the integrity of university admissions. Just require minimum standards of performance on prerequisite subjects - where "minimum standard" is not measured by study scores but by raw scores on exams.

TigerMum

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2020, 03:18:02 pm »
+8
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?

My thoughts exactly. If someone truly believes that the ATAR should be scrapped, then they should have a proposition for a better system. I haven't heard a single idea for a better system. As opposed to straight standardised tests, the ATAR not only rewards aptitude, but hard work and persistence. If you don't plan to go to university, then you don't need to receive an ATAR.

The bottom line is that students need to be ranked in one way or another for university entrances, and I believe that looking at Year 12 results are the best way of doing it. Our system is vastly superior to countries like US, where they consider all sorts of things like extra-curricular activities and internships, which mostly benefits those who have parents that can fund those activities, (not to mention heaps of application essays that are just a competition of who can find the best application writer) and the ATAR completely avoids nepotism and gender or racial bias. Of course, the ATAR system isn't perfect, and I think there are plenty of valid criticisms, but I am yet to hear of a reasonable alternative.

My final point is in relation to the idea that the ATAR being a rank is a bad thing. Universities will inevitably rank applicants by academic performance, so I believe that having a system that can assess and balance academic performance across the whole state is far more equitable than leaving it to university discretion.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 03:23:53 pm by TigerMum »

ashmi

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2020, 03:26:46 pm »
+4
If there is an option for unscored VCE couldn't everyone who wants to scrap the ATAR just do an unscored VCE?
That's my thought process, but maybe people think if everyone does 'unscored' then everyone has equal chance to go to uni? It baffles me, because even if the entire state goes shit SOMEONE has to get the 99.95's and 99's etc

I do agree with this here! If people want to not get the ATAR, they can always do it unscored anyway.
The one thing the ATAR does well in comparison to other alternatives is that it lets you pick pretty much any subject (excluding the English prerequisite which makes sense). Compared to the IB, where you have to pick 3HLs/3SLs and in certain subject areas, at least people doing the ATAR can choose a certain area (e.g. maths/science-based or art-based subjects. They are not confined like IB).

That doesn't follow. One might dislike ATARs but want to do a course that requires a minimum ATAR for entry.
I don't have any evidence, but my hunch would be that there's very little variation from year to year in the academic ability of the 99.xx cohort. But you're right, the fact that ATAR is a ranking rather than a more direct measure of academic achievement is a significant problem.
There's also no reason to believe that removing ATARs would undermine the integrity of university admissions. Just require minimum standards of performance on prerequisite subjects - where "minimum standard" is not measured by study scores but by raw scores on exams.
I like a few points in this! Universities do have their own standards themselves and I feel like even if we did get rid of the ATAR system, having something like 'entrance exams' would pretty much be exactly the same as the ATAR to begin with, maybe even worse. It's like saying for some courses you need a "Study score of 25 in Methods", however, if we did get rid of the ATAR system, to begin with, and let's say look at the exams, they probably would raise the cut-off mark to be much higher than it is now (not all unis can accommodate everyone. Kinda like inflation if that makes sense?).

The ATAR gives you a chance to show your potential in not just prerequisites but also subjects you are passionate about. It gives you options to study a wide range of subjects that you are good at in order to get a good score. It does have its flaws here but overall, it gives you a chance to do well so long as you pick what you are good at.
Speaking of flaws, I would love to see something happen to VCE folio subjects which maybe go through an 'interview' stage, similar to Language orals exams rather than being assessed by one person. It would mean that folio scores would not have to be moderated by the end-of-year exam and that someone can get the score they truly deserve for their efforts. (Went a bit side track there).


Sine

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2020, 03:49:19 pm »
+6
-snip-
-snip-
Completely agree with both who make really good arguments.

Like TigerMum says the ATAR system is not perfect but it is a lot better than a lot of places elsewhere in the world. Whilst it is a 100% equitable system it does do really well to reduce the amount of corruption within the system (e.g. gender bias) by having one system.  Rather than each university having its own set of entry tests and thus biases. I think moving away from an ATAR at this point (with no real alternative proposed) will only exacerbate any inequalities. In addition to this if you scrap the ATAR you do need a better alternative to this and whatever this system is universities still need to rank students to determine admission.

S_R_K

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2020, 04:08:35 pm »
+1
We do not need a system for ranking university applicants.

The only reason people think this is true is because this is currently how things work and because we have a federal government that is unwilling to provide the level of funding required for all academically able students to complete a degree of their choice.

Removing ATAR would not result in a vague / inequitable university admissions system (or at least anymore than it currently is). Simply set minimum academic standards (as judged by raw scores on VCE exams). There is no need for universities to set their own entrance exams.

ashmi

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Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2020, 04:28:04 pm »
+7
We do not need a system for ranking university applicants.

The only reason people think this is true is because this is currently how things work and because we have a federal government that is unwilling to provide the level of funding required for all academically able students to complete a degree of their choice.

Removing ATAR would not result in a vague / inequitable university admissions system (or at least anymore than it currently is). Simply set minimum academic standards (as judged by raw scores on VCE exams). There is no need for universities to set their own entrance exams.
This is an interesting point. :o (I love all these different opinions)

My two cents here, but you know how you said 'minimum academic standards' right? What happens when an exam is considered to be very difficult one year or really easy? Would universities change their 'minimum academic standards' or would it increase/decrease due to demand of how many people want to study a certain course?
This is also an economic issue too as we can't have everyone who passed the minimum academic standards get into the course they want (there are only so many spots) and when this does occur, would they still rank them from best to worst performing students? (or would they look at other stuff such as extra-curricular activities that you did in VCE?).
Also got a quick question, let's say you are a year 12 in 2020 and say that all the exams you did this year were hard (assume you barely passed the minimum academic standard thingy). Then let's say you had a gap year or something and then when you apply again, would they compare your scores based off the cohort you graduated from or the new cohort coming into uni who had easier exams?🤣 (I don't even know if what I said makes sense. Like how would you compare your scores to those that did the same subject in different years?)