Double degree in Science/Education?

[peartroll]

Hey guys,

I'm a year 12 student and am struggling between choosing a double degree in bach of sci/M.teach or just stick with a bachelor of science then head off to do masters.
I guess you can say that I'm not entirely 'mature' yet, and to already be doing placements next year as an 18 year old is a self-doubt, but I'm willing to work on this.

Thanks everyone

[Aaron]

I would strongly recommend the Bachelor then MTeach pathway especially if you are in Year 12 at the moment.
I did this myself and started teaching at the age of 22 - while it's great for the experience I couldn't have seen myself doing placements etc. at 18 or 19. It's way too young and honestly i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't get taken seriously. I know I didn't when I started out.

Have 3 years just to get your content knowledge up to date through the BSc, try and ensure you meet the requirements for 2 method areas (if you are doing secondary teaching) and then do your MTeach somewhere. You will be so much better off for it.

Up to you, but just my thoughts as somebody who went straight from school and became a teacher w/out any sort of work exp before hand.

Cheers

[peartroll]

I would strongly recommend the Bachelor then MTeach pathway especially if you are in Year 12 at the moment.
I did this myself and started teaching at the age of 22 - while it's great for the experience I couldn't have seen myself doing placements etc. at 18 or 19. It's way too young and honestly i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't get taken seriously. I know I didn't when I started out.

Have 3 years just to get your content knowledge up to date through the BSc, try and ensure you meet the requirements for 2 method areas (if you are doing secondary teaching) and then do your MTeach somewhere. You will be so much better off for it.

Up to you, but just my thoughts as somebody who went straight from school and became a teacher w/out any sort of work exp before hand.

Cheers

Thanks Aaron.

I've decided to just stick with the bachelors first then head towards Mteach. I did a bit of research and it looks like Mteach consists of more theory than there is practical activity... Hm right then, I would have appreciated more practical work tho. 

Up to you, but just my thoughts as somebody who went straight from school and became a teacher w/out any sort of work exp before hand.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - did you not have any jobs prior to full-time teaching?
Thanks man

[Aaron]

I did a bit of research and it looks like Mteach consists of more theory than there is practical activity... Hm right then, I would have appreciated more practical work tho. 

It is unfortunately one of the downfalls. Masters degrees require an inquiry project, capstone or thesis of some kind (applies to most if not all Masters degrees). Some unis do extended placements but most are theory-rich. I personally hated that about the MTeach I did - I gained invaluable experience on placement and really I haven't used much from uni in the 3 years i've been teaching so far. I have a masters and had to do a inquiry project but did I enjoy it, not at all. I viewed the degree as a hurdle and there's so many of them you have to jump - e.g. the CASPer admission test and then the Literacy and Numeracy test by ACER - that's just to graduate.

That's why it's so important to take the placements extremely seriously and get as much as you can out of it - do as much as you can in that short amount of time. It is really an extended job interview - if you don't get a position at your placement school, then hopefully you can use some of the things from it when you apply somewhere.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - did you not have any jobs prior to full-time teaching?

Not really. I did some casual academic work at La Trobe for a year teaching 1st year students programming but that's about it. I wanted to focus on school and was lucky that I had a supportive home (in all aspects, but in this case, financially).

Hope I haven't spooked you too much but it is a pain in the ass just to get into a classroom and teach - it's worth it though.

I really think you've made the right call re: BSc then MTeach. It will give you 3 years to build your academic capacity in the discipline and will also test whether you still want to teach after a 3 year period. Also ensures that you have some time to "grow up" before you embark on this journey (if you still decide to). Just make sure that you strategically pick your majors - you have to satisfy those 2 method areas to enrol in the MTeach. When I did my IT degree I had to strategically pick maths/stats as all my electives to ensure I had enough for the Maths area. Realistically your majors should be the areas you want to teach (that's the thinking you should have if you are certain on teaching) - e.g. Mathematical Statistics and Chemistry (you'd then be qualified for Maths and VCE Chem/potentially General Science 7-10 as an example).

I'd also consider when you go for the MTeach to do an accelerated stream (1.5 years instead of 2 years) -  this will allow you (provided you don't fail any units) to have the extra 6 months to do some CRT / cover work / a temporary contract to ease you into it. I did that and while it was bumpy the experience I gained moving around schools early was invaluable.

[peartroll]

Legend!

Is it possible for me to be a polymath teacher? I love science and maths, but I am also passionate about IT, LOTE, fine arts. Like you said though, I'm pretty sure I have a limited amount of subjects I can teach.

Realistically your majors should be the areas you want to teach (that's the thinking you should have if you are certain on teaching) - e.g. Mathematical Statistics and Chemistry (you'd then be qualified for Maths and VCE Chem/potentially General Science 7-10 as an example).

I'm not quite sure about the general science one, I've asked a lot of the uni student teachers but I don't understand. How can I become qualified for general science? Is it a subject I do or does it come complementary to me doing bachelor of science?

Not really. I did some casual academic work at La Trobe for a year teaching 1st year students programming but that's about it. I wanted to focus on school and was lucky that I had a supportive home (in all aspects, but in this case, financially).

Wow, don't mean to downgrade you but I'm very surprised someone with only a casual work of teaching could become a full-time teacher! My plan was to graduate with the Mteach then head off to become a CRT (as I doubt I'd be able to get a full-time job that easily).

I'd also consider when you go for the MTeach to do an accelerated stream (1.5 years instead of 2 years) -  this will allow you (provided you don't fail any units) to have the extra 6 months to do some CRT / cover work / a temporary contract to ease you into it. I did that and while it was bumpy the experience I gained moving around schools early was invaluable.

Hmm. I've never heard of this before. What's the main difference? Do you learn all the content in the 2 years in the 1.5 years? Or are there parts that are cut (as in less practicum)

Cheers brother

[Aaron]

Is it possible for me to be a polymath teacher? I love science and maths, but I am also passionate about IT, LOTE, fine arts. Like you said though, I'm pretty sure I have a limited amount of subjects I can teach.

Hard to, especially in secondary. Vacancies advertised particularly in the government system are a direct fill for a teaching allotment that has already been determined so the wriggle room particularly in that first year of employment is minimal. Schools can hire you to teach something else if they are satisfied during interview that you are able to teach it. The two method areas are not binding but it's hard to convince a selection panel of your ability to teach a particular area if it is not your method areas that are formally recognised. I would imagine it would be even harder in the independent system.

Like.. don't get me wrong, it is definitely common especially in the govt system where teachers teach outside their specialisation but this on a per-school basis and really it's about showing you can teach it.... so it's not entirely lost hope!

Also.. i've seen some pretty strange teaching combinations that schools advertise over the past couple of years. Would definitely encourage you to go and have a look at Recruitment Online (govt system job board) and see the types of jobs being advertised. Check it every so often, it gives you an idea of what and when schools hire.

I'm not quite sure about the general science one, I've asked a lot of the uni student teachers but I don't understand. How can I become qualified for general science? Is it a subject I do or does it come complementary to me doing bachelor of science?

According to the Victorian Institute of Teaching (VIT) guidelines, to be qualified to teach general science (which is essentially the term used for Year 7-10 science) you need to have EITHER a) a major or minor in one of biology, chemistry, earth sciences, environmental science or physics with a "part" in another (so will require study at university in two of these mentioned disciplines) OR b) major/minor specificially in general science.

Usually though if you are qualified in a specific science e.g. Chem along with something else e.g. Maths, the Chem part will convince a school that you are competent enough to teach Gen Sci. The guidelines linked below (and mentioned to here) are for university entry into a degree with that method area. You cannot be FORMALLY recognised for it unless you meet these guidelines - and with any secondary teaching degree, a maximum of 2 method areas can be recognised.

https://www.vit.vic.edu.au/media/documents/publications-and-forms/forms/Specialist_Area_Guidelines_2015.pdf
The VIT and universities use this to determine your eligibility to be formally qualified in a particular area. If you decide when you apply for the MTeach that you want to enter the MTeach with the method areas Maths and Chemistry then they will look at this doc and make sure your transcript matches the eligibility requirements.

Wow, don't mean to downgrade you but I'm very surprised someone with only a casual work of teaching could become a full-time teacher! My plan was to graduate with the Mteach then head off to become a CRT (as I doubt I'd be able to get a full-time job that easily).

The ability to teach certain areas definitely helps your case when you apply for jobs. Govt schools are crying out for maths/science teachers so I would definitely recommend if you can get those 2 areas, that will help your case significantly. For me, I have maths and digital technologies as my method areas. First one being maths, second being a very rare area such as digitech (there aren't many formally qualified digitech teachers out there, but the jobs too aren't that high purely because digitech is still seen as an area that can just be a filler for an existing teacher who hasn't been given enough in their allotment). My first job was at my placement school hence I reiterate again, placements are crucial. I applied formally, did the interview and they gave it to me the same day.

The casual employment while casual and only for a year was relevant as it was in education (albeit at a university - but still it was teaching). One could argue that that outweighs employment in an outside area.

CRT is good as it allows you to experience a wide range of schools and how each operate, how kids behave (they are ALL different - from school to school).

Hmm. I've never heard of this before. What's the main difference? Do you learn all the content in the 2 years in the 1.5 years? Or are there parts that are cut (as in less practicum)

A summer intensive in lieu of the 4th semester in a 2-year program. The timeframe is 1.5 years - one could assume you don't get a summer holiday but masters in general don't have as many contact hours - my MTeach only had around 10 hours of contact per week, primarily as you had to do most of the work yourself outside of class (e.g. readings, assignments).. the in-class stuff involved applying what you learnt through workshops and tutes. Obviously there are placements during each semester which go for a few weeks each and they require a full-time commitment.

[peartroll]

Thank you so much

Come to think of it, although I love maths, I probably can't see myself teaching it. My plan as of right now (though hugely susceptible to change) is to just do science (physics) then get qualified for gen science and teach from there. However, something very worrying is that a lot of science teachers ARE actually maths teachers (my school, for example, every science teacher is qualified to teach maths). With this said, where do you say I'm ranked in terms of employability? I don't want to force myself to teach maths just to edge out potential candidates. I've checked the website you've provided and a lot of the jobs are science + maths paired.

Seeing as you've done CRT placements, what is it like? I might not have a deep understanding of the role, but from year 7 to now, all my CRT have done no teaching at all, where they literally let our class do our own work until recess/lunch, so in most cases, is this true? Do they get paid like this? (unless I've mistaken CRT for substitute teachers).

Cheers

[Aaron]

My plan as of right now (though hugely susceptible to change) is to just do science (physics) then get qualified for gen science and teach from there.

You need two areas to be formally qualified in, unless you select a double-method (limited options - maths is one I think of off the top of my head). Be careful with this because your entry into the MTeach depends on you satisfying the method area requirements in that link.

Maths/Science is one of the most common combinations going around (just like English/Humanities is). Nearly all jobs that have Science are paired with Maths. That's not to say all are, but most are. Another common combination is Science/PE for obvious reasons. Strangely enough, Science/IT is also (somewhat) common. Again, the combinations you see are usually the result of somebody leaving who had an allotment with those subject areas and they are hiring to directly fill it without having to redo the timetable.

With this said, where do you say I'm ranked in terms of employability? I don't want to force myself to teach maths just to edge out potential candidates.

You significantly reduce your opportunities by not choosing maths and science. You may be able to find a job that's just Science on its own (or a combo of VCE Physics and Gen Science). As you have observed, Maths/Sci is one of the most common method combinations. I too had an issue with this as I am Maths/IT and not science trained so that makes me ineligible for any of those jobs. The right opportunity will present itself - if you are that certain you don't want to teach maths, then I'd advise you not to choose maths. Having maths as a method area also means you are eligible to teach VCE maths and alot of maths jobs have a requirement of an ability to teach it. Private school ads will state whether its required but government schools won't give you that courtesy (personal experience lol)

Seeing as you've done CRT placements, what is it like?

The daily organiser calls you at 7-7:30am asking if you can come in and it's a matter of 'I can' or 'I can't'. You rock up 10 mins before the first lesson and your day begins. Once the final bell rings, you leave. There's no guarantee that you'll be called. CRTs get paid a casual rate as you get no benefits - I think in the govt system it's around 60ish an hour with a cap of 6 or 7 hours pay for a full day. Essentially the CRTs we get at my school come in, have to read instructions prior to the lesson and execute those instructions. Once they finish, they leave a brief report for the teacher absent about how they went, where they got up to etc..... No marking, no management beyond that lesson, no worries. It's good if you can guarantee yourself work on a regular basis but like I said - you are usually rung up on the same day they want you to come in so you have to be waiting by your phone to see if you're going to work today or not. The aim is to staff classes with qualified CRTs but this is nearly impossible to achieve - if the CRT is comfortable and qualified then they can assist with work but they aren't expected to actually teach content.