ATAR Notes: Forum

VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: Sine on August 21, 2019, 12:50:58 pm

Title: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Sine on August 21, 2019, 12:50:58 pm
How would you change VCE??


Question from the HSC thread
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Lear on August 21, 2019, 01:37:09 pm
No internal assessments. Two exams per year one at the end of first semester and one at the end of the second. Removes the often confusion aspect of scaling internal SACs. I believe this was the system a while back.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: whys on August 21, 2019, 01:42:54 pm
1. I don't think it's fair that some students are limited by the school they go to. Everyone should have a level ground in the VCE. Schools ranked in the bottom half of the state usually will not have the same resources or ability to extend their students in the same way the schools in the top half can. The quality of education should be the same for everyone to give them a fair chance in succeeding in their own VCE journeys, rather than being penalised for going to a certain school. This doesn't mean that you can't achieve your goal ATAR if you go to a lower-ranked school, it's just that everyone realistically should be given the same quality of education.

2. It would be nice if subjects such as spesh and languages didn't scale as much as they do. I completely understand why they scale, and I'm not saying they shouldn't scale above 50, however, if you take someone doing 'easier' subjects then it's usually difficult for them to achieve as high of an ATAR. This also applies the other way around: people doing subjects just for the sake of scaling. I understand the scaling system is in place to ensure everyone has an almost equal chance through taking into consideration how hard it is rank up. But I wish there was an alternative to this that wouldn't be so hard on certain subjects (e.g. subjects that scale down by 7-10). I understand this is a contentious topic but it's just something I'd like to bring up that I think can be improved, although I'm not sure how.
Title: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Lear on August 21, 2019, 02:48:49 pm
1. I don't think it's fair that some students are limited by the school they go to. Everyone should have a level ground in the VCE. Schools ranked in the bottom half of the state usually will not have the same resources or ability to extend their students in the same way the schools in the top half can. The quality of education should be the same for everyone to give them a fair chance in succeeding in their own VCE journeys, rather than being penalised for going to a certain school. This doesn't mean that you can't achieve your goal ATAR if you go to a lower-ranked school, it's just that everyone realistically should be given the same quality of education.

1. How do you suggest this happens? There’s quite a few variables such as whether it’s a private school or not, the location of the school, the funding received by the school dependent on numbers, the funding that may be received by the school by parents, incoming money from fundraisers,  the use of that money by the school, the variability in general teacher competence. Also how do you measure if such a change has been successful?


I absolutely agree that there is a stupidly high advantage that people have going to selective schools or private schools or even public schools in high SES areas. However, it’s an issue that is not unique to education and one with no ‘easy’ fix.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Ionic Doc on August 21, 2019, 02:51:14 pm
1. How do you suggest this happens? There’s quite a few variables such as whether it’s a private school or not, the location of the school, the funding received by the school dependent on numbers, the funding that may be received by the school by parents, incoming money from fundraisers,  the use of that money by the school, the variability in general teacher competence. Also how do you measure if such a change has been successful?


I absolutely agree that there is a stupidly high advantage that people have going to selective schools or private schools or even public schools in high SES areas. However, it’s an issue that is not unique to education and one with no ‘easy’ fix.

i don't see anything wrong with students who got to a selective school. Like they've obviously worked hard to get to where they are and show that they are actually passionate about learning.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: DrDusk on August 21, 2019, 03:00:53 pm
I absolutely agree that there is a stupidly high advantage that people have going to selective schools or private schools or even public schools in high SES areas. However, it’s an issue that is not unique to education and one with no ‘easy’ fix.

A common misconception imo. Students from these selective schools were perform just as well being placed in a lower rank school, if not almost as well. It's not the school which makes a student great, but rather the students which make the school great.

The only such place of advantage would be a private school where they have the money to be able to afford better teachers...
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Lear on August 21, 2019, 03:10:04 pm

A common misconception imo. Students from these selective schools were perform just as well being placed in a lower rank school, if not almost as well. It's not the school which makes a student great, but rather the students which make the school great.

Have a look at some of the most competitive courses for entry. I can only speak for Medicine personally but i’m sure this is the case in other courses.

Very very few students are from your typical public school (I.e a lower ranked school) whereas, in my experience, almost 90% of the students in my course either went to a selective school or private school. Why is the case? Surely the overwhelming majority of people who have the capacity to be competitive enough to enter such courses didn’t up being in a selective or private school? Why aren’t we seeing more students from lower rank schools?
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Remy33 on August 21, 2019, 03:55:08 pm
1. I don't think it's fair that some students are limited by the school they go to. Everyone should have a level ground in the VCE. Schools ranked in the bottom half of the state usually will not have the same resources or ability to extend their students in the same way the schools in the top half can. The quality of education should be the same for everyone to give them a fair chance in succeeding in their own VCE journeys, rather than being penalised for going to a certain school. This doesn't mean that you can't achieve your goal ATAR if you go to a lower-ranked school, it's just that everyone realistically should be given the same quality of education.

This problem isn't unique to VCE, you'll find this all over the world. Additionally, it's not just the fact that "good schools produce good students", good students are also naturally drawn to good schools. A lot of the times, it's not that the quality of education makes schools like MHS, Macrob, Scotch, etc have higher-scoring students, it's that these high-achievers are naturally more drawn to these schools.

A common misconception imo. Students from these selective schools were perform just as well being placed in a lower rank school, if not almost as well. It's not the school which makes a student great, but rather the students which make the school great.

The only such place of advantage would be a private school where they have the money to be able to afford better teachers...

I completely agree. People way too often like to use 'I go to a bad school' as an excuse for not doing well without reflecting on themselves.

Very very few students are from your typical public school (I.e a lower ranked school) whereas, in my experience, almost 90% of the students in my course either went to a selective school or private school. Why is the case? Surely the overwhelming majority of people who have the capacity to be competitive enough to enter such courses didn’t up being in a selective or private school? Why aren’t we seeing more students from lower rank schools?

Speaking from someone who goes to a public school in regional VIC ranked in the bottom 30 schools in the state: it's not that people from 'lower ranked schools' can't do well due to the quality of education they receive. There are several reasons, from what I've seen people usually see no point in doing well.

The highest ATAR my school ever saw was a 91, the girl who got it received first-round offer to Commerce at Melbourne but she then swapped her preferences and ended up studying business at ACU. There are many, many other examples of people from my school, as well as surrounding schools, who get good results but end up going to less 'prestigious' universities or courses (or some who don't go to uni at all), because they simply don't want to.

-----

As someone who has been at one of these disadvantaged / underperforming / underrepresented public schools since year 7, I am so sick of people who treats students from schools like mine as poor victims of a heinously unequal education system. And the people at schools like mine who whine endlessly that they could "do so much better" if only they went to a better school needs to reflect on their own attitudes first.

-----

As for what I would change --- fuck subject grouping restrictions. ;D
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: DrDusk on August 21, 2019, 04:22:58 pm
Have a look at some of the most competitive courses for entry. I can only speak for Medicine personally but i’m sure this is the case in other courses.

Very very few students are from your typical public school (I.e a lower ranked school) whereas, in my experience, almost 90% of the students in my course either went to a selective school or private school. Why is the case? Surely the overwhelming majority of people who have the capacity to be competitive enough to enter such courses didn’t up being in a selective or private school? Why aren’t we seeing more students from lower rank schools?

Lower ranking schools have hardly any people who are serious about their study, and this is coming from NSW which tends to be more competitive than VIC. There are still a minority though who do really well even in 300+ ranked schools and this is because they work hard. Selective schools have their fair share of crap teachers, there's not too much of a difference in teacher quality between normal schools and selective schools(within reason). There is however when it comes to private schools..
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: PhoenixxFire on August 21, 2019, 05:06:50 pm
A common misconception imo. Students from these selective schools were perform just as well being placed in a lower rank school, if not almost as well. It's not the school which makes a student great, but rather the students which make the school great.

The only such place of advantage would be a private school where they have the money to be able to afford better teachers...
It's actually neither of these things. It's all about money. SES status has a massive influence on atar. Students from rich families are obviously more likely to go to private schools (and are also over represented in select entry schools). It's not necessarily that going to a private or select entry schools will mean you get a higher atar (although it makes it easier), it's that the people who go to those school tend to have a high SES status, and people will a high SES status, on average, get higher atars.

This is an old article but talks about it a bit. According to a quote in it (the link to the original source seems to be broken), high SES students were performing around the same level as low SES students in year nine but went on to get atars 10 points higher (on average).
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: DrDusk on August 21, 2019, 05:28:58 pm
It's actually neither of these things. It's all about money. SES status has a massive influence on atar. Students from rich families are obviously more likely to go to private schools (and are also over represented in select entry schools). It's not necessarily that going to a private or select entry schools will mean you get a higher atar (although it makes it easier), it's that the people who go to those school tend to have a high SES status, and people will a high SES status, on average, get higher atars.

This is an old article but talks about it a bit. According to a quote in it (the link to the original source seems to be broken), high SES students were performing around the same level as low SES students in year nine but went on to get atars 10 points higher (on average).

Yes definitely because usually the importance of study and doing well in high school is more emphasized in families of higher SES. However not everyone in selective schools is of high SES, a lot of them also tend to be from an average SES. However it does not disprove the point that I made and which you highlighted.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Calebark on August 21, 2019, 06:12:02 pm
Not everybody from a selective school comes from a wealthy background. However we can't deny that, at least in Victoria, the majority of them do. It'd be nice to bridge this gap.

Quote from: My School Fact Sheet — Guide to understanding ICSEA Values
The Index of Community Socio-educational Advantage (ICSEA) is a scale of socio-educational advantage that is computed for each school [...] ICSEA values are calculated on a scale which has a median of 1000 and a standard deviation of 100. ICSEA values typically range from approximately 500 (representing extremely educationally disadvantaged backgrounds) to about 1300 (representing schools with students with very educationally advantaged backgrounds). ACARA calculates an ICSEA value for all schools for which sufficient aggregate-level data is available.
source for data

ICSEA Values of VCE Selective Schools + distribution of parental wealth (sorted into quartiles)

Melbourne High School:

(https://i.imgur.com/j9RvBl9.png)

MacRobertson Girls High School:

(https://i.imgur.com/sq3B4xH.png)

Nossal High School:

(https://i.imgur.com/WOAXvnD.png)

Suzanne Cory High School:

(https://i.imgur.com/TXHY7xa.png)
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Bri MT on August 21, 2019, 06:13:57 pm
Yes definitely because usually the importance of study and doing well in high school is more emphasized in families of higher SES. However not everyone in selective schools is of high SES, a lot of them also tend to be from an average SES. However it does not disprove the point that I made and which you highlighted.

It would not surprise me if the importance of education is emphasised more in higher SES families but I would suggest that that's unlikely to be the only or main factor advantaging high SES students. There certainly are impacts beyond just 'work ethic' for example, at my (disadvantaged) school, specialist maths and English Language were not offered as subjects. I wasn't allowed to study spec at all & had to study eng lang by distance ed where I received minimal feedback. You may not be aware of how vce scaling works, but specialist is the 'hard' maths and is one of the few subjects that can scale above 50. The only other subjects that can scale above 50 are languages and I had to discontinue the language I was studying due to a timetable clash with biology. Due to this, even if I had received perfect scores in all of my subjects, it's unlikely that I would have received a 99.95 ATAR.

As to what I'd change about VCE - I'd like there to be no subjects scaling above 50 and less emphasis on ranking.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Aaron on August 21, 2019, 06:17:11 pm
Focusing on just the idea of learning and exploration, rather than making VCE a high-stakes competition where scaling, ranks, scores are dominant in students' minds.

Scaling hinders student choice and ability to explore career paths - given during Year 12 we expect students to choose a post-school pathway (e.g. specific university course).

In general, I absolutely hate the VCE system overall. I completely understand that we need a way to rank all students in the state and scaling provides equity across all subjects albeit 'easy' and 'hard', but unfortunately this also has negative consequences.

I also feel that exams promote the idea of rote learning rather than authentic learning experiences. Remembering a definition for example - does this help students and their learning and why? What value does asking for the definition (on its own) with 1-2 marks attached, have? Exams to focus on the practical application of their subject discipline/area. What alternatives could there be in place of exams? Could students demonstrate an understanding of what they've learnt without having to go through a high-stakes one-time written exam where it determines quite a bit..?

You have to at least query what negative impacts the competitiveness and obsession with numbers, has... you don't have to look far to see the impact of the "numbers game". Just go have a look at the Victorian Technical Score Discussion board.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: ashmi on August 21, 2019, 06:25:44 pm
It would not surprise me if the importance of education is emphasised more in higher SES families but I would suggest that that's unlikely to be the only or main factor advantaging high SES students. There certainly are impacts beyond just 'work ethic' for example, at my (disadvantaged) school, specialist maths and English Language were not offered as subjects. I wasn't allowed to study spec at all & had to study eng lang by distance ed where I received minimal feedback. You may not be aware of how vce scaling works, but specialist is the 'hard' maths and is one of the few subjects that can scale above 50. The only other subjects that can scale above 50 are languages and I had to discontinue the language I was studying due to a timetable clash with biology. Due to this, even if I had received perfect scores in all of my subjects, it's unlikely that I would have received a 99.95 ATAR.

As to what I'd change about VCE - I'd like there to be no subjects scaling above 50 and less emphasis on ranking.

Absolutely agree with this. Yes, some subjects are harder than others such as Specialist and Further, however, subjects should not scale past a 50. It's just unfair in the end, especially to other low scaling subjects. It's already hard enough to get a 50 in some subjects, but letting certain subjects scale above 50 just because of how challenging it really does show how unbalanced the VCE system really is. We are all just playing a game of "number cat and mouse" and really the ideas of ranking and scaling are consuming us all slowly were in the end, most will struggle to enjoy the experience of learning.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: whys on August 21, 2019, 06:53:06 pm
As to what I'd change about VCE - I'd like there to be no subjects scaling above 50 and less emphasis on ranking.

YES. This. I personally don't think it is fair that students who do subjects that scale above 50 usually get the 99.95's. I couldn't get a 99.95 even with a raw 50 in all my subjects according to data from previous years because none scale well above 50 (methods could scale to 51, but still not equal to a 99.95).

1. How do you suggest this happens? There’s quite a few variables such as whether it’s a private school or not, the location of the school, the funding received by the school dependent on numbers, the funding that may be received by the school by parents, incoming money from fundraisers,  the use of that money by the school, the variability in general teacher competence. Also how do you measure if such a change has been successful?


I absolutely agree that there is a stupidly high advantage that people have going to selective schools or private schools or even public schools in high SES areas. However, it’s an issue that is not unique to education and one with no ‘easy’ fix.

I agree that it's mostly the students that make the school great, not the school that makes the students great. If you put a bunch of above-average students all together in one school, how can you not expect them to perform above-average? However, this isn't to say the school doesn't help at all, because it does. As for how it could happen... I don't know. That's why it's so difficult to create a flawless schooling system - there isn't one. So many factors come into play here such as the ones you mentioned. I think teacher competence is a big one though. At my old school, I was never challenged with what we learnt and therefore I found school very easy. However, it is probably improvable through things like hiring more competent teachers (my humanities teacher in year 8 basically let us do whatever we wanted to in class and there was barely ever a focus on learning) and helping the school direct where the funding goes, etc. I'm sure schools could improve in a multitude of ways. This would take a long time, but it is achievable to an extent. Obviously, you can't expect every student to excel academically. People are good at different things, whether it be music, sport or dance. To measure something like this you would not only need to look at the overall average study scores/ATAR of the school, but also the other things the students achieve (sporting scholarships? I'm not sure what else there is - but I'm sure there's plenty).

I hope I didn't portray this as something that can be fixed overnight, but I wanted to highlight the issue simply because of its prevalence. There probably isn't a country out there without this problem (save Finland probably 8)). SES status is also a big contributor; that's undeniable. I just hope the gap can somehow be closed over time.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: DrDusk on August 21, 2019, 07:26:44 pm
YES. This. I personally don't think it is fair that students who do subjects that scale above 50 usually get the 99.95's. I couldn't get a 99.95 even with a raw 50 in all my subjects according to data from previous years because none scale well above 50 (methods could scale to 51, but still not equal to a 99.95).

Can I ask, what is this whole thing with subjects scaling over 50 or something?
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Sine on August 21, 2019, 07:29:28 pm
YES. This. I personally don't think it is fair that students who do subjects that scale above 50 usually get the 99.95's. I couldn't get a 99.95 even with a raw 50 in all my subjects according to data from previous years because none scale well above 50 (methods could scale to 51, but still not equal to a 99.95).
You may not be aware of how vce scaling works, but specialist is the 'hard' maths and is one of the few subjects that can scale above 50. The only other subjects that can scale above 50 are languages and I had to discontinue the language I was studying due to a timetable clash with biology. Due to this, even if I had received perfect scores in all of my subjects, it's unlikely that I would have received a 99.95 ATAR.

As to what I'd change about VCE - I'd like there to be no subjects scaling above 50 and less emphasis on ranking.
Absolutely agree with this. Yes, some subjects are harder than others such as Specialist and Further, however, subjects should not scale past a 50. It's just unfair in the end, especially to other low scaling subjects. It's already hard enough to get a 50 in some subjects, but letting certain subjects scale above 50 just because of how challenging it really does show how unbalanced the VCE system really is. We are all just playing a game of "number cat and mouse" and really the ideas of ranking and scaling are consuming us all slowly were in the end, most will struggle to enjoy the experience of learning.


As someone who benefitted from scaling over 50 (although I think if they had a cap I don't think it would change my ATAR as other students aggregates would drop too) on face value, these comments make sense. Students shouldn't have different scoring potentials based purely on subject choices/interests.

However, I do think a few arguments can be made why scaling over 50 is necessary and I don't think it is fair to artificially cap it that "low" (scaling is capped at 55 though)
1. Actually differentiates students in that cohort. E.g if Scaling was capped at 50 students with a 38-39 in Specialist would receive the same scaled score as those who get a raw 50. Whilst I do believe the actual mathematical ability in those within the range of 40-50 in a specialist is quite similar there would be no reward for people scoring better and less incentive to go for those higher raw scores.

2. If scaling was capped on 50 and those below raw 50 couldn't get a 50 then it isn't a fair comparison between subjects. The scalings have been mathematically calculated so by having the same rules it is theoretically fair. Something to note is that Specialist and many languages don't magically scale over 50 - e.g. Other subjects like Chemistry or History all have the potential to scale over but the cohort dictates that they don't. I did say that scaling is capped at 55 so perhaps it could be worse if there were no restrictions.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: whys on August 21, 2019, 07:49:49 pm
Focusing on just the idea of learning and exploration, rather than making VCE a high-stakes competition where scaling, ranks, scores are dominant in students' minds.

I also feel that exams promote the idea of rote learning rather than authentic learning experiences. Remembering a definition for example - does this help students and their learning and why? What value does asking for the definition (on its own) with 1-2 marks attached, have? Exams to focus on the practical application of their subject discipline/area.

You have to at least query what negative impacts the competitiveness and obsession with numbers, has... you don't have to look far to see the impact of the "numbers game". Just go have a look at the Victorian Technical Score Discussion board.

I also couldn't agree more. Like, if you actually look back upon your schooling, and consider what you've learnt, I know a lot of past school students will say they learnt how to answer VCAA questions, rather than deeply understanding the knowledge presented to them. As I said earlier, and as is said in the HSC equivalent of this thread, Finland does this job quite well with no standardised testing. I think it's important to foster a love for learning rather than fussing over sac marks. Not like the VCE system will change anytime soon, but it's interesting to see how else it can be improved.

As with scaling, I can see both sides of the argument and can understand why scaling is necessary. But I am also a firm believer that students' ATARs shouldn't be limited by their subject choices, and this is something scaling makes inevitable, unfortunately. It would be difficult to create a scaling system that caters to both sides of the issue, especially since a scaling cap is already in place; there's not much else that can be done regarding this.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Sine on August 21, 2019, 10:10:04 pm
I would get rid of the restriction of only a maximum of 6 subjects counting towards the aggregate and taking only 10% of the two lowest scores.

I think we should encourage students to study as much as they want to and capping the max number of ATAR-contributing subjects at 6 discourages students from exploring more fields of study.

The 10% increment of bottom two is ridiculous. Students don’t put in only 10% of the effort. All these rules just restrict people who want to explore more interests and potential pathways because it is also important to maximise your score. But with the current system, it punishes students who want to have a wider range of knowledge.

Here’s my ‘fix’:

Students should be allowed to study any number of subjects they like, and all of them could contribute (FULLY) towards the ATAR.

However, to stop students from doing a large number of subjects for the sake of getting a higher aggregate (cos theoretically, if you did more subjects and all count towards the ATAR, you’d be more likely to get a higher aggregate even if you performed poorly in all of them), scores would only count if they achieve a certain threshold, for example, raw 25 or something.

That way, students are encouraged to both explore all areas of interest, and have the incentive to work hard as otherwise their scores won’t count.

Would love to hear what people think of this!
It would be so unhealthy for the students if every subject counted towards your ATAR with no cap on the number of subjects. Even now you have got students doing 9 subjects because they are scared of underperformance hurting them so they try to give themselves a bit of leeway but if there was no cap I wouldn't be surprised if some students just started loading up on scores in early high school years. Also since being average in two subjects (2 x 30) is better than perfecting one (50) it would probably be smarter to have an average understanding in heaps of subjects in a given year. Especially since the time it takes to get to a SS of 30 is much less than half the time required for a 50.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: PhoenixxFire on August 22, 2019, 01:20:23 am
With respect, I don’t think it’s right to simply brush aside the amount of effort, hard work, perseverance of high achievers at those schools with “oh they’re rich, it’s easier for them”. It’s a very one-dimensional way of looking at this very complicated issue. There are many, many more important aspects such as family background, culture, expectations, peer influences, and personal beliefs and preferences which affect someone’s ATAR to a much higher extent than money.

Saying that income has correlation to high ATAR isn’t wrong but it’s not looking at the full picture. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. Just some food for thought.
I'm not trying to brush that aside. No one gets high scores easily, but everyone who gets high scores has to work very hard. Family background, culture, expectations, peer influences, and personal beliefs and preferences affect everyone, not just high ses students, however the research shows that the major influence on atar is SES status, not any of these other factors (there has been studies on this for decades, and the influence of ses on education attainment is widely accepted in sociology), to say that these other factors affect atar to a higher extent than ses (ses status is not just money) is simply not true, and this has been shown in studies for a long time (although this is an interesting article on other factors that affect education attainment within socioeconomic bands, if you're interested).

I'm not saying that every single person who comes from a high ses background will have an easier time of vce than those who come from a low ses background, but I am saying that on average ses status predicts how well students do in vce. On average, students from high SES backgrounds are at an advantage compared to those from low SES background. That is a fact supported by many years of studies and not something that can simply be ignored in favour of saying that everyone who does well works hard (although interestingly, the effect is not the same when it comes to tertiary study).

I would get rid of the restriction of only a maximum of 6 subjects counting towards the aggregate and taking only 10% of the two lowest scores.

I think we should encourage students to study as much as they want to and capping the max number of ATAR-contributing subjects at 6 discourages students from exploring more fields of study.

The 10% increment of bottom two is ridiculous. Students don’t put in only 10% of the effort. All these rules just restrict people who want to explore more interests and potential pathways because it is also important to maximise your score. But with the current system, it punishes students who want to have a wider range of knowledge.

Here’s my ‘fix’:

Students should be allowed to study any number of subjects they like, and all of them could contribute (FULLY) towards the ATAR.

However, to stop students from doing a large number of subjects for the sake of getting a higher aggregate (cos theoretically, if you did more subjects and all count towards the ATAR, you’d be more likely to get a higher aggregate even if you performed poorly in all of them), scores would only count if they achieve a certain threshold, for example, raw 25 or something.

That way, students are encouraged to both explore all areas of interest, and have the incentive to work hard as otherwise their scores won’t count.

Would love to hear what people think of this!
Agree with sine about this, don't think it would be healthy for students. At my high school anyone can do any electives, which meant I got to continue studying a variety of subjects I was interested in, without the pressure of having to try and get a good score in them (there was also no study required outside of class which means more time to study for subjects you get a score for, although I did spend a fair bit of time with my fishies anyway). I think this is a much better system than doing more vce subjects, although it would require a bit of a change in the education system to work at most schools (e.g. allowing students to do vce subjects earlier so they have room in their timetable for electives during vce).
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: strawberries on August 22, 2019, 02:48:58 am
- controversial but no scaling at all. I get why it exists - every subject should be treated equally. students who are good at subjects like spec and languages will pick them anyway.

- remove english from top 4. everyone has to do english, but it doesn't have to be top 4.

- remove subjects like EAL and 'second language' subjects (like chinese second language - just have Chinese as a whole instead for eg). yes it may seem unfair for people who come from the background but in real life they won't split you by background vs background speakers. also European languages don't split into first/second languages even though there are several people from such European backgrounds (eg French, German, Italian) so why split it for like Chinese/Korean etc.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: LaurenMarySullivan on September 16, 2019, 06:31:19 pm
Would be pretty sweet if VCE/VCAA didn't ruin my mental state and self-esteem so they can make me compete against all of my friends and the remainder of the state
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: alexthenerd on September 17, 2019, 05:10:39 pm
100% get english out of the top four. i don’t think it’s fair for people who are better at maths/sciences to be forced to have one of their worst subjects in their top four whilst students who are good at english get one of their higher subjects in their top four.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: kjistsehrtot on September 17, 2019, 06:17:04 pm
as kind of off topic as it is, i feel like the government should assign career counsellors to each school. some cases at my school were that, for example, a psychology teacher is pushing a student to do psychology, when they're interested in anything but science. another case could be mine, where i thought i could do spesh and german because my career counsellor just regurgitated what i said to them, and didnt challenge me to think about other pathways. i thought id say this because ive heard that some people go halfway through a 3/4 and end up dropping it because it wasnt what they were expecting, it was too hard, it was too boring, etc. i feel like with the right guidance we wont have people having constant mental breakdowns over subjects they regret choosing. idk this went a bit off topic imo sorry
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: blueycan on September 18, 2019, 12:20:01 pm
as kind of off topic as it is, i feel like the government should assign career counsellors to each school. some cases at my school were that, for example, a psychology teacher is pushing a student to do psychology, when they're interested in anything but science. another case could be mine, where i thought i could do spesh and german because my career counsellor just regurgitated what i said to them, and didnt challenge me to think about other pathways. i thought id say this because ive heard that some people go halfway through a 3/4 and end up dropping it because it wasnt what they were expecting, it was too hard, it was too boring, etc. i feel like with the right guidance we wont have people having constant mental breakdowns over subjects they regret choosing. idk this went a bit off topic imo sorry
Like a neutral, external careers counsellor? That seems like a really beneficial idea.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: kjistsehrtot on September 18, 2019, 06:46:41 pm
Like a neutral, external careers counsellor? That seems like a really beneficial idea.

yes exactly!!
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Geoo on September 18, 2019, 06:55:21 pm
Bit late to the party, but here we go...
I'd remove having to complete 16 units as a requirement.

I think everyone should do four subjects or more, however I think it should be based on 3/4 units, not a combined total.

Also english shouldn't be in the top four.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Sine on September 18, 2019, 08:58:44 pm
100% get english out of the top four. i don’t think it’s fair for people who are better at maths/sciences to be forced to have one of their worst subjects in their top four whilst students who are good at english get one of their higher subjects in their top four.
Bit late to the party, but here we go...
I'd remove having to complete 16 units as a requirement.

I think everyone should do four subjects or more, however I think it should be based on 3/4 units, not a combined total.

Also english shouldn't be in the top four.

Devil's Advocate: removing English from the top 4 (but keeping compulsory) sends the message to students that VCAA cares about English but don't care that much.

Personally I think it should be compulsory but not top 4, (unless someone wants to make a math compulsory + top 4 but it would be unfair of having 50% of your top 4 chosen by someone else).

So, in that case, Eng/Math should be compulsory but don't have to be top 4.

Also, some more reasoning for Eng not being top 4 is that it is probably the only subject where your teacher is arguably the most important factor. For stuff like math, you don't necessarily even need a teacher and can learn via a textbook/internet.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Geoo on September 18, 2019, 09:07:51 pm
Devil's Advocate: removing English from the top 4 (but keeping compulsory) sends the message to students that VCAA cares about English but don't care that much.

Personally I think it should be compulsory but not top 4, (unless someone wants to make a math compulsory + top 4 but it would be unfair of having 50% of your top 4 chosen by someone else).

So, in that case, Eng/Math should be compulsory but don't have to be top 4.

Also, some more reasoning for Eng not being top 4 is that it is probably the only subject where your teacher is arguably the most important factor. For stuff like math, you don't necessarily even need a teacher and can learn via a textbook/internet.

100% agree with you there!
I do agree the English should remain compulsive it shouldn't be top four.
I mean we can drop maths, so why does need a push?
To keep people motivated as I think with a 10% increase it would make students care less about the subject and not put to much time, maybe change it to counting for a higher percentage? like 50% or 30% Just a thought.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: PhoenixxFire on September 18, 2019, 09:30:58 pm
I wish there was an english subject that was on english skills for science. I'm never going to need to know how to write a creative piece or analyse a text, but I wish I'd been taught how to actually write a scientific report when I was in high school. The poster that's now made in all VCE science classes feels like primary school work in comparison, and I don't really think there's enough time for it to be taught in science class anyway. Getting to uni and being expected to be able to write a report every second week without ever having been taught how to reference properly before was unpleasant (not so much for the people who did IB and had already done been doing it for years).
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: misanthropic.socialite on January 27, 2020, 08:27:03 pm
Please no English in top 4. It's the worst to study for as it's employment prospects are terrible. That's pretty much why the Asian 5 is so popular because of the practicality of the subjects and hence the stronger cohorts. VCE is a shit system but much better than Asian countries for example. My parents didn't even get a choice of Maths: in Taiwan, Further, Methods and Spec are all squashed into one subject. And the Sciences (all three main ones) and the national language AND English are all mandatory. Sure the system is biased towards those that attend elite selective schools and private schools and magnet public schools, but that's pretty much every country as a high school certificate is not even a qualification, it's mandatory to even be considered in the real world.

Scaling is a necessary evil too. VCE is a welcome to the real world: it sucks, but have you're gonna love it! (Monica Geller from Friends  ;D )
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: Sine on January 27, 2020, 08:46:56 pm
Please no English in top 4. It's the worst to study for as it's employment prospects are terrible. That's pretty much why the Asian 5 is so popular because of the practicality of the subjects and hence the stronger cohorts. VCE is a shit system but much better than Asian countries for example. My parents didn't even get a choice of Maths: in Taiwan, Further, Methods and Spec are all squashed into one subject. And the Sciences (all three main ones) and the national language AND English are all mandatory. Sure the system is biased towards those that attend elite selective schools and private schools and magnet public schools, but that's pretty much every country as a high school certificate is not even a qualification, it's mandatory to even be considered in the real world.

Scaling is a necessary evil too. VCE is a welcome to the real world: it sucks, but have you're gonna love it! (Monica Geller from Friends  ;D )
none of the VCE subjects are actually employable (outside of tutoring) so not sure why you single out English? Also I wouldn't say scaling is evil ahaha it is one of the fairest aspects of VCE  :)

why do you think VCE is a "shit" system?

Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: KatherineGale on January 27, 2020, 08:52:36 pm
I know this sounds really silly, but I wish that everyone had the opportunity during year 12 to take units from a uni course you're interested in, that can then go towards that course as recognition of prior learning. As someone who has known what she has wanted to do for years, I always wished that they had more options for people who have made up their mind. There's VCE, VCAL and VET, but if I could have forgone VCE and the ATAR system, taken two units (say I took two general health units that could be used in multiple degrees across the year), and be judged on my performance on that to decide if I get into the course I want or not. Like, if you want to get into medicine, and you need chemistry from VCE, instead take a chemistry bridging course and then do a level one unit for chemistry instead. I know they have a version of this, but it's so hard to get into, and it's only in particular areas of study, rather than something that everyone can have a chance at.

I'm sure there are a lot of issues with this that I haven't considered, but it still would've been nice :)
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: misanthropic.socialite on January 27, 2020, 09:00:37 pm
none of the VCE subjects are actually employable (outside of tutoring) so not sure why you single out English? Also I wouldn't say scaling is evil ahaha it is one of the fairest aspects of VCE  :)

why do you think VCE is a "shit" system?

A fancy moderator replied to my post. I'm honored  :P

I guess my mantra is what's been repeated to me by all my relatives lately as I'm turning 18: "mAtH oR scIENce or You'RE BROke anD a FAILure".

All education systems are shit in their design to perpetuate inequality and all that. But VCE is still pretty good compared to other countries.
Title: Re: How would you change VCE?
Post by: J_Rho on January 28, 2020, 09:32:15 am
English should be compulsory but not in your top 4