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Author Topic: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)  (Read 3579 times)  Share 

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swico

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Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« on: September 25, 2019, 04:06:35 am »
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Hi all, sorry if this isn't posted in the right place, please move it if it isn't. I am really thinking about postgraduate studies and was wondering if anyone is doing a PhD here to give me some insight on what it's like. I am studying mathematics in undergraduate right now and am thinking about possibly doing a PhD in mathematics or other related fields such as economics or business. I know a PhD is a must to have a career as an academic and heard you do a lot of research. I am thinking of doing my PhD in the USA as I heard it is more prestigious and that probably impacts on your chances to find a good job.

What would I need to do to get accepted at these top schools? What is the admission process like? What is the lifestyle/work/research like? How is life as an academic? Will I be at an disadvantage if I do my PhD in Australia? I also heard that USA PhDs are much longer than in Australia, why is this?

I would appreciate any advice, thank you.

blyatman

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2019, 10:16:08 am »
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Hi all, sorry if this isn't posted in the right place, please move it if it isn't. I am really thinking about postgraduate studies and was wondering if anyone is doing a PhD here to give me some insight on what it's like. I am studying mathematics in undergraduate right now and am thinking about possibly doing a PhD in mathematics or other related fields such as economics or business. I know a PhD is a must to have a career as an academic and heard you do a lot of research. I am thinking of doing my PhD in the USA as I heard it is more prestigious and that probably impacts on your chances to find a good job.

What would I need to do to get accepted at these top schools? What is the admission process like? What is the lifestyle/work/research like? How is life as an academic? Will I be at an disadvantage if I do my PhD in Australia? I also heard that USA PhDs are much longer than in Australia, why is this?

I would appreciate any advice, thank you.

Here's my comprehensive answer. Hope this helps!

I was originally in a PhD program at USYD in engineering, before I decided to finish it as an MPhil. My main reason for downgrading was that I wanted to do a PhD in the US instead.

Later on, I got into the PhD program in the University of Texas, so I went over there to for that. However, in the end I realised that it wasn't what I wanted (for a variety of reasons which is another story), so I came back. I'm now finishing it as a Master's program through distance learning at Purdue University while working as an engineer here in Australia full-time. However, I definitely don't regret going over there to try it out, as it was definitely one of the highlights of my life.

PhD is entirely research-focused, and it's not for everyone. And yes, graduate programs in the US are second to none. Keep in mind that there is nowhere as much research in Australia as in the US - there is way more funding for researchers and academics in the US since Australia doesn't really prioritize research (all the money needs to go to coal right?). I've got a few Aussie friends who have PhD in math, some of whom graduated from Princeton, MIT, and Harvard. Two of them did their math PhD's in a finance-related field, which sounds similar to what you want. Many of them do want to come back to Aus to settle down, but there's just not much research opportunities here like over there. So naturally, it's easier to get a research opportunity in the US if you have a PhD from a US institution. It's also worth mentioning that in academics, your research supervisor is worth more than the institution you graduated from. Working under a very famous researcher at a mid-tier institution will do way more for your career than a no-name at Harvard. I should also add in that my friends who went at those top-tier colleges were all on the Australian IMO team, so they definitely weren't your average joe's. It's not easy to get into those, you really have to stand out in some way.

To get in to the US graduate programs, you need:
- Resume
- Academic Transcripts
- GRE (the graduate equivalent of the SAT)
- Specialist subject exams (only for science PhD's, not sure if this applies to math)
- Statement of purpose (2 pages)

The first 4 are straightforward. The Statement of Purpose is extremely important, as it essentially explains why you want to go to graduate school, why you want to go to THEIR institution, what type of research you plan to do, and under which professors you'd like to work with. This is very much different to Australian PhD's, where almost anyone with with a Distinction Average is able to get in. If you make the short list, you also might have to do Skype interviews with the professors who are looking for students. I'm not too sure about math, but in engineering, the research is all funded by grants. In Australia, you can just pick any research topic you feel like and go from there, regardless of how useless the topic is. In the US, projects are funded by government/industry grants who want something to be investigated. As a result, professors will pick students for a particular grant(s) they have. E.g. when I did my PhD in Texas, my project was funded by a NASA grant, where they wanted to investigate the icy plumes on Enceladus (one of Saturn's moons). A few of my PhD friends over there were also partnered with a few of the NASA teams and funded by NASA grants.

I would say that the admission process is pretty tough. The statement of purpose is extremely critical, and you need to be able to demonstrate that you're suited to the faculty they work with. That usually means that you need to have some research experience in undergrad in the particular field you're applying for, so that you can actually prove that this is where your interests lie. If your statement of purpose consists of a half-assed with the "I'm not sure what I want to do yet" attitude, chance are you won't get in since there will be other students who actually know what they want and with research experience that fits the role. However, it also depends on how prestigious the institution is. Needless to say, less prestigious institutions in the US are probably not as difficult to get into. I only applied for the top 10 aerospace programs and I ended up with 3 offers, but only one of them was for a PhD (the other 2 were Master's, which is not ideal since I wouldn't be funded and my tuition wouldn't be covered).

Lifestyle/work/research is pretty good - you're essentially starting a new life in a new country, so everything is fun and exciting. Life as an academic will depend on each person. I've already done my fair share of research, and while I enjoyed it at times, it's not something I want to build a career in. As my PhD friends can attest, research can be often be extremely dull where you don't get anywhere. There are also many researchers at universities who just publish bad quality papers one after the other in an effort to meet the quota, and don't accomplish anything their whole career.

The reason why US PhD's are longer than in Australia are because US PhD's (at least for engineering) require you to enter the Master's program first, where you take 2 years of coursework in your field of interest. During this time period, you are not officially in the PhD program yet, even though you might already be doing research for your PhD under your supervisor. You formally become a PhD student once you sit and pass the Qualifying exams (typically just called Quals), which essentially just test you on your understanding of your field. Comparing all of that to Australia, and it explains why US programs are so prestigious and of a much higher quality.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 11:02:40 am by blyatman »
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DrDusk

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2019, 08:28:02 pm »
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See this is interesting, why is it that admission into the top universities in The United States is much harder than the top universities in NSW. I mean our high school education is so much harder than the easy SAT's that they have to do over there, yet it's so much harder to get in. 

blyatman

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2019, 09:03:26 pm »
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See this is interesting, why is it that admission into the top universities in The United States is much harder than the top universities in NSW. I mean our high school education is so much harder than the easy SAT's that they have to do over there, yet it's so much harder to get in.
Yeh the SAT's are very easy, but unlike the Aus system, admission into a university isn't based solely off your academic performance. Things like extracirricular activities etc are very important, and universities place a lot of emphasis on that. Over here, it's 100% academic-based, so you can't really compare it directly like that. Over there, your SAT/GRE score is just one aspect of how well-rounded you are. As long as you satisfy the minimum requirements, then admissions will look at other things (kind of like getting a job - as long as the employer sees you have a degree, they'll start looking at other things). Hence, getting a perfect score in the SAT isn't going to guarantee you entry into any school you wish. A kid with a near perfect score but tons of extra-cirricular activities will always get picked over a kid with perfect SAT scores but with nothing else.

The kids that do get into MIT and the other top-tier schools generally have so much more than just academics on their CV, whereas most of the top students in Aus are 100% defined by their academics. Aside from olympians, most Aussie students have a hard time getting into the top US institutions since they don't have much else aside from their academics.

You also gotta keep in mind that the top schools in the US are EXTREMELY competitive. You're literally competing with the top students around the world. An ATAR of 99.95 is isn't worth much by itself, since it shows that the applicant is very one-dimensional. Over here, Aus students are only competing amongst themselves, so the competition is significantly less intense.
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DrDusk

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2019, 09:09:33 pm »
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Yeh the SAT's are very easy, but unlike the Aus system, admission into a university isn't based solely off your academic performance. Things like extracirricular activities etc are very important, and universities place a lot of emphasis on that. Over here, it's 100% academic-based, so you can't really compare it directly like that. Over there, your SAT/GRE score is just one aspect of how well-rounded you are. As long as you satisfy the minimum requirements, then admissions will look at other things (kind of like getting a job - as long as the employer sees you have a degree, they'll start looking at other things). Hence, getting a perfect score in the SAT isn't going to guarantee you entry into any school you wish. A kid with a near perfect score but tons of extra-cirricular activities will always get picked over a kid with perfect SAT scores but with nothing else.

The kids that do get into MIT and the other top-tier schools generally have so much more than just academics on their CV, whereas most of the top students in Aus are 100% defined by their academics. Aside from olympians, most Aussie students have a hard time getting into the top US institutions since they don't have much else aside from their academics.

You also gotta keep in mind that the top schools in the US are EXTREMELY competitive. You're literally competing with the top students around the world. An ATAR of 99.95 is isn't worth much by itself, since it shows that the applicant is very one-dimensional. Over here, Aus students are only competing amongst themselves, so the competition is significantly less intense.

Yeah but that's the thing I had a look at a lot of the SAT's and I can confidently say that if I had exams as easy as SAT's, I would probably have like 3 or 4 extra-curriculars as well. I just don't see how this kind of criteria for admission leads to a much stronger cohort of students(from the US, excluding international applicants) in the Ivy leagues. Like I bet if they were given subjects like Maths extension 2 here in NSW, then most wouldn't have the time to do extra-curriculars either.

blyatman

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 09:38:39 pm »
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Yeah but that's the thing I had a look at a lot of the SAT's and I can confidently say that if I had exams as easy as SAT's, I would probably have like 3 or 4 extra-curriculars as well. I just don't see how this kind of criteria for admission leads to a much stronger cohort of students(from the US, excluding international applicants) in the Ivy leagues. Like I bet if they were given subjects like Maths extension 2 here in NSW, then most wouldn't have the time to do extra-curriculars either.
It might not necessarily lead to a stronger cohort academically speaking, but that's not what they value. The US has a different approach to education. They don't place a huge emphasis on getting max marks in HS, which can be justified since most of the stuff we learn is pretty useless, and anything you do need in detail can be learnt in your degree. So I don't think it necessarily makes our 1st yrs stronger/smarter than their freshmen. Rather, they prefer students do extra-cirricular activities and have a more well-rounded education. It's the same reason behind most their undergrad degrees requiring students to take a certain amount of general electives outside of their stream. I would say that US college students are definitely much more innovative than Aussie ones, and it's a big reason why a cutting-edge technology is developed in the US.

There's also a huge difference in student's mindset between the 2 countries. Over in the US, everyone was constantly participating in societies, and a lot of people I met did weekly volunteer work (such as cleaning up the local river or something). The amount of college startups that they encourage is also pretty amazing. Compare that to our universities where everyone just wants to go home after class, or they might stick around for a society event to get free chocolate. Needless to say, the startup scene here is non-existent. I think all of that partly stems from the emphasis we place on the ATAR in high school, and that mindset sort of transitions over to uni. Aussie kids prioritizied academics above all else in high school, and a part of that sorta just naturally carries over to their uni life. This then carries over to the workforce, which I think is why there's not much innovation happening here. Those that are talented tend to move to the US to work at startups, since they feel stifled by the lack of opportunities/progress here.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 09:45:50 pm by blyatman »
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M.Phil. (Aerospace Engineering)
B.Eng. (Aerospace Engineering, Honours Class I)
B.Sc. (Adv. Mathematics, Adv. Physics)

blyatman

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2019, 09:59:53 pm »
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Thing is, it’s not nearly as simple as “3-4 extracurriculars” and a decent SAT score. I have friends applying for US schools with 99.7+ ATARs, perfect SAT scores, with dozens of extracurricular activities and stunning applications who still weren’t accepted. Taking part in a couple of sport teams or school bands as ‘extracurricular’ is almost negligible in terms of your application. Being a member of your school athletics team doesn’t mean anything, but getting first place in state/nationals competition does. Similarly, you’d also need impressive experience with leadership. Basically, it’s not just about the quantity of extracurriculars, but rather quality.

Source: my sister studies at Princeton and the amount of time she spent studying for the SAT was nothing compared to extracurricular activities
Agreed, though those small-scale extra-cirriculars are generally sufficient for most schools. I would be thinking more along the lines of participating in things like robotics tournaments etc if you were gunning for MIT (or Princeton as you mentioned). Either way, you're up against the best when it comes to those elite schools, so unless your an olympian, your grades aren't gonna cut it. Need something truly fascinating that makes you stand out from the rest of the crowd.

However, for graduate schools (which was the original focus of this thread), it's typically academically/research-focused. Any extracirriculars in those would typically need to be relevant to the PhD (e.g. winning first place in a robotics competition).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 10:06:05 pm by blyatman »
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M.Phil. (Aerospace Engineering)
B.Eng. (Aerospace Engineering, Honours Class I)
B.Sc. (Adv. Mathematics, Adv. Physics)

TrueTears

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2019, 01:41:02 pm »
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Hey there, glad to see you taking an interest in academia. I hope I can offer some valuable advice (the below will be for economics/business - finance, management etc).

I am currently doing a PhD in economics at MIT, I was also admitted to Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and others. Hopefully I can give you some insight.

First, the admissions process. Graduate admissions (for economics and Business disciplines such as finance etc) are VERY different from undergraduate and are borderline "impossible" to get in (for the top 10s), unless you are a super-star. Just to give you an idea, in my year, there were about 1000+ applicants for a class size of 10. Business schools are even more atrociously hard to get in at the top 10. In finance, MIT Sloan had about 1500+ applicants for 3 spots, that's a 0.2% chance of getting in. This is not to discourage you from trying, but just remember, do not only aim for the top 10, make sure you have "safety" schools, those ranked in the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. But, as I will discuss later on, prestige in academia matters, and when I say matter, I mean they matter alot, so doing a PhD at the top 10s such as Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Chicago, Yale, Princeton, etc make a huge difference.

Now, on to the actual admission process. First, is your academic transcript. Needless to say, you need to be stellar. Anything short of stellar and your chances are severely crippled. This means you need to be the University medalist, win unit prizes, scholarships, have close to a perfect GPA. Especially coming from Australia, you will be competing against the best of the best from across the globe (e.g., some are gold medalists in multiple IMOs). Having a stellar academic transcript is only the "baseline" requirement, it is a necessary condition but nowhere near a sufficient condition. Almost all successful applicants in the top 10s have amazing/out of this world academic transcripts. Second, the GRE/GMAT, you need an almost perfect GRE/GMAT to be even considered. Anything short of a close to perfect quantitative score on these tests and you will be thrown in the trash bin (unless you have spectacular connections, more on this later). Third, research experience. You need an abundance of research experience, try find RA positions. Try work with renowned professors in your field. Most importantly, try aim for publications in top journals (this is extremely, extremely, extremely hard), but if you can publish in decent journals (e.g., ABDC ranking A) before you apply, you will be a stand-out star. Certainly, not everyone has publications and it certainly isn't a necessary condition, but if you do, you will be noticed. I personally had 4 publications (two A* ranked, two A ranked) before applying. Fourth, your recommendation letters. This is perhaps the single most important part of the application. It is almost impossible to separate out applicants based on the previous points because everyone is so spectacular at the top end. Having incredible recommendations is crucial. So what makes an incredible recommendation letter? This is where connections come into play. Your recommendations letter write must be a renowned professor in the field, do not have an assistant professor or associate professor write your letter even if he can write a stellar letter. Connections are super important and unfortunately, at least in economics/Business, this is where Australia lacks behind. I am not saying the Professors here aren't "well-known" but when compared to the top 10, Australia academics are often "disregarded" as they unfortunately not recognized as being at the same level as the top institutions in the world. To "overcome" this hurdle, I highly suggest you search for RA positions in the US and work under top Professors for at least a semester so that you can build relationships with them and have them write your recommendation letters. This will be expensive, but consider it as a worthwhile investment, especially if you are aiming for top 10's. Fifth, your statement of purpose, to be brutally honest, this is the least important part of the application. Obviously write a good and proper statement of purpose, but if you are lacking in any of the previous criteria, your statement of purpose is unfortunately not going to be read.

In summary, to have a high chance of making past the admission process: 1) Close to perfect academic transcript (University medalist, prizes, scholarships, perfect GPA); 2) Close to perfect GRE/GMAT scores; 3) Publications; 4) Top tier recommendation letters by well-known Professors.

Second, what is doing a PhD at a top 10 actually like? Very different from Australia, and rightly so. The standard is light-years above that of Australia. Usually PhDs in USA are 5-6 years. First two years are coursework, after which you will have a qualifying exam. In econ/business, you will usually take the standard micro/macro sequence, as well as other sequences if you are interested; econometrics, labour etc. Will also take maths courses such as measure theory, topology, etc After the two years, you will be doing research. Again, the standards are drastically different from Australia (much much higher). Advisors are all top-tier world-renowned academics, top of their field, and the end product will usually be published in A** journals. Top 10s are just a league in its own, not a single faculty in Australia can compete with their research output. Funding at the top 10 is also insanely generous. Everyone is on a full scholarship with stipends ranging from 30-50k USD p.a.

Third, job market prospects. This is where the prestige factor comes in. If you wish to have a carer as an academic at the top 10-20. Unless your PhD is at a top 10, you will have almost a zero chance (barring exceptional circumstances, e.g., advisor is a Nobel Laureate etc) to make tenure at top 10-20s. Prestige matters a lot. The placement record at top 10s strongly dominates that of anywhere else in the world. This is a combination of research excellence, connections, politics, and inherent self-selection bias. If your aim is to work at a top 10-20, do not do your PhD in Australia or anywhere else. I would suggest that if you do not make it into a top 10 program, do not bother to do it at top 20-30s, unless academia is your dream job and you are willing to work at lower ranked institutions.

Fourth, assuming you do make it into the top 10 and do get tenure at a top 10-20, life as an academic is one of the best jobs, especially in econ/business. To give you an idea, most top 10 academics make around 500-600k usd p.a., lifestyle is great, you have plenty of time with family and friends, teach classes perhaps 2-3 times a week, and you can spend the rest of time anywhere you want (if you like to do research in the comfort of your own home, do so). Combine this with at least 3-4 months of vacation in a year, along with sabbaticals etc, a tenured professor at top 10-20 is one of the best jobs in the world when you consider pay vs time ratio. Obviously, the road to being one is extremely challenging and very few make it.

Finally, the advice above is for top 10s only, lower ranked institutions obviously have lower requirements, but at the same time, your job market prospects are lower, future career is more uncertain, and lower expected salary. Obviously, you could still turn out to be a star, it's just that your chances of doing so are much less.

Feel free to PM me if you have any more queries or just post in this thread.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 01:46:22 pm by TrueTears »
PhD @ MIT (Economics).

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blyatman

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2019, 02:13:29 pm »
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In summary, to have a high chance of making past the admission process: 1) Close to perfect academic transcript (University medalist, prizes, scholarships, perfect GPA); 2) Close to perfect GRE/GMAT scores; 3) Publications; 4) Top tier recommendation letters by well-known Professors.
I agree with most of what you've said, except for the GRE scores and the statement of purpose. Maybe it's different for economics, but the statement of purpose for engineering/science grad school is pretty important as you're explaining to the professors (who are reviewing your application) why they should select you for their particular project. Likewise, GRE scores usually just need to be above a certain minimum, and then they'll look at other things. I think the average quant score for MIT engineering was 167/170, and 162/170 for verbal, so you don't even need near-perfect scores to get in. Again, not sure how it works for economics so it might be different.

Also, there's many many good institutions in the US, and you don't necessarily need to get tenure in the top 10. Like, it'd be nice, but I don't think that should be the goal/basis of considering a PhD in the US. Those positions are the exception, and not the rule, and most people don't have the expectations of being the top 10-20 researchers in the world. The way you phrased it sounds like if you don't make it to that level, then it's not worth it lol.

Most of my friends with PhD's in math/engineering from the top 10 didn't have quite as stellar a resume as your requirements. They got good scores and we're on IMO and whatnot, but they didn't have multiple gold medals or anything. One of them went to Sloan for grad school, but did his undergrad in aerospace at usyd, didn't have any papers published, and wasn't an olympian or a university medallist. You definitely need to be bright and stand out from the crowd to get in, but you don't need to have a maxed out CV or have Einstein's credentials to get in lol.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 02:21:37 pm by blyatman »
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M.Phil. (Aerospace Engineering)
B.Eng. (Aerospace Engineering, Honours Class I)
B.Sc. (Adv. Mathematics, Adv. Physics)

TrueTears

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2019, 03:18:51 pm »
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I agree with most of what you've said, except for the GRE scores and the statement of purpose. Maybe it's different for economics, but the statement of purpose for engineering/science grad school is pretty important as you're explaining to the professors (who are reviewing your application) why they should select you for their particular project. Likewise, GRE scores usually just need to be above a certain minimum, and then they'll look at other things. I think the average quant score for MIT engineering was 167/170, and 162/170 for verbal, so you don't even need near-perfect scores to get in. Again, not sure how it works for economics so it might be different.
Yeah, my post was only directed towards econ/business phd:
Hey there, glad to see you taking an interest in academia. I hope I can offer some valuable advice (the below will be for economics/business - finance, management etc).
But fyi for econ, any applications below 169 for quant is immediately thrown in the bin, for Sloan, any quant below 50 again is binned (both insider info from admissions committee), meaning no matter how stellar you are (even with publications), the rest of your profile probably won't even be read.

Also, there's many many good institutions in the US, and you don't necessarily need to get tenure in the top 10. Like, it'd be nice, but I don't think that should be the goal/basis of considering a PhD in the US. Those positions are the exception, and not the rule, and most people don't have the expectations of being the top 10-20 researchers in the world. The way you phrased it sounds like if you don't make it to that level, then it's not worth it lol.
Not for econ/business, you are indeed better off maximizing your utility elsewhere if you don't make top 10 (the inside joke everyone makes at the top 10's is that anything outside of the top 10 for econ/business is labelled as "low baseball bros" lol). That is why I said unless OP's dream is academia, otherwise it is indeed not worth it; I can go on to list and explain in depth a whole lot of reasons why but I'll leave that if the OP wants to actually know.

Most of my friends with PhD's in math/engineering from the top 10 didn't have quite as stellar a resume as your requirements. They got good scores and we're on IMO and whatnot, but they didn't have multiple gold medals or anything. One of them went to Sloan for grad school, but did his undergrad in aerospace at usyd, didn't have any papers published, and wasn't an olympian or a university medallist. You definitely need to be bright and stand out from the crowd to get in, but you don't need to have a maxed out CV or have Einstein's credentials to get in lol.
Again, my advice was only for econ/business. In the past 5-7 years to get in top 10, you definitely do need max'ed out CV as I listed to have a decent shot. There are exceptions (e.g., connections, politics), which are the minority, but what I listed is the norm. Business (Finance/accounting/management in particular) is atrociously hard to get in without a fully stellar CV as I listed. Obviously, as I mentioned in my post, you still have a chance even if you don't have these credentials, just that your chances are significantly lower.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 03:53:08 pm by TrueTears »
PhD @ MIT (Economics).

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blyatman

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2019, 03:52:46 pm »
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Yeah, my post was only directed towards econ/business phd.
Yeh fair enough, got no idea how business/econ admissions works lol. Seems a lot more stringent that engineering, might be due to them receiving many more applicants than the other faculties so it's way more competitive.
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swico

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2019, 08:13:13 am »
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Thanks for all the amazing advice guys!

Wow, I initially thought that econ and business would be easier but looks like it's one of the most difficult to get in? When I last checked, maths/physics PhDs have around 200 applicants, but to hear that business schools have almost 7 times as much is quite amazing. I wonder why that is?

What kind of background (in terms of courses taken) should I have for say econ/bus PhDs? Do I need work experience?

What about LSE/Oxford/Cambridge, are they good for econ/bus?

Could you list the top 10 schools for economics and/or business?

TrueTears

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2019, 09:40:15 am »
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Yes, Business schools have one of the biggest applicant pool sizes out of the top 10s. This is mainly because Business schools of the top 10 are the richest faculties in the entire university because of the MBA programs they offer. In fact, all of the very generous stipends offered by the Business schools are all derived from MBA tuition fees. Needless to say, average career salaries at Business schools outweigh that of other faculties, so combining the excellent stipend support during your PhD as well as great career prospects, it is no wonder that Business schools receive insanely high amount of applications, hence leading to an extremely extremely competitive field.

Work experience is not required at all - remember this is a PhD (in econ/bus) and not an MBA/MFE. What you need is (top level) research experience, not work experience. In terms of coursework, you should have as much maths units as you can on your transcript, try take graduate level courses as well. You do not need any econ/bus courses at all. Focus entirely on your mathematics training.

LSE/Oxford/Cambridge cannot compare to top 10 US for econ/bus. They are leagues below (in terms of placement, prestige, and career prospects) and doing a PhD there will severely limit your career opportunities.

Top 10 for econ: 1) Harvard; 2) MIT; 3) Stanford; 4) Princeton; 5) Berkeley; 6) Yale; 7) Chicago; 8 ) UPenn; 9) NYU; 10) Northwestern.

Top 10 for bus (this is very hard since there are Finance/Accounting/Marketing/Management etc), but a weakly dominated list would be:

1) Harvard Bus Eco; 2) Stanford GSB; 3) MIT Sloan; 4) Berkeley Haas; 5) Chicago Booth; 6) UPenn Wharton; 7) NYU Stern; 8 ) Yale SOM; 9) Northwestern Kellogg; 10) Columbia CBS.

It is also no surprise that most of these are top 10-15 institutions globally on most established university rankings.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 09:43:54 am by TrueTears »
PhD @ MIT (Economics).

Interested in asset pricing, econometrics, and social choice theory.

swico

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2019, 01:37:35 pm »
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Thank you for the reply.

Really seems like you must be a genius to get into these top schools haha. I guess that's what it takes since the career prospects are so good. Now I'm seriously reconsidering as I am nowhere near as accomplished  :-\  and to think you were admitted into more than one of these schools, are you even mortal? haha

What about doing an econ PhD in Australia? Would I be able to work in academia in Australia? How's the career prospects versus America (salary, lifestyle, etc)?

TrueTears

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Re: Anybody doing a PhD? Questions and queries (Ivy League schools)
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2019, 01:52:36 pm »
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While the probability to make top 10 business/econ is extremely low, I highly suggest you to apply (the application fees do become a binding constraint at one point though, so apply as much as you can depending on your budget constraints).

Certainly, if you wish to work in Australia, doing your PhD here suffices. However, beware that your career prospects are severely limited. Academia in bus/econ in Australia is considered to be of quite a low standard globally. The research output is, to put it bluntly, appalling by US standards. An AER, QJE, JPE publication in Australia would probably instantly propel you to stardom with tenure guaranteed and make you the center of attention across the country, while in the USA, you would need multiple AERs across a decade to even be "considered" for tenure. However, that said, being in the "circle" in the USA does guarantee top tier publications relatively easier. Prestige matters, a group of authors from Harvard/MIT/Stanford would be much more likely to have an AER compared to a group from Australia (which will probably have a high chance of being desk rejected at any of the top journals). Salary-wise (relative to the cost of living), USA top 10 dominates Australia for obvious reasons. Business schools at Harvard, MIT etc are financed heavily by MBAs and receive huge private funding. An assistant professor ("lecturer") at a G8 can expect to earn anywhere between 80-100k AUD p.a. while in the USA top 10 one can expect anywhere between 250-300k USD p.a. That said, one can still have a comfortable lifestyle being in the econ academia in Australia, just do not expect to work at the frontier of the field.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 02:33:37 pm by TrueTears »
PhD @ MIT (Economics).

Interested in asset pricing, econometrics, and social choice theory.