ATAR Notes: Forum

HSC Stuff => New South Wales Technical Score Discussion => Topic started by: jamonwindeyer on March 01, 2016, 11:35:51 pm

Title: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on March 01, 2016, 11:35:51 pm
ATAR/SCALING Q+A THREAD

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Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: bethjomay on July 21, 2016, 04:52:51 pm
Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 21, 2016, 04:55:04 pm
Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!
Moderation is dependent on three factors:

1. Your rank in the cohort.
2. The relative mark differences in the cohort.
3. The top mark in the final exam. (Which you wouldn't know.)

Without information on this it is hard to say for sure what will happen.


Note that the actual raw internal marks THEMSELVES do absolutely nothing. It is only the relative mark differences and your rank that decide what happens. This is because schools that set harder assessments will be disadvantaged otherwise.
I think that if you're coming first (or near first) you won't be affected by scaling. If you are first by a lot (i.e. there's a massive gap between you and second, you are getting 90% while the person coming second is getting 40% you'll be considered as an outlier)

I may be wrong, but it's better to ask Jamon (I was putting my thought out there just to help you out)
That's not exactly false tbh but way too blurry.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 04:55:17 pm
Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!

I think that if you're coming first (or near first) you won't be affected by scaling. If you are first by a lot (i.e. there's a massive gap between you and second, you are getting 90% while the person coming second is getting 40% you'll be considered as an outlier)

I may be wrong, but it's better to ask Jamon (I was putting my thought out there just to help you out)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 21, 2016, 05:00:38 pm
Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!

Hey Beth!

Okay so Rui alluded to some of this stuff, I'll give you the short and sort of inaccurate version, the proper thing is in the article above!

Big question, and all the details are in the article above. However, the short (and slightly inaccurate) answer is, the better your class is, the lower your rank can be without adverse effect). Basically, if you are ranked 1st in a less than ideal class, it won't affect you, because you are first. If you are ranked low in a less than ideal class, then that is a bit more troublesome. This is because your rank plays a large role in determining your moderated school assessment mark.

If you are 4th, you (roughly speaking) will get somewhere near the 4th highest HSC Exam mark in your cohort. If you are 11th, you'll get somewhere near the 11th, etc etc. So, the lower your rank, the more you rely on your classmates to perform. In actual fact, your mark won't match exactly with the rank, everything is scaled to maintain mark separation as alluded to by Rui, but it's a good way to think about it nonetheless).

Of course BOSTES has limits in place, this is not going to cost you like 30 marks. But it would be a noticeable impact.

Your aim should be to perform at your absolute best. Your class' performance just means you have to work a little harder yourself. As long as your rank is solid and/or you really smash out your HSC, then you'll have no adverse effects whatsoever (besides an annoying class driving you nuts)  ;)

EDIT: None of this affects your HSC exam mark, that is yours alone, it only affects your moderated school assessment mark!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: bethjomay on July 21, 2016, 05:02:52 pm
Ok awesome, that makes more sense now! Haha, thank you!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 05:09:01 pm
You know how they say things like "your rank matters more than your mark"? How come some people who get like 80% in their school assessments end up getting band 6 in certain subjects?

Apparently I heard that if you miss your HSC exams for any reason (such as illness) then they make your school mark, your actual HSC mark

Funny story here (a bit irrelevant to the thread) but I remember a teacher at my school telling me that many years ago, there was some boardofstudies officer who apparently got fired (I can't remember where this  happened though and I can't remember what happened exactly) and she had all the HSC exam papers on top of her car and drove off and all of the exam papers started flying everywherev LOL. They ended up calculating the students' HSC mark via their school assessment mark. Must've been really bad for them LOL

I heard apparently that if you do courses with an "outside tutor" (must be one that is suitable according to the boardofstudies) then they calculate your mark according to how well you performed since it's only a one student course (out of school). If you get 90 in your school assessments and 96 in your actual HSC exam, then you'll get 93 total. Is this true?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 21, 2016, 05:12:11 pm
You know how they say things like "your rank matters more than your mark"? How come some people who get like 80% in their school assessments end up getting band 6 in certain subjects?

Apparently I heard that if you miss your HSC exams for any reason (such as illness) then they make your school mark, your actual HSC mark

Funny story here (a bit irrelevant to the thread) but I remember a teacher at my school telling me that many years ago, there was some boardofstudies officer who apparently got fired (I can't remember where this  happened though and I can't remember what happened exactly) and she had all the HSC exam papers on top of her car and drove off and all of the exam papers started flying everywherev LOL. They ended up calculating the students' HSC mark via their school assessment mark. Must've been really bad for them LOL

I heard apparently that if you do courses with an "outside tutor" (must be one that is suitable according to the boardofstudies) then they calculate your mark according to how well you performed since it's only a one student course (out of school). If you get 90 in your school assessments and 96 in your actual HSC exam, then you'll get 93 total. Is this true?
Because:
a) Who said your rank had to be shit if your mark in assessments is 80%
b) The whole point of moderation is to eliminate the fact that some schools will set harder assessment tasks. Moderation takes your exam marks (which are not biased, because everyone sits the same final exam) and overlaps it onto your school raw marks, however keeping the ranks preserved and parabolically distributed to reflect the raw mark differences.
_______________

As for outside tuition.

Yes. Because you have no other student to be moderated with.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 05:20:22 pm
Because:
a) Who said your rank had to be shit if your mark in assessments is 80%
b) The whole point of moderation is to eliminate the fact that some schools will set harder assessment tasks. Moderation takes your exam marks (which are not biased, because everyone sits the same final exam) and overlaps it onto your school raw marks, however keeping the ranks preserved and parabolically distributed to reflect the raw mark differences.
_______________

As for outside tuition.

Yes. Because you have no other student to be moderated with.

Apparently if you are getting 80% for any course, you know 80% of the course. If you are getting 90% you are getting 90% of the course so wouldn't it be weird if you just got 80% then all of a sudden scaling brings it up to a 90%? (I'm talking about tests of mediocre difficulty, not hard, not easy)

If you go to a school with literally no band 6's and you get 100% and the second highest is like 20% then what happens here?

That's kinda stupid, especially for a high scaling subject like MX1 or MX2, you should at least get scaled higher since it's MX1 or MX2 (as in your internal assessments must be dragged higher if you are doing a difficult course by yourself because it's kinda unfair to get 80% in a difficult course and not get scaled to 90%)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 21, 2016, 05:22:59 pm
Apparently if you are getting 80% for any course, you know 80% of the course. If you are getting 90% you are getting 90% of the course so wouldn't it be weird if you just got 80% then all of a sudden scaling brings it up to a 90%? (I'm talking about tests of mediocre difficulty, not hard, not easy)

If you go to a school with literally no band 6's and you get 100% and the second highest is like 20% then what happens here?

That's kinda stupid, especially for a high scaling subject like MX1 or MX2, you should at least get scaled higher since it's MX1 or MX2 (as in your internal assessments must be dragged higher if you are doing a difficult course by yourself because it's kinda unfair to get 80% in a difficult course and not get scaled to 90%)
What kind of blasphemy is this and what is its basis  :o
Unless it's just a figure of speech or something.

Well, if second highest is 20%, what is first highest? There's no mark difference here.

No. It is very much fair. Especially since I have rarely heard of one-to-one tuition students getting 100 raw in the final exam.
(Maths is one of those subjects that you can only state rank if your raw mark is at least 99)
State ranks are NOT based off your internal marks at ALL. ONLY the final exam mark.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 05:30:03 pm
What kind of blasphemy is this and what is its basis  :o
Unless it's just a figure of speech or something.

Well, if second highest is 20%, what is first highest? There's no mark difference here.

No. It is very much fair. Especially since I have rarely heard of one-to-one tuition students getting 100 raw in the final exam.
(Maths is one of those subjects that you can only state rank if your raw mark is at least 99)
State ranks are NOT based off your internal marks at ALL. ONLY the final exam mark.

That's what a teacher at my school said. If you scored 84% in your triginometry test, you understand 84% of everything in trigonometry, etc, you get what I'm talking about don't you?

There's an 80% difference

What does raw mark mean?

Then how are state ranks decided then?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 21, 2016, 05:32:31 pm
That's what a teacher at my school said. If you scored 84% in your triginometry test, you understand 84% of everything in trigonometry, etc, you get what I'm talking about don't you?

There's an 80% difference

What does raw mark mean?

Then how are state ranks decided then?
They're being relative lol. Exams aren't just about knowing your content they're also about being able to apply them.

What, so internals wise 2nd place got 20% and first place got 100%?
Or are you saying in the final exam 2nd place got 20% and 1st place got 100%

Raw mark - Your actual exam mark. Without ANYTHING that is a synonym to the word "scaling".

State ranks - Whoever gets the best raw mark in the final exam gets the state rank. (It's harder when too many people get the same raw mark)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 05:38:03 pm
They're being relative lol. Exams aren't just about knowing your content they're also about being able to apply them.

What, so internals wise 2nd place got 20% and first place got 100%?
Or are you saying in the final exam 2nd place got 20% and 1st place got 100%

Raw mark - Your actual exam mark. Without ANYTHING that is a synonym to the word "scaling".

State ranks - Whoever gets the best raw mark in the final exam gets the state rank. (It's harder when too many people get the same raw mark)

Internal wise because that's when scaling comes into play (I think)

Then don't they do tiebreakers (i.e. check their internals). I can't remember what happens

Also for the kids who are sitting a course via an outside tutor, they should just tell their teacher/tutor that they should make the exams easier so then they are more likely to get a band 6 lol. Might not work though but who knows
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 21, 2016, 05:40:46 pm
Internal wise because that's when scaling comes into play (I think)

Then don't they do tiebreakers (i.e. check their internals). I can't remember what happens

Also for the kids who are sitting a course via an outside tutor, they should just tell their teacher/tutor that they should make the exams easier so then they are more likely to get a band 6 lol. Might not work though but who knows
Internals wise if first place and second place are disparate by a massive margin of 80%

The reported internal mark will be quite strange. First place will get whatever the top exam mark was, but second place may be heaps behind.

E.g. final exam: 1st gets 96 raw, 2nd gets 94 raw
Moderated school mark could be 1st gets 96 raw, 2nd gets 90 raw or even 80 raw

Final exam: 1st gets 96 raw, 2nd gets 40 raw
Moderated school mark could just be 1st gets 96 raw, 2nd gets 34 raw


Yeah I'm not sure about the intricacies of state rank either.


No, no I don't get why they should get easier exams. I have no idea about how that's fair; just cause you get tutored you get easier exams.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 21, 2016, 07:18:23 pm
Then don't they do tiebreakers (i.e. check their internals). I can't remember what happens

The process, from BOSTES:

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.


Also for the kids who are sitting a course via an outside tutor, they should just tell their teacher/tutor that they should make the exams easier so then they are more likely to get a band 6 lol. Might not work though but who knows

Those students would get absolutely wrecked in the HSC when the difficulty becomes standard again. That, and BOSTES would catch them out, I've heard tales of it happening before  ;)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 07:45:55 pm
The process, from BOSTES:

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.


Those students would get absolutely wrecked in the HSC when the difficulty becomes standard again. That, and BOSTES would catch them out, I've heard tales of it happening before  ;)

Jamon, mind giving me an example?

Yeah I know but unless you're practicing difficult questions ever now and then, then you'll be able to handle the actual HSC exams with not much hesitation. How would BOSTES catch them out? I know that some really low ranked schools don't make their exams hard mainly because not many students can handle the difficulty of their exams
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 21, 2016, 07:53:00 pm
Jamon, mind giving me an example?

Yeah I know but unless you're practicing difficult questions ever now and then, then you'll be able to handle the actual HSC exams with not much hesitation. How would BOSTES catch them out? I know that some really low ranked schools don't make their exams hard mainly because not many students can handle the difficulty of their exams

Sure, so say Bob and Lauren are tied for first place for Extension 1 Math. The first two dot points in that process still yield a tie (highly unlikely). In that case, they go back to results for Mathematics. If Bob got 98 but Lauren got 97, then Bob takes first place in Extension 1, and Lauren takes second  ;D


James Ruse exams for example? Not the hardest out there. Some schools do set harder papers, and often they are selective, but there is no direct correlation there. And we are talking slight differences in difficulty anyway; it just doesn't make sense for a school to set easier or harder assessments. You just set to the standard. No more, no less  ;D

Oh, well say a few students did MX2 through external tuition, and all got 100%, that would be suss  ;) I'm not 100% sure though, I just heard this back at school  :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 08:23:20 pm
Sure, so say Bob and Lauren are tied for first place for Extension 1 Math. The first two dot points in that process still yield a tie (highly unlikely). In that case, they go back to results for Mathematics. If Bob got 98 but Lauren got 97, then Bob takes first place in Extension 1, and Lauren takes second  ;D


James Ruse exams for example? Not the hardest out there. Some schools do set harder papers, and often they are selective, but there is no direct correlation there. And we are talking slight differences in difficulty anyway; it just doesn't make sense for a school to set easier or harder assessments. You just set to the standard. No more, no less  ;D

Oh, well say a few students did MX2 through external tuition, and all got 100%, that would be suss  ;) I'm not 100% sure though, I just heard this back at school  :)

Oh, I get it now. But if they're both tied in MX1 and 2U then wouldn't it mean that they still would be tied in MX1

Well that is true because Sydney Grammar's papers are the hardest (for maths) and Ruse smashes Sydney Grammar in maths with a band 6 rate of 98% (if I remember correctly) but the thing is (I think I discussed this with RuiAce in the maths threads) is that if the exams are easier then wouldn't that mean that more people will be ranked similarly?

So basically set an exam where people's rankings are completely different from each other's and not have 5 people ranked equal first?

This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about outside tutors (just to prevent further confusion): http://rego.bostes.nsw.edu.au/registered-individual-non-government-schools/registration-requirements/staff/outside-tutors
http://ace.bostes.nsw.edu.au/ace-4013

Oh yeah good point, but just set like one easy exam and then one easy exam and then one hard, etc so then nobody notices anything suss lol. For harder maths topics, make the exams easy and for the easier topics, make the exams harder  ;)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 21, 2016, 08:57:52 pm
Oh, I get it now. But if they're both tied in MX1 and 2U then wouldn't it mean that they still would be tied in MX1

Well that is true because Sydney Grammar's papers are the hardest (for maths) and Ruse smashes Sydney Grammar in maths with a band 6 rate of 98% (if I remember correctly) but the thing is (I think I discussed this with RuiAce in the maths threads) is that if the exams are easier then wouldn't that mean that more people will be ranked similarly?

So basically set an exam where people's rankings are completely different from each other's and not have 5 people ranked equal first?

This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about outside tutors (just to prevent further confusion): http://rego.bostes.nsw.edu.au/registered-individual-non-government-schools/registration-requirements/staff/outside-tutors
http://ace.bostes.nsw.edu.au/ace-4013

Oh yeah good point, but just set like one easy exam and then one easy exam and then one hard, etc so then nobody notices anything suss lol. For harder maths topics, make the exams easy and for the easier topics, make the exams harder  ;)

I think that would be true, they would then both receive 1st place  ;D it actually happens reasonably often  :D

If the exams are easier, yes, rankings would probably be closer together. But Year 12 exams will differentiate if they are at the standard difficulty. Even a James Ruse cohort can't all get 98% in a 2U exam, there is always some level of spread. For selective schools, that spread is narrower and closer to the Band 6 end of the spectrum, but their exams are almost no different  :) the fact is, Sydney Grammar's assessments aren't all that harder than anyone else's. Everyone gets the same.

I think you are putting too much thought into how tutors could cheat the system... Really, they are only hurting themselves and their students if they choose to do that  :P

Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 09:32:52 pm
I think that would be true, they would then both receive 1st place  ;D it actually happens reasonably often  :D

If the exams are easier, yes, rankings would probably be closer together. But Year 12 exams will differentiate if they are at the standard difficulty. Even a James Ruse cohort can't all get 98% in a 2U exam, there is always some level of spread. For selective schools, that spread is narrower and closer to the Band 6 end of the spectrum, but their exams are almost no different  :) the fact is, Sydney Grammar's assessments aren't all that harder than anyone else's. Everyone gets the same.

I think you are putting too much thought into how tutors could cheat the system... Really, they are only hurting themselves and their students if they choose to do that  :P

I thought they were, mainly because the last question is usually a difficult question. So basically every school in NSW has exams of similar difficulty to the actual HSC exams? (in order to make the rankings more even)

Nah it just sounds so interesting though  :D because basically it's like one to one education going to your HSC but how are they hurting themselves and their students? Are they not giving enough exposure to the more difficult questions when doing so or what? ???
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 21, 2016, 09:36:49 pm
I thought they were, mainly because the last question is usually a difficult question. So basically every school in NSW has exams of similar difficulty to the actual HSC exams? (in order to make the rankings more even)

Nah it just sounds so interesting though  :D because basically it's like one to one education going to your HSC but how are they hurting themselves and their students? Are they not giving enough exposure to the more difficult questions when doing so or what? ???

I'll agree with you there, but on the whole, not too much harder. Everyone gets the same range of difficulty, because it's the HSC, and it needs to be even  :)

They are hurting themselves because they aren't actually teaching and rewarding based on merits. The students don't get exposed to the course in its intended fashion. And it's cheating, which is really the only necessary reason!  ;)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 21, 2016, 09:42:19 pm
I'll agree with you there, but on the whole, not too much harder. Everyone gets the same range of difficulty, because it's the HSC, and it needs to be even  :)

They are hurting themselves because they aren't actually teaching and rewarding based on merits. The students don't get exposed to the course in its intended fashion. And it's cheating, which is really the only necessary reason!  ;)

Hmmmmm, okay, but they can still teach and reward based on merits but in an unfair manner (like you said Jamon). Well the kids doing the course 1-1 externally are disadvantaged in that sense, there is no safety net to back them up whenever they do crap but the kids in a class are because of the scaling.

If you are first (in a class) do you get scaled up or do you not get affected by scaling at all (i.e. you don't get scaled down)?

If you are within the band 6 range, does scaling affect you in any way? (basically a repeat of the question above)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 21, 2016, 09:49:00 pm
Hmmmmm, okay, but they can still teach and reward based on merits but in an unfair manner (like you said Jamon). Well the kids doing the course 1-1 externally are disadvantaged in that sense, there is no safety net to back them up whenever they do crap but the kids in a class are because of the scaling.

If you are first (in a class) do you get scaled up or do you not get affected by scaling at all (i.e. you don't get scaled down)?

If you are within the band 6 range, does scaling affect you in any way? (basically a repeat of the question above)

Everyone should play by the rules  8)

First place's HSC mark get's averaged with the highest HSC mark in that cohort. EG - I'm 1st, my HSC Exam Mark ends up as 89, but someone at my school gets 95. My Moderated School Assessment Mark becomes 95, so my final HSC Mark is the average of 89 and 95, which is 92  ;D

Scaling affects all students irrespective of what Band they are in, but the effects are complex and may differ depending on whereabouts your mark sits in the cohort and compared to the rest of the HSC students, I give all the detail you'll need here  :D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 23, 2016, 08:24:29 pm
What does it mean by moderation?

They say in english standard it's harder to get a band 6 because there are too many people doing the course and in advanced it's easier. Is this because of moderation?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 23, 2016, 08:27:48 pm
What does it mean by moderation?

They say in english standard it's harder to get a band 6 because there are too many people doing the course and in advanced it's easier. Is this because of moderation?
In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks the marks of the cohort are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your their final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.

No. It is actually just as easy to get a band 6 in standard as it is to get in advanced.
The problems lie in a) sometimes standard are treated too lightly by their teachers, and b) from comparing marks, generally the students who do advanced at the stronger students. Anyone who can get a band 6 in advanced can easily get it in standard.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on July 23, 2016, 08:35:52 pm
In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.

No. It is actually just as easy to get a band 6 in standard as it is to get in advanced.
The problems lie in a) sometimes standard are treated too lightly by their teachers, and b) from comparing marks, generally the students who do advanced at the stronger students. Anyone who can get a band 6 in advanced can easily get it in standard.

Lol what's the point of standard then because english advaced is higher scaling than standard
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 23, 2016, 08:39:57 pm
Lol what's the point of standard then because english advaced is higher scaling than standard
Whoever said standard was the same difficulty as advanced?

Like I said, it's because the more capable students are generally the ones doing advanced.

Whilst ATAR scaling is intended to address the fact some subjects are harder than that, the basis for scaling is not just absolute difficulty. Difficulty is not a measurable quantity. You cannot simply say that oh maths extension 1 is harder than visual arts.

ATAR scaling is entirely based off the candidature of those who do the course. English gets streamed, and then using English as a basis to determine what should get scaled up more or down more. Typically the people who do MX2 also get the better English Adv marks, which is why MX2 is better scaled.

It just so happens, that if more capable people are doing your course, you get pulled up to a certain extent WITH them.

Also, keep in mind that alignment and (actual) scaling are two distinct things.

I'm not going to answer all of these questions. The answers can all be found through research.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: A1P on July 23, 2016, 08:49:41 pm
In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.

To be more unambiguous, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your cohort's total exam marks.

For example if you score 70 internal & 90 exam, but your cohort's total exam mark is about the same as their total internal mark, that indicates the school did not set harder internal assessments therefore your 70 internal won't get moderated up (despite your 90 exam).
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 23, 2016, 08:53:17 pm
To be more unambiguous, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your cohort's total exam marks.

For example if you score 70 internal & 90 exam, but your cohort's total exam mark is about the same as their total internal mark, that indicates the school did not set harder internal assessments therefore your 70 internal won't get moderated up (despite your 90 exam).
Do you need me to write a full essay on how moderation works? I was simply not bothered because linked in the original post is an in depth analysis of everything about moderation.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: A1P on July 23, 2016, 09:07:15 pm
Do you need me to write a full essay on how moderation works? I was simply not bothered because linked in the original post is an in depth analysis of everything about moderation.

Here I quote for you directly from that link
"The Board moderates your School Assessment Mark for a subject using the Examination Marks obtained by the students who sat the exam for that subject at your school. That is, your HSC Physics mark is moderated based on the results of Physics students at your school."

Doesn't that look like the whole cohort's exam marks rather than your own exam mark?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 23, 2016, 09:13:36 pm
Here I quote for you directly from that link
"The Board moderates your School Assessment Mark for a subject using the Examination Marks obtained by the students who sat the exam for that subject at your school. That is, your HSC Physics mark is moderated based on the results of Physics students at your school."

Doesn't that look like cohort's total exam marks rather than your own exam mark?
Is there a necessity to clearly say that it's dependent on the cohort? The fact is that I dumbed it down to not include any specifics. Everything was in the link so why should I?

Of course I knew that it was the cohort's range of marks that mattered. But there's no point in me going on about ranks and relative mark differences right now is there?

If all you were doing is calling me out for not relating to the entire cohort and rather the single student, I'm sorry but you may stop. Because my point was not to be specific about anything here.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: A1P on July 24, 2016, 05:55:05 pm
If all you were doing is calling me out for not relating to the entire cohort and rather the single student, I'm sorry but you may stop.

Your ranting over yet?

Did not mean to call you out, I did say just "to be more unambiguous". Dumbing down cohort's marks to one's exam mark can be confusing to many, an example is like this post
Re: Questions regarding rankings

That was all.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on July 24, 2016, 06:21:17 pm
Your ranting over yet?

Did not mean to call you out, I did say just "to be more unambiguous". Dumbing down cohort's marks to one's exam mark can be confusing to many, an example is like this post
Re: Questions regarding rankings

That was all.
I edited the relevant post.

Whilst this is definitely true, I simply felt no need to repeat what was already mentioned word for word. If ambiguity was caused, I would've preferred being asked by the confused or anyone about it, rather than being told about it from losing patience with questions that were already answered in prior posts.

To which I apologise for my dramatic nature there. Your comment was not made on a basis where it felt like a correction, rather just adding on information whilst I was holding my ground in amply already answered questions.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamie anderson on August 06, 2016, 04:03:28 pm
Hello, for moderation/ranking/scaling whatever its called, if im ranked 3rd in a subject and get the highest external mark ( out of my cohort ) in an exam can i still get the highest mark overall in my school cohort? or do i automatically get the 3rd highest mark and have it moderated with my internal ?

thanks
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 06, 2016, 04:06:50 pm
Hello, for moderation/ranking/scaling whatever its called, if im ranked 3rd in a subject and get the highest external mark ( out of my cohort ) in an exam can i still get the highest mark overall in my school cohort? or do i automatically get the 3rd highest mark and have it moderated with my internal ?

thanks

Hey Jamie! First, understand that your exam mark is yours, your cohort/rank has no effect on that ;D

Your Moderated Assessment Mark, however, is what gets changed. Getting the 3rd highest mark is a good way to approximate it,  so yes, while your exam mark will stay the same, your assessment mark will be moderated to something similar to the 3rd highest exam mark. These are then averaged at the end ;D

Edit: Note this is a rough way of explaining it. In reality the moderation process takes the School Marks themselves and shifts them up or down based on the exam average, keeping relative distance. That said, you will roughly get the 3rd highest exam mark as your internal mark.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on August 06, 2016, 04:35:16 pm
I reckon there's nothing to add to what Jamon said.

The point to remember is that your highest external mark belongs to yourself. That can't be changed; only the internals will go through a moderation process.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamie anderson on August 06, 2016, 11:10:25 pm
Thanks guys, also wondering if i can get a 90+ atar after sitting the actual hsc with my internal marks ( assuming i do a lot of work)
Adv Eng - 86/100 rank 4/20
Maths -65/100 rank 6/15
Economics - 76/100 rank 3/8
Legal - 93/100 rank 2/16
Business - 94/100 rank 1/18
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on August 06, 2016, 11:28:43 pm
Thanks guys, also wondering if i can get a 90+ atar after sitting the actual hsc with my internal marks ( assuming i do a lot of work)
Adv Eng - 86/100 rank 4/20
Maths -65/100 rank 6/15
Economics - 76/100 rank 3/8
Legal - 93/100 rank 2/16
Business - 94/100 rank 1/18
Yes.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 06, 2016, 11:36:14 pm
Thanks guys, also wondering if i can get a 90+ atar after sitting the actual hsc with my internal marks ( assuming i do a lot of work)
Adv Eng - 86/100 rank 4/20
Maths -65/100 rank 6/15
Economics - 76/100 rank 3/8
Legal - 93/100 rank 2/16
Business - 94/100 rank 1/18

Absolutely!! You've got an awesome set of marks there, really focus on improving your Mathematics results because everything else is in a fantastic spot to hit that 90+ goal ;D if you work hard, you can achieve whatever mark you want to! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 15, 2016, 10:06:23 pm
Isn't there a specific way HSC marks are calculated for courses sat outside of school? Pretend you sat a course with an outside tutor (e.g. 3U maths) and the exams he made you sit were really hard and you ended up getting 60s for those exams and in the external HSC exam everyone does, you get 100 for the exam. How is your raw HSC mark calculated by then? I know that BOSTES takes into account school marks and ranks (mainly ranks) to scale everyone equally because every school's exam differs in difficulty but how does this happen for courses with an outside tutor, especially when you're doing it one to one and how your external tutor's exam is much harder than actual school's? I'd be unfair if they took it for your actual mark you got in the exam, they should only be doing that if the internal exams are either easier or on par with difficulty with the actual HSC paper
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 15, 2016, 10:17:08 pm
Isn't there a specific way HSC marks are calculated for courses sat outside of school? Pretend you sat a course with an outside tutor (e.g. 3U maths) and the exams he made you sit were really hard and you ended up getting 60s for those exams and in the external HSC exam everyone does, you get 100 for the exam. How is your raw HSC mark calculated by then? I know that BOSTES takes into account school marks and ranks (mainly ranks) to scale everyone equally because every school's exam differs in difficulty but how does this happen for courses with an outside tutor, especially when you're doing it one to one and how your external tutor's exam is much harder than actual school's? I'd be unfair if they took it for your actual mark you got in the exam, they should only be doing that if the internal exams are either easier or on par with difficulty with the actual HSC paper
If you do a course by private tutoring and you're the only student, then effectively because of how moderation works your final exam mark is basically what mark you get reported. (The idea is: A candidature of 1 is completely FREE from moderation.)

That being said, private tutoring does benefit people who are actually THAT good.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jakesilove on September 15, 2016, 10:26:46 pm
Isn't there a specific way HSC marks are calculated for courses sat outside of school? Pretend you sat a course with an outside tutor (e.g. 3U maths) and the exams he made you sit were really hard and you ended up getting 60s for those exams and in the external HSC exam everyone does, you get 100 for the exam. How is your raw HSC mark calculated by then? I know that BOSTES takes into account school marks and ranks (mainly ranks) to scale everyone equally because every school's exam differs in difficulty but how does this happen for courses with an outside tutor, especially when you're doing it one to one and how your external tutor's exam is much harder than actual school's? I'd be unfair if they took it for your actual mark you got in the exam, they should only be doing that if the internal exams are either easier or on par with difficulty with the actual HSC paper

I think Jamon's original article answers your question. Your raw mark for internal assessments contributes nothing to your final marks; it's your rank, and your HSC results, that matter. If you were the only person in your class, and get 40% the whole way through, but get a 80 in the HSC exam, you will get 80 for your assessment mark as well.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 16, 2016, 11:35:05 am
I think Jamon's original article answers your question. Your raw mark for internal assessments contributes nothing to your final marks; it's your rank, and your HSC results, that matter. If you were the only person in your class, and get 40% the whole way through, but get a 80 in the HSC exam, you will get 80 for your assessment mark as well.

I still don't really get it, because shouldn't it be 60% (as in assessment marks)

Also for people who do courses with outside tutors, where do they sit their external exam (i.e. the HSC exam everyone else sits)?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 16, 2016, 11:46:48 am
I still don't really get it, because shouldn't it be 60% (as in assessment marks)

Also for people who do courses with outside tutors, where do they sit their external exam (i.e. the HSC exam everyone else sits)?
No. 60% is a raw assessment mark. If you read Jamon's article what you get reported is a moderated and then aligned assessment mark.

Your raw assessment mark in itself is ultimately useless.
_______________________

Where they sit it will be at the tutor's discretion.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 16, 2016, 12:05:34 pm
No. 60% is a raw assessment mark. If you read Jamon's article what you get reported is a moderated and then aligned assessment mark.

Your raw assessment mark in itself is ultimately useless.
_______________________

Where they sit it will be at the tutor's discretion.

What? So basically all that matters is the HSC external exam? What's the point of the school assessment and external assessment then if there is an equal weighting of 50% for each? I heard this one girl at ruse came third internally but smashed externals and came first in the state for bio. Was this because her internals were completely redundant or what?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 16, 2016, 12:28:24 pm
What? So basically all that matters is the HSC external exam? What's the point of the school assessment and external assessment then if there is an equal weighting of 50% for each? I heard this one girl at ruse came third internally but smashed externals and came first in the state for bio. Was this because her internals were completely redundant or what?
If you're a cohort of 1 student, ultimately there IS no point.

Whereas if you're in a cohort of at least 3, the raw marks still don't matter. It is the relative mark differences as Jamon would've said that matters.

I.e. Cohort one has marks 90, 80, 70 internally, whereas cohort two has marks 90, 75, 70. Moderation will impact DIFFERENTLY

Cohort three has marks 90, 80, 70 internally, whereas cohort four has marks 80, 70, 60. Moderation will basically do the SAME thing to BOTH cohorts
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 16, 2016, 12:31:06 pm

What? So basically all that matters is the HSC external exam? What's the point of the school assessment and external assessment then if there is an equal weighting of 50% for each? I heard this one girl at ruse came third internally but smashed externals and came first in the state for bio. Was this because her internals were completely redundant or what?

Internal RANK matters, as does relative placement within the cohort. But the value of the mark itself does not. The purpose of this is that schools will assess differently, but as long as all students in the same school get the same tasks, the ranks can be trusted, even if the marks can't be 🏻 I suppose we do internal assessments because basing absolutely everything on a single exam would be really mean, so they give you a chance to influence it
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 16, 2016, 04:48:19 pm
Internal RANK matters, as does relative placement within the cohort. But the value of the mark itself does not. The purpose of this is that schools will assess differently, but as long as all students in the same school get the same tasks, the ranks can be trusted, even if the marks can't be 🏻 I suppose we do internal assessments because basing absolutely everything on a single exam would be really mean, so they give you a chance to influence it

Would there be a moderation effect on a cohort with only 2 students?

So if your internal average mark was like 60 and your external mark was 95 (and you were first in the cohort and the exams were more difficult than the HSC, the BOSTES would do the average of the two exams and scale it up to like 90 (I'm assuming)

Wouldn't the same thing apply in a cohort of 1-2 students?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 16, 2016, 05:01:26 pm
Would there be a moderation effect on a cohort with only 2 students?

So if your internal average mark was like 60 and your external mark was 95 (and you were first in the cohort and the exams were more difficult than the HSC, the BOSTES would do the average of the two exams and scale it up to like 90 (I'm assuming)

Wouldn't the same thing apply in a cohort of 1-2 students?
I'm fairly positive a cohort of 2 works just like a cohort of 1 yes.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jakesilove on September 16, 2016, 05:24:10 pm
Would there be a moderation effect on a cohort with only 2 students?

So if your internal average mark was like 60 and your external mark was 95 (and you were first in the cohort and the exams were more difficult than the HSC, the BOSTES would do the average of the two exams and scale it up to like 90 (I'm assuming)

Wouldn't the same thing apply in a cohort of 1-2 students?

Student A get 60 internally, 90 externally
Student B gets 55 internally, 83 externally

Very likely, as an overall mark, student A will get 90 for internal and 90 for external, whilst student B will get 83 for internal and 83 for external (with some very minor modification).

Student A gets 60 internally, 83 externally
Student B gets 55 internally, 90 externally

The marks will then become more difficult to quantify, but Student A will receive a mark of 83 for their external mark, and slightly below 90 for their internal mark. Conversely, Student B will get 90 for their external mark, but slightly above 83 for their internal mark. You take your rank, find that rank in the cohort for the external exam, and that is approximately your internal mark. It works exactly the same for a cohort of 1, 2, 80 or 140.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: EmileeSmith on September 16, 2016, 05:37:34 pm
ohh this makes way more sense, thank you!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: fizzy.123 on September 16, 2016, 07:21:17 pm
Will I be able to get a 90+ atar with the following marks?

English Adv: 78/100 - Rank: 5/23
Maths: 83/100 - Rank: 3/9
Business Studies: 84/100 - Rank 2/17
PDHPE: 89/100 - Rank: 3/17
Society & culture: 88/100 - Rank: 3/19
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jakesilove on September 16, 2016, 07:34:54 pm
Will I be able to get a 90+ atar with the following marks?

English Adv: 78/100 - Rank: 5/23
Maths: 83/100 - Rank: 3/9
Business Studies: 84/100 - Rank 2/17
PDHPE: 89/100 - Rank: 3/17
Society & culture: 88/100 - Rank: 3/19

Hey! Whilst it is absolutely impossible to figure out what mark you're going to get, as it's very much dependent on your HSC scores and how difficult your assessments have been up until now, I think that your rankings indicate you can absolutely get a 90+ Atar. Actually, it is definitely possible; if you put in the hard work between now and the HSC, a 90+ is definitely achievable! Keep up the study and you'll get the marks you want :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 16, 2016, 07:41:47 pm
Will I be able to get a 90+ atar with the following marks?

English Adv: 78/100 - Rank: 5/23
Maths: 83/100 - Rank: 3/9
Business Studies: 84/100 - Rank 2/17
PDHPE: 89/100 - Rank: 3/17
Society & culture: 88/100 - Rank: 3/19
Whenever I see this type of post, I always flat out say yes.

Because fact is if you gun the final exams, these aren't going to matter. Regardless of what courses you chose.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: EmileeSmith on September 19, 2016, 11:00:56 am
does anyone know where I can find the subject scaling website ?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 19, 2016, 11:33:42 am
does anyone know where I can find the subject scaling website ?

Hey! There isn't a website that explains it or gives you the exact numbers, per say, but this report contains all the information you need. It's a massive read, but I've synthesised important bits in the article that I linked in the first post of this thread, and there are tables at the end with some nice stats ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 19, 2016, 11:44:01 am
does anyone know where I can find the subject scaling website ?
As Jamon mentioned, there is nothing that will ever give you the exact scaling algorithm. The parameters need to be changed every year due to each year's exam being different, and the data being different as well.

Especially since you are talking about 'scaling', which is what UAC does to generate your ATAR.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 20, 2016, 06:27:04 pm
Just in case anyone's interested, I enquired with the UAC about what happens when you do a course one to one with a tutor and this is what they said

Spoiler
"The scaling process is designed to encourage you to take courses for which you are best suited and which best prepare you for your future studies. The underlying principle is that you should be neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by choosing one HSC course over another. The scaling algorithm estimates what your marks would have been if all courses had been studied by all students and all courses had the same mark distribution.

With the exception of English, which is compulsory, you are free to choose your courses of study. Consequently, individual course candidatures vary in size and nature, and there are many different enrolment patterns. In 2015, there were more than 27,000 different enrolment patterns for ATAR-eligible students; of these, almost 20,000 patterns were taken by only one student.

Given the choice available, your rank in different courses will not necessarily have the same meaning. A good rank is more difficult to obtain when you are competing against students of high academic ability. Because of the lack of comparability, your raw marks are scaled before they are added to give the aggregates from which ATARs are determined.


Scaling modifies the mean, the standard deviation and the maximum mark in each course. Adjustments are then made to the marks of individual students to produce scaled marks. Although scaled marks are generally different from the raw marks from which they are derived, the ranking of students within a course is not changed.

Once the raw marks have been scaled, aggregates are calculated for ATAR-eligible students.

Percentiles, which indicate the ranking of students with respect to other ATAR-eligible students, are then determined on the basis of the aggregate of scaled marks.

The penultimate step is to determine what the percentiles would have been if all students in their Year 7 cohort completed Year 12 and were eligible for an ATAR. The last step is to truncate these percentiles at intervals of 0.05, commencing at 99.95. These are the ATARs.

Each ATAR corresponds to a range of aggregates.

The scaling process, which does not assume that one course is intrinsically more difficult than another or that the quality of the course candidature is always the same, is carried out afresh each year. All students who complete at least one ATAR course in a given year are included in the scaling process for that year."

Moderator Edit: Added Spoiler
So basically they just scale your marks up
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 20, 2016, 06:48:47 pm
I am thoroughly amazed by the amount of effort they put in to give you that reply
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 20, 2016, 06:57:06 pm
I am thoroughly amazed by the amount of effort they put in to give you that reply

Ok. They did it all this morning

DO you want to see the picture of me emailing them?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on September 20, 2016, 07:01:57 pm
Ok. They did it all this morning

DO you want to see the picture of me emailing them?
No. Privacy issues there
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: conic curve on September 20, 2016, 07:06:55 pm
No. Privacy issues there

Ok. Thanks for respecting my privacy
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jakesilove on September 20, 2016, 08:44:03 pm
Ok. They did it all this morning

DO you want to see the picture of me emailing them?
It's a copy a paste response to every HSC scaling question.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 20, 2016, 08:47:42 pm
It's a copy a paste response to every HSC scaling question.

This is true, I just ran it through a plagiarism checker (because I was equally baffled) and 100% of it can be found on UAC's website in pieces (no, I don't have a life apparently) ;) still a good response though! Pretty much the official version of what my article says :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: MysteryMarker on October 27, 2016, 09:07:38 pm
Hey guys, I've just read the article and just wanted to make sure that what I've taken from it is what you are trying to actually say.

So for this year's exam in 3U maths, I believe I my mark is around 57-60/70. Now what I want to know is that I am ranked 3rd, but lets say the rest of the students in the top 10 believe that they have achieved a mark of 65+/70. Does this mean that I essentially attain their mark + the BOSTES magical alteration algorithm alterations. Sorry, just both curious and dissappointed at how I went this exam.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on October 27, 2016, 09:14:40 pm
Hey guys, I've just read the article and just wanted to make sure that what I've taken from it is what you are trying to actually say.

So for this year's exam in 3U maths, I believe I my mark is around 57-60/70. Now what I want to know is that I am ranked 3rd, but lets say the rest of the students in the top 10 believe that they have achieved a mark of 65+/70. Does this mean that I essentially attain their mark + the BOSTES magical alteration algorithm alterations. Sorry, just both curious and dissappointed at how I went this exam.
For the internal component, on a simplified basis yes.

For the external component you keep what you get, which is 57-60/70 pre-alignment and who knows what post-alignment.


Remember that the HSC is weighted between both internals AND externals. Only INTERNALS get affected by moderation.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: MysteryMarker on October 27, 2016, 09:32:12 pm
For the internal component, on a simplified basis yes.

For the external component you keep what you get, which is 57-60/70 pre-alignment and who knows what post-alignment.


Remember that the HSC is weighted between both internals AND externals. Only INTERNALS get affected by moderation.

Oh ok, that definitely calms the nerves I've had since the nightmare of 3U. Also, not sure if this is too much to ask, but knowing my rank and mark, is it possible for you to estimate whether it is possible for me to attain an E4? If not thats cool, just trying milk out as much as I can  ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on October 27, 2016, 09:47:25 pm
Oh ok, that definitely calms the nerves I've had since the nightmare of 3U. Also, not sure if this is too much to ask, but knowing my rank and mark, is it possible for you to estimate whether it is possible for me to attain an E4? If not thats cool, just trying milk out as much as I can  ;D
Estimates become more reliable with more of the following

- Your raw mark for the exam. (obviously)
- Your rank
- Your trial mark
- Your mark difference from first place
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: MysteryMarker on October 27, 2016, 09:51:49 pm
Estimates become more reliable with more of the following

- Your raw mark for the exam. (obviously)
- Your rank
- Your trial mark
- Your mark difference from first place


Raw mark for the exam: lets just assume worst case scenario 57/70
Rank: 3/50
Trial Mark: 63/70
Mark difference from first place: For HSC I believe he only lost one mark so 12 marks.
My raw mark school assessment mark is 85.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on October 27, 2016, 09:56:34 pm
Raw mark for the exam: lets just assume worst case scenario 57/70
Rank: 3/50
Trial Mark: 63/70
Mark difference from first place: For HSC I believe he only lost one mark so 12 marks.
My raw mark school assessment mark is 85.
May be a tad off cause when I meant raw mark difference that was for internals, not the final exam

90-94
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: MysteryMarker on October 27, 2016, 10:03:03 pm
May be a tad off cause when I meant raw mark difference that was for internals, not the final exam

90-94

Shiiiiiieeeeet. Looks like i'm going to bed a happy man today.  ;D Oh and the difference in raw mark of the internals is around 3-4%.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: rmdb on March 13, 2017, 11:21:17 pm
Student A gets 60 internally, 83 externally
Student B gets 55 internally, 90 externally

The marks will then become more difficult to quantify, but Student A will receive a mark of 83 for their external mark, and slightly below 90 for their internal mark. Conversely, Student B will get 90 for their external mark, but slightly above 83 for their internal mark. You take your rank, find that rank in the cohort for the external exam, and that is approximately your internal mark. It works exactly the same for a cohort of 1, 2, 80 or 140.

This is incorrect.

The final marks for Student A are 83 exam and 90 assessment; the final marks for Student B are 90 exam and 83 assessment. There is no doubt. This wasn't just flipping the marks around - the ratio of raw marks of an n=2 cohort is used to extrapolate one possible assessment mark for the 2nd ranked student; the other possible mark being the lowest exam mark. In this case, it could be either 82.5 or 83, but since 83 is the highest of the two, that is the assessment mark of Student B.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Mary_a on March 15, 2017, 08:34:02 pm
Thanks guys this is so useful! I've never really understood how this stuff works-but I get it!

Thanks so much,

Mary
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: 12070 on March 15, 2017, 09:05:33 pm
If I came 4th in my cohort and got an internal of 78 for example. Then in the HSC I got 40 but the 4th rank was 84. How big of a disparity between 84 would there be to if I got 82? Hope that made sense
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on March 15, 2017, 09:52:56 pm
If I came 4th in my cohort and got an internal of 78 for example. Then in the HSC I got 40 but the 4th rank was 84. How big of a disparity between 84 would there be to if I got 82? Hope that made sense

Hey! It would depend on the spread in your internal results, because that affects the way moderation works, but 84 would be a decent estimate of your moderated assessment mark in most cases. If we ignore the complexities of moderation and assume your moderated assessment mark was 84, then that would be averaged with your exam mark of 40 and your HSC Mark would be 62. This would be compared to averaging with 82, which would yield a HSC mark of 83 (again, completely dependent on the specifics of moderation, which is dependent on your cohort, but these are solid estimates) :)

That said, an exam mark of 40 could quite possibly trigger alarm bells at NESA (just got a flash of a giant tower with security fences and armed guards, aha)  - There are special procedures students who perform significantly below expectation in the HSC exam. I don't know of any specific documentation regarding this, but it is possible that the normal procedures wouldn't apply to you :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: 12070 on March 16, 2017, 07:07:12 pm
Hey! It would depend on the spread in your internal results, because that affects the way moderation works, but 84 would be a decent estimate of your moderated assessment mark in most cases. If we ignore the complexities of moderation and assume your moderated assessment mark was 84, then that would be averaged with your exam mark of 40 and your HSC Mark would be 62. This would be compared to averaging with 82, which would yield a HSC mark of 83 (again, completely dependent on the specifics of moderation, which is dependent on your cohort, but these are solid estimates) :)

That said, an exam mark of 40 could quite possibly trigger alarm bells at NESA (just got a flash of a giant tower with security fences and armed guards, aha)  - There are special procedures students who perform significantly below expectation in the HSC exam. I don't know of any specific documentation regarding this, but it is possible that the normal procedures wouldn't apply to you :)

Okay because I'm in a class of 6 and 2 students will probably get band 6's and 2 will probably get band 2's. I beat the other student by 1 mark in the assignment but I feel like she will be much better than me in the written exam. I could possibly drop to like a 60 in the HSC because my teacher is really bad (our class had 13 in prelim and 5 said they dropped due to our teacher. 3 of us would have also dropped if we could) and a lack of interest in economics. I only have 10 units as well and I'm wondering how important getting the 3rd rank is and how much of a factor in the HSC that will become.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on March 16, 2017, 07:58:58 pm
Okay because I'm in a class of 6 and 2 students will probably get band 6's and 2 will probably get band 2's. I beat the other student by 1 mark in the assignment but I feel like she will be much better than me in the written exam. I could possibly drop to like a 60 in the HSC because my teacher is really bad (our class had 13 in prelim and 5 said they dropped due to our teacher. 3 of us would have also dropped if we could) and a lack of interest in economics. I only have 10 units as well and I'm wondering how important getting the 3rd rank is and how much of a factor in the HSC that will become.

Ultimately, you shouldn't be thinking whether or not getting the 3rd rank is important or not, because you should be going for it anyway. Any energy you spend hyper analysing the logistics is just time you should spend studying for Economics to maximise your result! Don't worry too much about what you can't control, just do the absolute best at what you can control! :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Claudiaa on March 16, 2017, 09:53:40 pm
I absolutely adore procrastinating by reading forums like this! Good job guys, some interesting stuff in this thread!  ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Ellie__ on March 25, 2017, 08:52:19 am
Hey guys,

Just a quick question, scaling wise how does the class affect your overall mark? Say if about 4 people are working quite hard and achieving good marks, yet the other 12 aren't going quite so well, will that affect the top 4's overall mark?


Sorry if this doesn't make sense :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on March 25, 2017, 10:30:57 am
Hey guys,

Just a quick question, scaling wise how does the class affect your overall mark? Say if about 4 people are working quite hard and achieving good marks, yet the other 12 aren't going quite so well, will that affect the top 4's overall mark?


Sorry if this doesn't make sense :)

Hey Ellie! Speaking basically, yes it does, but the impact is lessened the better those 4 students go! Their exam marks are theirs without any effect, but their internal mark will be based on the performance of the class in the exam, and their rank :) the process is explained here! Hopefully it makes sense of things for you ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Ellie__ on March 25, 2017, 07:15:59 pm
Hey Ellie! Speaking basically, yes it does, but the impact is lessened the better those 4 students go! Their exam marks are theirs without any effect, but their internal mark will be based on the performance of the class in the exam, and their rank :) the process is explained here! Hopefully it makes sense of things for you ;D

Ah okay, so that means that the top 4's marks shouldn't really be affected even though there will be a big gap between 4th and 5th??

Thankyou!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: rmdb on March 25, 2017, 08:07:08 pm
Ah okay, so that means that the top 4's marks shouldn't really be affected even though there will be a big gap between 4th and 5th??

Thankyou!

Your assessment mark will be adjusted such that the relative gaps between ranks are maintained. If there is a large gap between 4th and 5th, there will also be a large gap in the assessment marks. You should think of the assessment marks as coming from a pool of marks, i.e. the pool of HSC exam marks. The higher your school mark (%) is, the higher your share of the pool of marks. Every mark in the pool is important, so the higher your cohort's marks are, the higher your assessment mark can be. All marks affect each other, so you should aim to get many marks in school, and many marks in the HSC exam. The rest is beyond your control.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: pikachu975 on March 31, 2017, 04:42:48 pm
Is it bad to do standard english in terms of scaling?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on March 31, 2017, 05:07:12 pm
Is it bad to do standard english in terms of scaling?

Hey! So it depends on what you mean by 'bad', but here is some data compared to Advanced based on scaling that occurred in 2016 -

HSC Mark - 76
Advanced: Scaled to 52.4
Standard: Scaled to 51.8

They are both meant to scale down, just the way it works! But at a mark in the Band 4 range, the difference is pretty slim! The difference starts to become a little bigger as you go higher:

HSC Mark - 81
Advanced: Scaled to 65.4
Standard: Scaled to 63.2

But even then, not huge right! The difference between the two doesn't get much larger than a few points. The big difference isn't in scaling but in where the marks sit, the average mark for Advanced is about 12 points higher than Standard (81 vs 69) - And while 15% of Advanced students will get a Band 6, only 1% of Standard students get a Band 6 :)

That said, there is absolutely nothing stopping you succeeding with Standard! I've seen plenty of people do it. Statistically, it's less likely, but it's up to you not to be a statistic! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Joseph41 on March 31, 2017, 06:59:32 pm
I absolutely adore procrastinating by reading forums like this! Good job guys, some interesting stuff in this thread!  ;D

It truly is the best form of procrastination, hahaha. ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: pikachu975 on April 01, 2017, 12:15:26 am
Hey! So it depends on what you mean by 'bad', but here is some data compared to Advanced based on scaling that occurred in 2016 -

HSC Mark - 76
Advanced: Scaled to 52.4
Standard: Scaled to 51.8

They are both meant to scale down, just the way it works! But at a mark in the Band 4 range, the difference is pretty slim! The difference starts to become a little bigger as you go higher:

HSC Mark - 81
Advanced: Scaled to 65.4
Standard: Scaled to 63.2

But even then, not huge right! The difference between the two doesn't get much larger than a few points. The big difference isn't in scaling but in where the marks sit, the average mark for Advanced is about 12 points higher than Standard (81 vs 69) - And while 15% of Advanced students will get a Band 6, only 1% of Standard students get a Band 6 :)

That said, there is absolutely nothing stopping you succeeding with Standard! I've seen plenty of people do it. Statistically, it's less likely, but it's up to you not to be a statistic! ;D

Yeah I just asked about this because I did bad in 30% worth of assessments and my rank is 25 of 35, last year my school got 12 band 6's and the rest band 5's (I think) so I was just thinking of dropping. I probably won't now though.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on April 01, 2017, 12:19:06 am
Yeah I just asked about this because I did bad in 30% worth of assessments and my rank is 25 of 35, last year my school got 12 band 6's and the rest band 5's (I think) so I was just thinking of dropping. I probably won't now though.

Yeah, my thinking is that any mark you get in Standard, you'll absolutely be able to get that same mark in Advanced. So given that you're halfway through already, I reckon you should hang in there! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: grace.estelle on April 01, 2017, 11:15:15 am

State ranks are NOT based off your internal marks at ALL. ONLY the final exam mark.

Hi! Does this mean that even if you are not coming first in your school, say if I'm coming second or third, but my HSC exam mark is the highest from my school, then I could still get a state rank? I'm unsure because I saw somewhere that if you are not coming first in the internal school exams, but you come first in the HSC exam, then your exam mark will be given to the person who came first in the internal exams. Is this true?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on April 01, 2017, 11:47:17 am
Hi! Does this mean that even if you are not coming first in your school, say if I'm coming second or third, but my HSC exam mark is the highest from my school, then I could still get a state rank? I'm unsure because I saw somewhere that if you are not coming first in the internal school exams, but you come first in the HSC exam, then your exam mark will be given to the person who came first in the internal exams. Is this true?

Hey Grace! Yes, that is true, and it happened to me - I state ranked Legal even though I came 2nd in Legal internally ;D

What you say about your exam mark going to the highest ranked student is true, but that is to do with the moderation of your internal marks. Like, the exam marks get used to moderate your assessment mark, and THAT is averaged with your HSC exam mark. The exam mark is yours, and it is that mark that state ranks are based on!

If you've not read this guide a read yet, it will hopefully explain this in a little more detail for you! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mohanedibrahim1 on April 06, 2017, 12:37:19 pm
Hey just say i got all band 6 in my 12 units, but in a very poor ranking school would i still be able to achieve a good ATAR.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on April 06, 2017, 12:48:39 pm
Hey just say i got all band 6 in my 12 units, but in a very poor ranking school would i still be able to achieve a good ATAR.

Yep! School rankings aren't considered in the calculation of your ATAR - If you get straight Band 6's you will almost definitely get a 90+ ATAR ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: 12070 on July 26, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
What effect does the percentage difference between internal marks have? If 3rd gets an internal mark of 81 and 4th gets 65. Then in the HSC, they both get 82. What difference would an internal mark of 80 for 4th have on 4th's moderated mark? Some people say it wouldn't affect it at all but I do not believe this to be true but can't find a definitive answer.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 26, 2017, 10:00:26 pm
What effect does the percentage difference between internal marks have? If 3rd gets an internal mark of 81 and 4th gets 65. Then in the HSC, they both get 82. What difference would an internal mark of 80 for 4th have on 4th's moderated mark? Some people say it wouldn't affect it at all but I do not believe this to be true but can't find a definitive answer.

Hey! It is honestly really hard to tell because there are so many variables. But, spacing is maintained - If 3rd was significantly ahead of 4th internally, that would stay the same after moderation of the internal marks ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: seventeenboi on July 26, 2017, 10:00:26 pm
Haha I'd like to ask about the possibility of improving a subject that could possibly be in a band5 after trials to a band 6 after externals... has is been done before ??
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 26, 2017, 10:01:32 pm
Haha I'd like to ask about the possibility of improving a subject that could possibly be in a band5 after trials to a band 6 after externals... has is been done before ??

Hey! Is done all the time, a strong performance in the HSC can make a huge difference (and is helped by your cohort doing well as a whole, as the guide linked in the OP details) ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: 12070 on July 26, 2017, 10:14:13 pm
Hey! It is honestly really hard to tell because there are so many variables. But, spacing is maintained - If 3rd was significantly ahead of 4th internally, that would stay the same after moderation of the internal marks ;D

Thanks for that! I also distinctly remember our head of curriculum stating that no one's moderated mark is below the worst HSC mark. I also believe this is false. Sorry for the hassle; I just want to know how important sharing notes will be after trials.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 26, 2017, 10:19:08 pm

Thanks for that! I also distinctly remember our head of curriculum stating that no one's moderated mark is below the worst HSC mark. I also believe this is false. Sorry for the hassle; I just want to know how important sharing notes will be after trials.

Nope that is actually true!! The lowest moderated is made equal to the lowest HSC mark (or as close as is possible to keep the spread the same)

Sharing Notes = Vital. You really want a strong cohort around you in that exam room, it makes your life easier and provides a safety net
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Rainbowhippocampus on August 10, 2017, 04:45:46 pm
Hey guys,
I'm just wondering if you're going crap in English advanced (around 70-80%) but going well in your other subjects (85-95%) how much it could impact your scaling and atar?
Thanks!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: pokemonlv10 on August 10, 2017, 05:48:42 pm
Hey, was wondering if getting an atar of 92 is achieveable with these marks in a top 40 selective school

Ranks:
English Advanced: 64/121 - 67%
Business Studies: 10/27 - 80%
Mathematics 2u: 50/99 - 75%
3u: 85/99 - 60%
Legal Studies: 3/32 - 94%
Physics: 42/85 - 70%
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Rainbowhippocampus on August 10, 2017, 05:58:09 pm
Hey guys also just wondering if an atar of at least 90 is achievable with these marks (excluding trials) and rank.
School rank: 390
English advanced: 17/32 - 75% average
Biology: 1/24 - 92% average
Business Studies: 1/25 - 90% average
Chemistry: 2/12 - 82% average
Earth and Environmental Science: 1/9 - 96% average
Mathematics General 2: 1/60 - 88% average

Thanks!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 10, 2017, 09:17:21 pm
Hey guys,
I'm just wondering if you're going crap in English advanced (around 70-80%) but going well in your other subjects (85-95%) how much it could impact your scaling and atar?
Thanks!

Hey! I definitely wouldn't call 70-80% in Advanced crap. That sort of mark isn't going to be a huge boost to your ATAR of course, but it definitely won't be dragging you down in any significant way either! Depending on the ATAR you are aiming for, a few strong results in the 90's will easily balance out that result for Advanced.

Try and push that Advanced mark up as high as you can though! It will definitely be better for you to have that mark as far into the 80's as possible ;D

Hey guys also just wondering if an atar of at least 90 is achievable with these marks (excluding trials) and rank.
School rank: 390
English advanced: 17/32 - 75% average
Biology: 1/24 - 92% average
Business Studies: 1/25 - 90% average
Chemistry: 2/12 - 82% average
Earth and Environmental Science: 1/9 - 96% average
Mathematics General 2: 1/60 - 88% average

Thanks!

90+ ATAR definitely achievable with those scores, you are killing it, great work! Obviously for 90+ you want as much as possible in the 90's, so work hard to drive up General Math and Advanced English. Chemistry scales really well in the Band 5/6 range so although that mark is lower than General, it probably isn't as much a priority. Also keep in mind your HSC marks in the exam won't necessarily reflect the raw marks you are getting now - You'll improve, and there is all sorts of moderation/alignment involved ;D

Your ranks have set you up really nicely - Great work ;D

Here's a full guide to how your ATAR is calculated, if it interests you! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Rainbowhippocampus on August 10, 2017, 09:21:33 pm
Hey! I definitely wouldn't call 70-80% in Advanced crap. That sort of mark isn't going to be a huge boost to your ATAR of course, but it definitely won't be dragging you down in any significant way either! Depending on the ATAR you are aiming for, a few strong results in the 90's will easily balance out that result for Advanced.

Try and push that Advanced mark up as high as you can though! It will definitely be better for you to have that mark as far into the 80's as possible ;D

90+ ATAR definitely achievable with those scores, you are killing it, great work! Obviously for 90+ you want as much as possible in the 90's, so work hard to drive up General Math and Advanced English. Chemistry scales really well in the Band 5/6 range so although that mark is lower than General, it probably isn't as much a priority. Also keep in mind your HSC marks in the exam won't necessarily reflect the raw marks you are getting now - You'll improve, and there is all sorts of moderation/alignment involved ;D

Your ranks have set you up really nicely - Great work ;D

Here's a full guide to how your ATAR is calculated, if it interests you! ;D

Thank you so much!  I'm much more relieved now ive been panicking recently with the english mark thinking it could severely impact my atar.  I'll definitely try and improve english and math!  Once again thank you!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 10, 2017, 09:23:56 pm
Hey, was wondering if getting an atar of 92 is achieveable with these marks in a top 40 selective school

Ranks:
English Advanced: 64/121 - 67%
Business Studies: 10/27 - 80%
Mathematics 2u: 50/99 - 75%
3u: 85/99 - 60%
Legal Studies: 3/32 - 94%
Physics: 42/85 - 70%

Hey! For an ATAR of 92 you'd want a sizeable number of Band 6 scores, which is definitely achievable for you if you really push hard. Based on those marks, 3U is likely to be the unit that won't count for you, so you won't have any scaling benefits from that. Your ranks and marks in Business and Legal will likely be leading the charge here, you need really strong Band 6 performances in those to balance out the lower scores in Physics and 2U - Although they scale well, it won't do the work for you. Focus on pushing them up as high as you possibly can.

You can do it. A really strong performance from not only yourself, but also your school cohort in the HSC exams (since your ranks are around the middle of the pac), will be needed to get you there though.

Here's a full guide to how your ATAR is calculated, if it interests you! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Claudiaa on August 10, 2017, 09:41:58 pm
Currently in year 11...3rd term, and all my thoughts about scaling have been banished. I really do believe that scaling is insignificant if the subject obviously is not one of your strengths! The current dux of my school chose what are deemed as "poor" scaling subjects, but because the workload is obviously a lot more easier to handle, and for other obvious reasons, she is easily claiming the position as dux at my school where Extension  2 math, Extension english students are suffering with ranks...so scaling really is BS ...unless of course you ARE great at those "high" scaling subjects
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: A1P on August 11, 2017, 01:35:48 am
The current dux of my school chose what are deemed as "poor" scaling subjects, but because the workload is obviously a lot more easier to handle, ...so scaling really is BS ...

If not for this scaling BS students taking subjects with easier workload end up with higher ATAR, would you think that's a better outcome for all?

What effect does the percentage difference between internal marks have? If 3rd gets an internal mark of 81 and 4th gets 65. Then in the HSC, they both get 82. What difference would an internal mark of 80 for 4th have on 4th's moderated mark?

The effect of moderation is not dependent on each student's exam mark but on the whole cohort's. Internal marks except 1st rank's are moderated by the ratio of cohort's total exam marks (call it X) over cohort's total internal marks (Y), approximately. With the examples above:

Student 1's HSC mark = 81*[X / Y] + 82 div by 2
Student 2's HSC mark = 65*[X / Y] + 82 div by 2
Student 2a's HSC mark = 80*[X / Y] + 82 div by 2
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 11, 2017, 08:55:00 am
If not for this scaling BS students taking subjects with easier workload end up with higher ATAR, would you think that's a better outcome for all?

Without speaking for her, I don't think Claudia was saying the idea of scaling is bogus, scaling is absolutely a necessary (but perhaps imperfect in some ways) thing in attempting to equalise the workload and difficulty of different subject choices. Nothing could do it perfectly, the current system does it relatively fairly imo. What I think Claudia was saying though was that the idea of picking high scaling subjects purely for success is bogus. You will almost certainly do far better choosing subjects you have an interest in and are at least somewhat passionate about. And this I certainly agree with!

While it happens, scaling shouldn't determine your course choices, at least not over more tangible benefits like furthering your knowledge for tertiary study. I get it being a consideration, it would be silly not to consider it, but the fact that it plays such a large role in subject decisions for many people is evidence of the dangerous trend of the HSC being more about the end game and the final number than about the actual process of education and enrichment, which subtracts from the value of doing it in the first place. It's what leads to some teachers telling students to rote learn the 20/20 essays that are handed to them instead of actually learning how to argue a point, or to regurgitating a method in Maths without actually understanding the concepts behind it :P

#rant
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Wales on August 12, 2017, 10:54:17 am
Without speaking for her, I don't think Claudia was saying the idea of scaling is bogus, scaling is absolutely a necessary (but perhaps imperfect in some ways) thing in attempting to equalise the workload and difficulty of different subject choices. Nothing could do it perfectly, the current system does it relatively fairly imo. What I think Claudia was saying though was that the idea of picking high scaling subjects purely for success is bogus. You will almost certainly do far better choosing subjects you have an interest in and are at least somewhat passionate about. And this I certainly agree with!

While it happens, scaling shouldn't determine your course choices, at least not over more tangible benefits like furthering your knowledge for tertiary study. I get it being a consideration, it would be silly not to consider it, but the fact that it plays such a large role in subject decisions for many people is evidence of the dangerous trend of the HSC being more about the end game and the final number than about the actual process of education and enrichment, which subtracts from the value of doing it in the first place. It's what leads to some teachers telling students to rote learn the 20/20 essays that are handed to them instead of actually learning how to argue a point, or to regurgitating a method in Maths without actually understanding the concepts behind it :P

#rant

Completely agree. I have a friend in a top selective school who chose her subjects purely based on scaling. ( 3u/3u Chem Eco) and she's hating it. Her teacher gives her sample exemplar's and gets told to memorise it for the exams. Rumour also has it the teacher gets paid based on the number of Band 6's her classes get. People constantly are caught up in what subjects to do for scaling or future benefits as opposed to what they enjoy. It's killing the education system essentially.

Anyway, my point is that don't choose your subjects based on scaling entirely. I'm loving legal atm while she's hating eco and it's likely that my legal mark will outscale her eco because she cannot bring herself to do the work.

/endrant
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: beatroot on August 18, 2017, 08:13:02 pm
Do non-ATAR students affect the scaling for ATAR subjects? If they performed badly during the HSC, would this drag this class down? Or would they not be counted?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 18, 2017, 09:22:01 pm

Do non-ATAR students affect the scaling for ATAR subjects? If they performed badly during the HSC, would this drag this class down? Or would they not be counted?

Hey! My answer would be that they do, but that's only because I've never read anything suggesting otherwise - Whether you are qualifying for an ATAR or not the system would treat you the same I believe! Note that one or two poor performers aren't going to impact a class full of otherwise hard workers in any significant way though!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: hazzaizmine on August 22, 2017, 08:11:20 pm
I am actually really worried for two of my subjects chemistry and English, my ranks are bad and I am not sure if they actually matter or not. Another thing is if your rank is like 6/10 for a subject but you score a raw mark of 90 and above in the HSC does that mark go to the person who is coming first. If so how is that even fair? :-\
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Natasha.97 on August 22, 2017, 08:37:49 pm
I am actually really worried for two of my subjects chemistry and English, my ranks are bad and I am not sure if they actually matter or not. Another thing is if your rank is like 6/10 for a subject but you score a raw mark of 90 and above in the HSC does that mark go to the person who is coming first. If so how is that even fair? :-\

Hi!
From my understanding, a raw mark of 90+ does get given to the first person (if that was the highest), but it gets averaged out with their own mark :)
The "mark-stealing" thing is NESA's way of awarding people who work consistently throughout the year

Hope this helps :)

Edit: If your cohort does well as a group, ranks don't really matter :) Here (under moderation)is a link if you want to get specific details!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 22, 2017, 11:48:40 pm
I am actually really worried for two of my subjects chemistry and English, my ranks are bad and I am not sure if they actually matter or not. Another thing is if your rank is like 6/10 for a subject but you score a raw mark of 90 and above in the HSC does that mark go to the person who is coming first. If so how is that even fair? :-\

Welcome to the forums!! ;D 13cheungjn1 hit the nail on the head and you should definitely read the guide she linked - Just want to stress that if you get 90 in the HSC Exam, that is your mark. Your exam mark reflects your performance and yours alone. It is only the internal mark that is moderated based on the exam marks of your cohort - Again, the guide should explain all that nicely. Let us know if you have questions! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: hazzaizmine on August 26, 2017, 12:13:39 pm
Okay that makes sense, so if your external mark is 90+ no one can touch that? And wanted to ask do the trials have a big effect on your HSC, because that's what my teachers are saying?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 26, 2017, 12:27:53 pm
Okay that makes sense, so if your external mark is 90+ no one can touch that? And wanted to ask do the trials have a big effect on your HSC, because that's what my teachers are saying?

Yeah exactly, external mark is yours and yours alone - It will be used to moderate the internal marks of your class but your external mark is untouched ;D

Trials are important, for sure, but your HSC is way more important than that :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: HandsomeJack on August 28, 2017, 12:01:29 pm
Hi,
I have a maths class that has a high top and a low bottom


I have a chemistry class that has results pretty spread out



Is it better to improve the results of the top 5, bottom 5 or the whole class for each of the situations stated above?
My rankings aren't great: 4th in both.

Thanks
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 28, 2017, 01:36:11 pm

Hi,
I have a maths class that has a high top and a low bottom


I have a chemistry class that has results pretty spread out



Is it better to improve the results of the top 5, bottom 5 or the whole class for each of the situations stated above?
My rankings aren't great: 4th in both.

Thanks

Hey! The improvement is going to mean the same whether you are getting the improvement from the top or the bottom. You want a high class average, so you want everyone to do as well as possible essentially
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: bun00 on August 28, 2017, 01:42:51 pm
hey ppl!
jst wondering....do languages scale well? even a beginners subject?
tku! ;)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 28, 2017, 01:47:10 pm

hey ppl!
jst wondering....do languages scale well? even a beginners subject?
tku! ;)

Hey! I think it varies a bit, you can check out the figures yourself towards the end of this document here!! Look for the table of scaled marks versus percentiles, and just compare your language with other subjects

http://www.uac.edu.au/documents/atar/2016-ScalingReport.pdf
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: bun00 on August 28, 2017, 05:47:35 pm
also...i currently do 12 units and am already guessing which of my subjects wont be included in my 10 units for ATAR score as it is unspeakably low low lowww :o...so..i feel that if i work hard to get that subject (mathematics) off its feet i'm only gonna lose time where i could be working for my already better subjects....so should i just be focusing on my better subjects as im pretty sure that bad one will not be included to calculate my atar....if that makes sense?! be v glad of any help  ;D however, perhaps mathematics scales better than my other subjects so now i'm really boxed!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 28, 2017, 06:20:34 pm
also...i currently do 12 units and am already guessing which of my subjects wont be included in my 10 units for ATAR score as it is unspeakably low low lowww :o...so..i feel that if i work hard to get that subject (mathematics) off its feet i'm only gonna lose time where i could be working for my already better subjects....so should i just be focusing on my better subjects as im pretty sure that bad one will not be included to calculate my atar....if that makes sense?! be v glad of any help  ;D however, perhaps mathematics scales better than my other subjects so now i'm really boxed!


I think the conflict you are having here exemplifies exactly why it just doesn't make sense to neglect any HSC subjects. At the end of the day you just don't know what will happen in the other exams, and having Mathematics as a backup could come in handy.

In my opinion, just work really hard on everything, try to bring 2U up as much as you can bring it up working a sensible amount. Even numbers aside, that way you can say you literally gave everything your best effort ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: bun00 on August 28, 2017, 08:47:03 pm
I think the conflict you are having here exemplifies exactly why it just doesn't make sense to neglect any HSC subjects. At the end of the day you just don't know what will happen in the other exams, and having Mathematics as a backup could come in handy.

In my opinion, just work really hard on everything, try to bring 2U up as much as you can bring it up working a sensible amount. Even numbers aside, that way you can say you literally gave everything your best effort ;D


hokey! thanks stacks for that ;D knew i'd find some advice on here ;)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ~BK~ on August 29, 2017, 10:25:40 am
how differently scaled are mathematics and maths general 2?? :o
i've heard they're really similar now which is annoying those in gen 2 are getting waaay better marks than us in mathematics!!? >:(  ::) ???
thanks

also another question in regard to scaling..... 8)
how different is advanced eng to standard?? i started do it thinking it might push up my atar, but now i srsly wonder!!! ???

Mod Edit: Post merge :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 29, 2017, 02:30:18 pm
how differently scaled are mathematics and maths general 2?? :o
i've heard they're really similar now which is annoying those in gen 2 are getting waaay better marks than us in mathematics!!? >:(  ::) ???
thanks

Mathematics scales a fair bit better than General 2 most of the time - It won't account for huge differences in marks but scaling definitely favours 2U :)

Quote
also another question in regard to scaling..... 8)
how different is advanced eng to standard?? i started do it thinking it might push up my atar, but now i srsly wonder!!! ???

Advanced scales significantly better than Standard in most circumstances, and you are far more likely to get a high mark in Advanced (only 1% of students get a Band 6 in Standard, and no one has ever gotten 99.95 doing Standard English) :)

Don't stress about this stuff too much! You can't change your subjects, so focus on smashing the courses you are doing rather than contemplating hypotheticals! ;D

PS - This document has the actual scaling data if you like!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ~BK~ on August 29, 2017, 05:03:04 pm
thanks heaps for the encouragement jamon (as always!!) ;D
i'm not too worried cos i like all the subjects i do anyway and wouldn't change just to get better marks ;) :D  ;D
the whole atar/scaling/ranking thing is v confusing tho!! :o
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 29, 2017, 05:54:43 pm
thanks heaps for the encouragement jamon (as always!!) ;D
i'm not too worried cos i like all the subjects i do anyway and wouldn't change just to get better marks ;) :D  ;D
the whole atar/scaling/ranking thing is v confusing tho!! :o

It is definitely confusing! But, at the core of it all, it is fair (as close to perfectly fair as you can get, at least) - So as hard as it is, try and trust NESA to do right by you, that's what the system is designed to do ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: dancing phalanges on August 29, 2017, 06:16:15 pm
Hey Jamon,
It's been around 9 months or so since I dropped gennie maths but I've always wondered if I would have gone better atar wise if i kept it. I don't regret my decision as I love french and it's pretty much my favourite subject but if i kept both subjects which would scale better?
French Continuers Mark 81 Rank 1 vs General Maths Mark 92 Rank 6 or so...
Thanks :) (I did this last year with our academic person at school and the atar difference was around 0.5-1)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 30, 2017, 12:01:00 am
Hey Jamon,
It's been around 9 months or so since I dropped gennie maths but I've always wondered if I would have gone better atar wise if i kept it. I don't regret my decision as I love french and it's pretty much my favourite subject but if i kept both subjects which would scale better?
French Continuers Mark 81 Rank 1 vs General Maths Mark 92 Rank 6 or so...
Thanks :) (I did this last year with our academic person at school and the atar difference was around 0.5-1)

Hey! So obviously not worth putting much energy into a decision that you made a year ago, buuut:

- French Continuers scales better than General Math (at least, it did last year) in that Band 5 range where you currently sit.
- Even so, scaling will not compensate for a difference of 10 marks, so if your marks there are indicative of final performance, General Math would be worth more. But not because of scaling, because your mark is higher ;D

Impact on your ATAR would have been pretty slim in either direction, so if you love French it was definitely a good call ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: dancing phalanges on August 30, 2017, 07:39:40 am
Hey! So obviously not worth putting much energy into a decision that you made a year ago, buuut:

- French Continuers scales better than General Math (at least, it did last year) in that Band 5 range where you currently sit.
- Even so, scaling will not compensate for a difference of 10 marks, so if your marks there are indicative of final performance, General Math would be worth more. But not because of scaling, because your mark is higher ;D

Impact on your ATAR would have been pretty slim in either direction, so if you love French it was definitely a good call ;D

Thanks Jamon! :) Yeah I mean I can toss and turn on it but it also would have meant studying for Maths and doing Maths on the day of my Modern trial too so all worked out well!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 30, 2017, 10:14:26 am

Thanks Jamon! :) Yeah I mean I can toss and turn on it but it also would have meant studying for Maths and doing Maths on the day of my Modern trial too so all worked out well!

Definitely a good call - Can't believe they did that double! Poor form NESA
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: diesxel on September 08, 2017, 01:41:04 am
Hello,

so basically my internal marks are looking good for all my subjects (90s) except for biology which I despise and is marked very harshly at my school. I scraped an 80 for my trials, and my overall internal mark is 82.75 right now. Do I still have a chance of getting a solid band 6 in HSC? I don't want biology to be the reason my ATAR is pulled down, I only do 10 units so biology is definitely going to count.

Honestly regret taking biology so much, I don't know what I was thinking as an english/humanities student!!!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Natasha.97 on September 08, 2017, 08:20:14 am
Hello,

so basically my internal marks are looking good for all my subjects (90s) except for biology which I despise and is marked very harshly at my school. I scraped an 80 for my trials, and my overall internal mark is 82.75 right now. Do I still have a chance of getting a solid band 6 in HSC? I don't want biology to be the reason my ATAR is pulled down, I only do 10 units so biology is definitely going to count.

Honestly regret taking biology so much, I don't know what I was thinking as an english/humanities student!!!

Hi!

This post goes into more detail, but essentially, internal marks aren't an indicator of what band you'll get. It depends on how well your cohort performs in comparison to other schools (and as you've said biology is marked very harshly, your cohorts' marks will be moderated up).

Hope this helps
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: _____ on September 14, 2017, 06:43:27 pm
I've tried reading the UAC document (nearly died of boredom) and then Jamon's guide (much better) but I still don't entirely understand how the process works. So I've got a few dumb questions:

1. Is the "HSC mark" you put into an ATAR calculator scaled down based on the other candidates performance in other subjects? So if I get 98% in the IPT exam (first in the class) does this get scaled back to like 90-93 because IPT is easy or does my HSC mark stay at 98%?

2. How are state ranks calculated? Are they basically your final exam mark after it has been reallocated based on your internal rank? What happens if there's a tie?

3. Are there any exceptions to the reallocation of external marks based on internal rank? Say I get 85% in the final business studies exam as first in the class but whoever is number two somehow gets 98%. Do I still get his mark? If it's a state top 10, do I get the state rank? I feel like I'm misunderstanding how internal ranks play into this.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 14, 2017, 07:07:11 pm
I've tried reading the UAC document (nearly died of boredom) and then Jamon's guide (much better) but I still don't entirely understand how the process works. So I've got a few dumb questions:

No dumb questions my friend ;D

Quote
1. Is the "HSC mark" you put into an ATAR calculator scaled down based on the other candidates performance in other subjects? So if I get 98% in the IPT exam (first in the class) does this get scaled back to like 90-93 because IPT is easy or does my HSC mark stay at 98%?

So you score 98 in the exam after alignment. Since you are 1st, this is also your internal mark, so your HSC Mark averages to 98. This is what appears on your credentials. The scaling of the mark by UAC for calculation of your ATAR is done after the fact and purely for the purposes of calculating the ATAR, you never see the scaled number :)

Quote
2. How are state ranks calculated? Are they basically your final exam mark after it has been reallocated based on your internal rank? What happens if there's a tie?

It goes off your final HSC mark, the average of internal moderated and external aligned. If there is a tie (quoted from NESA):

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):

- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.


Quote
3. Are there any exceptions to the reallocation of external marks based on internal rank? Say I get 85% in the final business studies exam as first in the class but whoever is number two somehow gets 98%. Do I still get his mark? If it's a state top 10, do I get the state rank? I feel like I'm misunderstanding how internal ranks play into this.

There are limitations, but I believe the limitations are on the low end. So you should get the 98 as your internal moderated mark, which would be averaged with your aligned exam mark of 85. HSC Mark for that course would be (98+85)/2=92. Chances are that mark wouldn't give you a state rank, even though the exam mark was 98, the final HSC mark would be 92 for you and likely only slightly higher for the 98 scorer - Depends on the class :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: _____ on September 14, 2017, 09:13:17 pm
No dumb questions my friend ;D

So you score 98 in the exam after alignment. Since you are 1st, this is also your internal mark, so your HSC Mark averages to 98. This is what appears on your credentials. The scaling of the mark by UAC for calculation of your ATAR is done after the fact and purely for the purposes of calculating the ATAR, you never see the scaled number :)

It goes off your final HSC mark, the average of internal moderated and external aligned. If there is a tie (quoted from NESA):

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):

- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.


There are limitations, but I believe the limitations are on the low end. So you should get the 98 as your internal moderated mark, which would be averaged with your aligned exam mark of 85. HSC Mark for that course would be (98+85)/2=92. Chances are that mark wouldn't give you a state rank, even though the exam mark was 98, the final HSC mark would be 92 for you and likely only slightly higher for the 98 scorer - Depends on the class :)

Ahh that helps a lot.

So that average of internal/external I've heard being talked about is actually an average of your moderated internal (based on the performance of the cohort) and the aligned external. This then becomes the HSC mark, which is then changed again (scaled) for ATAR calculation based on the difficulty of the course. That makes sense.(if I got it about right lol).

Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 14, 2017, 10:08:16 pm
Yep, you got it - Glad I could help! ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on September 28, 2017, 07:10:17 am
"The top assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the top examination mark in the cohort, and the bottom assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the lowest examination mark in the cohort (or if not exact, very close)"

Does this mean that If I get the mark top in my school of  mark of around 95, then I don't have to worry about being scaled down. Because at my school we tend to have marks jump from 90%, to 53% to 30% to the occasional 10%. This happens in classes like physics, chem, and ext1 and 2 maths where we only have handful of students (usually 3-8 students per class).

I am really worried about the raw school assessment mark scaling, but I am hoping that If study hard and I do well enough then it wont effect me.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 28, 2017, 09:02:49 am
"The top assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the top examination mark in the cohort, and the bottom assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the lowest examination mark in the cohort (or if not exact, very close)"

Does this mean that If I get the mark top in my school of  mark of around 95, then I don't have to worry about being scaled down. Because at my school we tend to have marks jump from 90%, to 53% to 30% to the occasional 10%. This happens in classes like physics, chem, and ext1 and 2 maths where we only have handful of students (usually 3-8 students per class).

I am really worried about the raw school assessment mark scaling, but I am hoping that If study hard and I do well enough then it wont effect me.

Yep, so if you have come first internally then you are guaranteed to get the highest possible moderated mark, so it then comes completely down to your own exam performance :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mohanedibrahim1 on October 01, 2017, 05:39:21 pm
Hello, if i get band 6 in all my subject, but for English i really mess up because that is my weakest subject how much would that have an impact on my atar thanks.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on October 01, 2017, 05:42:39 pm
Hello, if i get band 6 in all my subject, but for English i really mess up because that is my weakest subject how much would that have an impact on my atar thanks.

It's hard to say for sure, but one poor subject is unlikely to have a huge impact - You should not put much energy into worrying about it and just focus on making your mark for English as good as it can be :) you can definitely get a really strong ATAR without a Band 6 in English :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mohanedibrahim1 on October 01, 2017, 07:52:07 pm
Thanks jamon, and one more thing should i just focus on my other subjects, expect English for i just gave up on it and thanks.  :-X
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on October 01, 2017, 08:14:52 pm

Thanks jamon, and one more thing should i just focus on my other subjects, expect English for i just gave up on it and thanks.  :-X

You want all your subjects to collectively be as high as they can, so you should definitely not give up on English! Keep pushing as hard as you can
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Potatohater on October 14, 2017, 11:56:14 am
For English my estimate is that I'll probably get a band 4, I can try and get it up to a band 5 but it's so soon there's no garuntees. I think I should be able to get a band 6 (or high band 5) in everything else. So what I'm wondering is do you think I can I still get a 95+ ATAR with such a comparitibley low English mark?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on October 14, 2017, 12:29:36 pm
For English my estimate is that I'll probably get a band 4, I can try and get it up to a band 5 but it's so soon there's no garuntees. I think I should be able to get a band 6 (or high band 5) in everything else. So what I'm wondering is do you think I can I still get a 95+ ATAR with such a comparitibley low English mark?

If you've got a Band 4 in English you'll need some decently high Band 6's to cancel it out! Especially since you've got a few subjects that don't start paying you nicely in terms of scaling until the high range. It's definitely possible, so push really hard in all your subjects! :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: olliesfield on October 22, 2017, 08:24:11 pm
what would happen if you have really good internal marks/ranks but did not do fantastic in HSC?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jakesilove on October 22, 2017, 08:29:01 pm
what would happen if you have really good internal marks/ranks but did not do fantastic in HSC?

The reason that the scoring is split up between internal and external marks is, in part, because most people will do exactly that! Maybe a person does really well internally, but not so well externally, or vice versa. The marks are moderated to ensure you are given a fair overall score. If you did brilliantly in internal assessments, then congratulations! This will mean that your 'assessment mark' will be quite high. If you then don't do so well in the HSC exam itself, then they'll take the average of your internal mark (high) and external mark (less high) to get your overall mark (pretty bloody high).

Don't stress about this, because to be honest there's nothing you can do about it! Just forge on, keep studying, and best of luck :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: A1P on October 22, 2017, 11:42:51 pm
what would happen if you have really good internal marks/ranks but did not do fantastic in HSC?

It depends. If you and your cohort all have good internal marks and all did not do fantastic in HSC, your final mark will be close to your exam mark because everyone's internal marks would be adjusted down to the cohort's exam levels.

What you should hope is you're the only one whose HSC isn't fantastic, for your internal mark not to be adjusted down too much.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on November 01, 2017, 06:25:26 pm
Today I heard that if person A consistently gets first in all internal assessment tasks, but person B gets higher than person A in the trials, Person A will get person B's mark.
Is this true?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on November 01, 2017, 09:56:47 pm
Today I heard that if person A consistently gets first in all internal assessment tasks, but person B gets higher than person A in the trials, Person A will get person B's mark.
Is this true?

Person A would get Person B's mark not in the Trials, but in the HSC, and only for their internal moderated mark, not their examination mark.

A little complex, this guide has the process in depth if you are interested :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: kauac on April 07, 2018, 07:40:35 am
Hi...
Just a random question I've been thinking about...

Why are English raw HSC marks expressed with 2 decimal places?
Whereas, most of the other subjects are just a whole number?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: RuiAce on April 07, 2018, 08:22:35 am
Hi...
Just a random question I've been thinking about...

Why are English raw HSC marks expressed with 2 decimal places?
Whereas, most of the other subjects are just a whole number?
It's because the English final exams aggregate to a total of 105, whereas the mark you're reported is always out of 100
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: kauac on April 07, 2018, 09:37:08 am
It's because the English final exams aggregate to a total of 105, whereas the mark you're reported is always out of 100

Ah, ok... That makes sense...
(Only just worked out that paper 2 is out of 60 marks haha  ;D)
Thanks so much!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on June 11, 2018, 03:12:44 pm
I always believed that my HSC Mark for a subject would be made up of an average between my internal assessment Marks and my HSC Mark for that subject.

I have recently been told that the HSC doesn't take into account what your internal assessment Mark was, they only want the distance between the ranks. So my HSC Mark for a subject will be made up of a moderation of the mark then I received in the actual HSC test, with no input from my internal assessment Mark

Is this true?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on June 11, 2018, 05:00:05 pm
I always believed that my HSC Mark for a subject would be made up of an average between my internal assessment Marks and my HSC Mark for that subject.

I have recently been told that the HSC doesn't take into account what your internal assessment Mark was, they only want the distance between the ranks. So my HSC Mark for a subject will be made up of a moderation of the mark then I received in the actual HSC test, with no input from my internal assessment Mark

Is this true?

Yes it is (essentially) - So the internal marks matter, but yeah, only in the sense that they establish rank and relative difference ;D

This guide explains it in detail! :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: emilyygeorgexx on June 11, 2018, 05:45:00 pm
Hey!

Such a random question but is is possible to get a 99 ATAR without a Band 6 in English????
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on June 11, 2018, 05:47:28 pm
Hey!

Such a random question but is is possible to get a 99 ATAR without a Band 6 in English????

Hey! Random questions are the best ones ;D yes, it absolutely is - But you'll need some stellar results elsewhere to make up the difference :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Opengangs on June 11, 2018, 05:55:59 pm
Hey!

Such a random question but is is possible to get a 99 ATAR without a Band 6 in English????
As jamon has already said, yes! My friend got 84 for English (Advanced) but band 6's everywhere else and he ended up with an ATAR of 99.60. So even if English isn't your strong suit, then you're gonna need those top marks in your other subjects to pull you up :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on June 11, 2018, 06:00:52 pm
Yes it is (essentially) - So the internal marks matter, but yeah, only in the sense that they establish rank and relative difference ;D

This guide explains it in detail! :)


Thank you!!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on June 15, 2018, 11:39:16 pm
Do the HSC moderating wizards align our marks with our ranks for Major Work based subjects such as English Extension 2?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on June 15, 2018, 11:59:33 pm
Do the HSC moderating wizards align our marks with our ranks for Major Work based subjects such as English Extension 2?

Indeed they do! The 'exam' marks just come from the major work and reflection statement instead of an actual examination ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: emilyygeorgexx on June 20, 2018, 10:44:56 pm
Hello!

I am back with another random question, really says something about how my brain works late at night :)

This is literally out of pure curiosity, but someone who came first in the course, would their internal mark have to match their external mark? Eg. they get 98 for internal and external.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on June 20, 2018, 11:27:41 pm
Hello!

I am back with another random question, really says something about how my brain works late at night :)

This is literally out of pure curiosity, but someone who came first in the course, would their internal mark have to match their external mark? Eg. they get 98 for internal and external.

Assuming they also get the highest mark in the exam, yes it would! They get moderated to the highest mark, so if that is also their exam mark then the two would be identical ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: chemstries on June 24, 2018, 08:41:01 pm
Hey,

So trials are coming up next term week 3.
Currently my ranks +average marks
ADV English ( 58/88)- 70%  really bad
Maths (  28/57) - 75%
Biology ( 27/55) - 70%
Chemistry is really bad ( 20/28) - 65%
PDHPE 11/25 - 80%
Religion (41/ 85) - 80%

My atar aim is around 95 but I'm happy with above 90 ( my school is in the top 100). If I can boost my marks to above 90-95% in my trials ( I've collated all my mistakes and feedback from previous assessments) would it boost up my ranks aswell? If someone can spare some time to give advice on spacing out prep for my subjects and the main tasks to focus for core subjects like english and math, that would be great ( pls be brutally honest if you have to)
Cheers
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jessica mo on June 24, 2018, 10:48:52 pm
What if in a small class of 9 there are 2-4 students that are scoring less than 30 % for their exams and assessments and the top 4 get like 70-75 % for exams and assessments. How would those students that are failing affect and moderate my marks and the top peoples' marks?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on June 24, 2018, 10:55:26 pm

Hey,

So trials are coming up next term week 3.
Currently my ranks +average marks
ADV English ( 58/88)- 70%  really bad
Maths (  28/57) - 75%
Biology ( 27/55) - 70%
Chemistry is really bad ( 20/28) - 65%
PDHPE 11/25 - 80%
Religion (41/ 85) - 80%

My atar aim is around 95 but I'm happy with above 90 ( my school is in the top 100). If I can boost my marks to above 90-95% in my trials ( I've collated all my mistakes and feedback from previous assessments) would it boost up my ranks aswell? If someone can spare some time to give advice on spacing out prep for my subjects and the main tasks to focus for core subjects like english and math, that would be great ( pls be brutally honest if you have to)
Cheers

Hey! Some results like that for Trials would certainly boost your ranks (unless you think everyone is going to be getting 100% around you). Any strong result is going to be helpful, and certainly set you in good stead to achieve your ATAR goal.

In terms of prep, I think the key is to be organised. Nothing fancy, just make sure you’ve got time for working on all your subjects, allocate the hours at the start of the week (or whatever), and go to town. Focus on your weaknesses identified from previous tasks, make sure you don’t lose marks there again
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on June 24, 2018, 10:59:10 pm

What if in a small class of 9 there are 2-4 students that are scoring less than 30 % for their exams and assessments and the top 4 get like 70-75 % for exams and assessments. How would those students that are failing affect and moderate my marks and the top peoples' marks?

The same process would apply, but if that Top 4 people also got the highest exam marks, chances are the lower group wouldn’t affect them too much. Those in that Top 4 would sort of moderate with each other. Remember that the relative differences stay the same through moderation, so the Top 4 are likely to stay far ahead of the bottom 4
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: dermite on August 07, 2018, 05:13:15 pm
Assuming they also get the highest mark in the exam, yes it would! They get moderated to the highest mark, so if that is also their exam mark then the two would be identical ;D

say if rank 1 gets an 85 in the exam and rank 15 gets 95 (lets say this is the highest mark of the cohort)
does this mean rank 1 gets the 95 mark?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 07, 2018, 07:23:07 pm
say if rank 1 gets an 85 in the exam and rank 15 gets 95 (lets say this is the highest mark of the cohort)
does this mean rank 1 gets the 95 mark?


Hi! Yes, that would be their moderated assessment mark. Then that would be averaged with their exam mark of 85 - Their HSC mark for the subject would be 90 :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: dermite on August 07, 2018, 09:02:44 pm
Hi! Yes, that would be their moderated assessment mark. Then that would be averaged with their exam mark of 85 - Their HSC mark for the subject would be 90 :)

I'm currently around the mid-high 70s for nearly all my subjects (expect IPT, where im in the 90s).
If i get a 90 in the HSC, does this mean my mark is an 80?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 07, 2018, 10:07:52 pm
I'm currently around the mid-high 70s for nearly all my subjects (expect IPT, where im in the 90s).
If i get a 90 in the HSC, does this mean my mark is an 80?

Not necessarily, those marks you have now are internal. If your cohort does well then you could be higher than that - It just totally depends on that final exam and how everyone goes :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: akirabaigent on August 13, 2018, 07:51:49 pm
Hi Jamon,
I just read the ATARnotes long article on how scaling works but I am still confused on what mark ends up getting scaled down due to your rank? For example, if I were coming 3rd in my internal rank for chemistry, yet got the top mark in the HSC chemistry exam, would that be taken away and would I be given the third highest mark? However, from article I thought it said that the overall internal mark for chemistry was the one that got rearranged, yet wouldn't it already be in place because this is what the ranks are based on?
Also, in terms of your cohort bringing up or down your marks, what mark is this for? Is it for your overall atar?
Thank you.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 13, 2018, 11:15:46 pm
Hi Jamon,
I just read the ATARnotes long article on how scaling works but I am still confused on what mark ends up getting scaled down due to your rank? For example, if I were coming 3rd in my internal rank for chemistry, yet got the top mark in the HSC chemistry exam, would that be taken away and would I be given the third highest mark? However, from article I thought it said that the overall internal mark for chemistry was the one that got rearranged, yet wouldn't it already be in place because this is what the ranks are based on?
Also, in terms of your cohort bringing up or down your marks, what mark is this for? Is it for your overall atar?
Thank you.

Hello!

The mark affected by rank is your internal mark. In the scenario you propose, your exam mark would be yours (the highest). Your moderated internal mark would be (it is more complicated than this but let's keep it simple) close to the 3rd highest exam mark on the day. The average of those two scores (exam and moderated) is your HSC mark for the course.

The internal mark itself (from assessments) is useless, it is only the ranks and how far apart/close they are that makes a difference :)

The cohort of the subject affects the scaling of the course, this is UAC's playing field and happens right at the end. Your school's cohort only affects the internal moderated marks, as above. Your ATAR is unaffected by your cohort, it is purely a rank telling you where you sit in the state at the end of the process ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: LadyWhoAsksTooMuchQuestions on August 14, 2018, 11:47:47 am
ATAR/SCALING Q+A THREAD

To go straight to posts from 2018, click here.

What is this thread for?
If you have any questions about things like scaling, ranks, moderation or alignment - This is the place to ask! Why spend hours reading NESA documents when we can do it for you ;) 👌

To ask a question or make a post, you will first need an ATAR Notes account. You probably already have one, but if you don't, it takes about four seconds to sign up - and completely free!


Sooooo I'm pretty sure I'm getting Band 1 for Cafs, not even. The trial exam was soooooo difficult I felt so down about my performance. The questions were so hard that I don't even remember looking at them in class. Not to mention English Standard! For the two essays which are worth 5%, I COMPLETELY switched the related texts. For the Owen, I analysed 4 poems.

I do not know what to do. Only exam I found easy was senior science. Watch me fail in the HSC.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 14, 2018, 07:01:33 pm

Sooooo I'm pretty sure I'm getting Band 1 for Cafs, not even. The trial exam was soooooo difficult I felt so down about my performance. The questions were so hard that I don't even remember looking at them in class. Not to mention English Standard! For the two essays which are worth 5%, I COMPLETELY switched the related texts. For the Owen, I analysed 4 poems.

I do not know what to do. Only exam I found easy was senior science. Watch me fail in the HSC.

You'll be okay! The Trials are almost always harder than the actual HSC for almost everyone who does them. As long as you learn from what went wrong and actively work to address the issues, you'll get a strong HSC result, which is the most important thing ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: akirabaigent on August 14, 2018, 07:53:21 pm
Hello!

The mark affected by rank is your internal mark. In the scenario you propose, your exam mark would be yours (the highest). Your moderated internal mark would be (it is more complicated than this but let's keep it simple) close to the 3rd highest exam mark on the day. The average of those two scores (exam and moderated) is your HSC mark for the course.

The internal mark itself (from assessments) is useless, it is only the ranks and how far apart/close they are that makes a difference :)

The cohort of the subject affects the scaling of the course, this is UAC's playing field and happens right at the end. Your school's cohort only affects the internal moderated marks, as above. Your ATAR is unaffected by your cohort, it is purely a rank telling you where you sit in the state at the end of the process ;D

I see! Thank you so much it makes sense now :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ilovemycat on August 21, 2018, 09:58:11 am
hey all,,

 just wondering, are state ranks decided upon based solely on exam mark (as in hsc performance only, no internals) or the final hsc mark (as in hsc performance + internals avergage, after moderation)

meaning, if your rank is not the best internally, but you manage to smash the hsc hypothetically could you get a state rank? i imagine at least a hundred people probably get the same highest raw mark in the hsc exam though? hmmm.

 just asking out of curiosity. :)

thank youuu :)))
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 21, 2018, 06:33:48 pm
hey all,,

 just wondering, are state ranks decided upon based solely on exam mark (as in hsc performance only, no internals) or the final hsc mark (as in hsc performance + internals avergage, after moderation)

meaning, if your rank is not the best internally, but you manage to smash the hsc hypothetically could you get a state rank? i imagine at least a hundred people probably get the same highest raw mark in the hsc exam though? hmmm.

 just asking out of curiosity. :)

thank youuu :)))

Hey there! It is in fact the HSC mark for a given course. Yes, there are lots of ties ;D as to how those are resolved, this is taken from NESA's website:

If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):

1. take an average of each student's exam mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place

2. take an average of each student's exam mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places

3. if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.


It is absolutely possible to state rank without being first in a subject. I came 2nd in Legal Studies at my school, but I state ranked while 1st place did not - The exam is what everything is based off of so it is important to do well there ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ilovemycat on August 21, 2018, 06:51:28 pm
thank you heaps jamon!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: envisagator on August 21, 2018, 07:10:53 pm
Hi Jamon, just a quick question, I'm currently 4th in physics, is it possible for me to get >90 in physics (HSC mark) and potentially >95 if neither 2nd and 3rd gets a band 6 but first does??. The difference between 4th and third is like 2 marks
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 21, 2018, 09:56:39 pm
Hi Jamon, just a quick question, I'm currently 4th in physics, is it possible for me to get >90 in physics (HSC mark) and potentially >95 if neither 2nd and 3rd gets a band 6 but first does??. The difference between 4th and third is like 2 marks

Definitely possible! If you got a super high HSC Exam mark, say (going to the extreme), 98, then your internal mark could be moderated 82 and you'd still get a Band 6. Something like that could lead to you getting a Band 6 even if 2nd and 3rd don't.

If you do really well in the HSC exam, absolutely possible :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on August 22, 2018, 07:07:35 pm
If I'm the only person in a class, does that mean that my HSC raw mark will be just the average of my internal score and my score in the HSC? 
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: holky on August 22, 2018, 07:25:35 pm
Following on from mxrylyn, I'm in a class with only one other student, so how does that impact scaling and marks and stuff? Unrelated note, can't wait to be the only two people sitting in our school hall during the HSC exam lmao
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 22, 2018, 10:58:26 pm
If I'm the only person in a class, does that mean that my HSC raw mark will be just the average of my internal score and my score in the HSC? 

It means (unless there is another process for classes of one I'm not aware of) that your HSC mark will be the same as your aligned mark in the exam. In other words, your HSC exam alone will determine your mark, I believe :)

Following on from mxrylyn, I'm in a class with only one other student, so how does that impact scaling and marks and stuff? Unrelated note, can't wait to be the only two people sitting in our school hall during the HSC exam lmao

Two possible scenarios!

- If ranked 1st gets the highest mark in the exam, then both HSC marks will be the same as the aligned exam scores. It will be like the other didn't exist.
- If ranked 2nd gets the highest mark in the exam, then the two students get the same mark, namely the average of the two HSC exam marks!

What these examples should show is that internal marks are meaningless in isolation, it is the ranks that matter ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: clovvy on August 29, 2018, 12:14:21 pm
I know this is very unlikely and I have never heard before... but lets say the circumstances look like this
internal marks:
A-86
B-82
C-74
D-70
E-68
F-65
G-60
H-55
I-50
J-48
K-44
L-40
M-39
N-35
O-30
P-25

In this case, person N has suffered from 3 mental disorders and have been hospitalised before which impact assessments remendously, but when the externals come, it looks like this:
A-98
B-96
C-88
D-82
E-78
F-77
G-75
K-72
L-68
M-66
N-93
O-50
P-44

What will happen to person N if he have had disruptions in exams and was granted special provisions during the HSC (I am currently in similar situation as this for physics except I don't know my marks and ranks because I have to get my results through the principal, apparently for my own safety in case I have a meltdown over my marks)....
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 29, 2018, 06:48:55 pm
Hey! So N's special provisions may affect how their mark is aligned, but it won't change the moderation process. Their aligned mark of 93 in the exam will be averaged with their moderated mark, which is likely to be reasonably close to the bottom of the aligned mark range, but it's impossible to say exactly where that could sit so I'm not going to hazard it :)

Analysing situations like this won't benefit you my friend. You need to abstract from it and focus on the work :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on August 29, 2018, 06:52:21 pm
Hey,

What happens if I am ranked 1st in a class of two with a mark of 83 and the other person, who has a mark of 48 beats me in the HSC. With the 50-50 rule, will it change our ranks?

Edit:
Follow up question. Do state ranks consider the internal assessment Mark, or are they only based on the performance in the actual HSC exam?

Edit 2:
Follow up, follow up question.
If "The top assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the top examination mark in the cohort", which one copies which one. What happens if the top assessment Mark is greater than the top examination Mark. Or if the examination Mark is greater than the top assessment Mark. Which one becomes the mark question mark

:)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: clovvy on August 29, 2018, 07:36:13 pm
Hey! So N's special provisions may affect how their mark is aligned, but it won't change the moderation process. Their aligned mark of 93 in the exam will be averaged with their moderated mark, which is likely to be reasonably close to the bottom of the aligned mark range, but it's impossible to say exactly where that could sit so I'm not going to hazard it :)

Analysing situations like this won't benefit you my friend. You need to abstract from it and focus on the work :)
Than that is extremely disheartening...  At least I am working consistently after trials despite the shitty feelings of bombing internals very very badly because of panic attacks etc...
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 29, 2018, 08:50:01 pm
What happens if I am ranked 1st in a class of two with a mark of 83 and the other person, who has a mark of 48 beats me in the HSC. With the 50-50 rule, will it change our ranks?

So in that situation, your marks would both be the same - The average of your HSC exam marks. Because your internal mark would moderate to the highest exam mark (theirs), and their internal mark would moderate to the lowest exam mark (yours). Provided you are happy with your performance in the HSC, this shouldn't worry you at all! :)



Quote
Follow up question. Do state ranks consider the internal assessment Mark, or are they only based on the performance in the actual HSC exam?

HSC marks, so moderated internals as well! If there is a tie, there are other procedures:

Other Procedures (Taken From NESA Website)
If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):

1. take an average of each student's exam mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place

2. take an average of each student's exam mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places

3. if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.

Quote
Follow up, follow up question.
If "The top assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the top examination mark in the cohort", which one copies which one. What happens if the top assessment Mark is greater than the top examination Mark. Or if the examination Mark is greater than the top assessment Mark. Which one becomes the mark question mark

The assessment mark becomes the exam mark no matter what. So if the HSC marks are lower than the internal marks, you still get the HSC marks sliding in instead. This is to discourage schools giving higher internal marks to advantage their students - The system bases it all off the exam itself :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on August 31, 2018, 11:30:55 am
What happens if

Internal :
B= 95
A = 94.3

External: situation 1
A = 95
B = 85

External Situation 2
A = 95
B = 93
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on August 31, 2018, 07:00:22 pm
Hi! So...

Quote
External: situation 1
A = 95
B = 85

A: Internal = 85, External = 95, HSC Mark = 90
B: Internal = 95, External = 85, HSC Mark = 90

Quote
External Situation 2
A = 95
B = 93

A: Internal = 93, External = 95, HSC Mark = 94
B: Internal = 95, External = 93, HSC Mark = 94
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on August 31, 2018, 07:11:50 pm
Hi! So...

A: Internal = 85, External = 95, HSC Mark = 90
B: Internal = 95, External = 85, HSC Mark = 90

A: Internal = 93, External = 95, HSC Mark = 94
B: Internal = 95, External = 93, HSC Mark = 94

Thank you so much!
I am person A. I was far ahead in English and just got the worst trial marl ever for my discovery essay as my head teacher didnt like me doing a kids movie for my related text 😬. So im worried about how bieng 2nd will effect the moderation process, even if its only by 0.7
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 01, 2018, 12:00:43 am
Thank you so much!
I am person A. I was far ahead in English and just got the worst trial marl ever for my discovery essay as my head teacher didnt like me doing a kids movie for my related text 😬. So im worried about how bieng 2nd will effect the moderation process, even if its only by 0.7

Cool! Don't stress about Trials, it happens! In a class of two, you have to work together, so just make sure you are giving your peer a hand and that they do the same for you. It is in your best interests to work together ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ilovemycat on September 03, 2018, 04:35:27 pm
hi jamon, one more question.
for extension 2, im coming equal first out of 15 or so people. ive heard that this means our final external mark wil be the average of both our individual external marks. so does this mean im negatively affected if the other person (or vic versa) gets a really low external mark (which is scarily possible due to the subjectivity of the course)

thank you!!  :D ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ilovemycat on September 03, 2018, 06:12:48 pm

HSC marks, so moderated internals as well! If there is a tie, there are other procedures:


hi jamon - does ^^^ that mean that state ranks are dependant on internals?? idk but i remember someone saying its purely based on the hsc exam unless there is a tie (very likely considering hsc tests the whole state) in which case internals are considered also.

thank youuu :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 03, 2018, 06:36:47 pm

hi jamon, one more question.
for extension 2, im coming equal first out of 15 or so people. ive heard that this means our final external mark wil be the average of both our individual external marks. so does this mean im negatively affected if the other person (or vic versa) gets a really low external mark (which is possible merely due to

thank you!!  :D ;D

My understanding is that you both get the highest exam mark! You definitely don’t get the average of your exam marks, 1st place is guaranteed highest mark in the room as their internal mark (so for two of you, I assume that means you both get that!)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 03, 2018, 06:38:35 pm

hi jamon - does ^^^ that mean that state ranks are dependant on internals?? idk but i remember someone saying its purely based on the hsc exam unless there is a tie (very likely considering hsc tests the whole state) in which case internals are considered also.

thank youuu :)

That someone is incorrect but it’s a common misconception! It is the HSC mark for the course, see the section at the top of the Top Achiever’s List:

http://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/portal/nesa/11-12/hsc/results-certificates/merit-lists/top-achievers-in-course
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ilovemycat on September 03, 2018, 11:33:07 pm
thank you heaps!  :) :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on September 28, 2018, 01:21:53 pm
Hello!

What would happen if, there were two people and a class and they are approximately 20% apart some one is at 65% and the other is at 51%,
what happens if in the HSC the one with 65% gets 95 and the one with 51% gets 40%?


also, as the person with 65%, is my moderated mark gong to be just whatever i got in the exam, or an average of both as i have been told many different things from teachers at school.

Thank youuu :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on September 28, 2018, 05:58:27 pm

Hello!

What would happen if, there were two people and a class and they are approximately 20% apart some one is at 65% and the other is at 51%,
what happens if in the HSC the one with 65% gets 95 and the one with 51% gets 40%?


also, as the person with 65%, is my moderated mark gong to be just whatever i got in the exam, or an average of both as i have been told many different things from teachers at school.

Thank youuu :)

Really hard to say on that first one, it depends on the rest of the class! Your moderated mark for internals is a super complicated thing but it definitely ISN’T just what you get in the exam.

https://atarnotes.com/how-does-scaling-work/ —> This guide explains it all!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: mxrylyn on September 29, 2018, 12:41:23 pm
Really hard to say on that first one, it depends on the rest of the class! Your moderated mark for internals is a super complicated thing but it definitely ISN’T just what you get in the exam.

https://atarnotes.com/how-does-scaling-work/ —> This guide explains it all!

Thank you!
It's just the two of us in that class so i thought there might have been some wierd rulefor when its only two people :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Caleb Campion on November 01, 2018, 09:27:12 pm
Hey there 🙂
I just had a question about how to use ATAR Calculators. I was wondering do we put in what we think our raw marks will be or the HSC reported/ alligned marks we get the day before our ATAR?
So lets say (since I'm ranked first in all my subjects), I think I got 75/100 raw for 4U maths, do I put 75 in the HSC marks spot on the atar calculator, or do I put the 89/90 that it would be alligned to?
Because it makes a huge difference to the atar calculation if I were to put in my alligned marks, rather than the raw. Ie, I think I will get around 93/100 for legal studies raw, but that would be alligned to probably 96+, and gives a huge boost to the atar calculation
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on November 01, 2018, 10:43:04 pm
Hey there 🙂
I just had a question about how to use ATAR Calculators. I was wondering do we put in what we think our raw marks will be or the HSC reported/ alligned marks we get the day before our ATAR?
So lets say (since I'm ranked first in all my subjects), I think I got 75/100 raw for 4U maths, do I put 75 in the HSC marks spot on the atar calculator, or do I put the 89/90 that it would be alligned to?
Because it makes a huge difference to the atar calculation if I were to put in my alligned marks, rather than the raw. Ie, I think I will get around 93/100 for legal studies raw, but that would be alligned to probably 96+, and gives a huge boost to the atar calculation

The day before your ATAR you will have your aligned/moderated marks, and those are what should go into those calculators for the most accurate (but still essentially guessing) estimate! You can't just put what you think your exam mark will align to, because moderation also plays into it and that is almost impossible to predict!

Honestly, I'd not be putting stuff into an ATAR calculator right now. Why torture yourself with false hopes or unnecessary doom and glooms? Enjoy a month and a half of not needing to know anything about your marks, try and separate yourself from it!! It's all guesswork anyway, so I'd personally try and avoid It :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Caleb Campion on November 01, 2018, 11:14:32 pm
The day before your ATAR you will have your aligned/moderated marks, and those are what should go into those calculators for the most accurate (but still essentially guessing) estimate! You can't just put what you think your exam mark will align to, because moderation also plays into it and that is almost impossible to predict!

Honestly, I'd not be putting stuff into an ATAR calculator right now. Why torture yourself with false hopes or unnecessary doom and glooms? Enjoy a month and a half of not needing to know anything about your marks, try and separate yourself from it!! It's all guesswork anyway, so I'd personally try and avoid It :)

Sure thing :) Thanks Jamon :))
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: yolande on November 06, 2018, 07:23:19 am
i got sick during the HSC examinations. I had DR Certs and illness/misadventure forms. I studied my butt off for a year and am really worried I have blown the exams. I was well for my 2 English papers and better for the final extension 1 paper, will they look at these results to see how well I could have done in
 the others? Can I have faith in the system that my illness will be taken into account? How does it work?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on November 06, 2018, 07:40:52 am
i got sick during the HSC examinations. I had DR Certs and illness/misadventure forms. I studied my butt off for a year and am really worried I have blown the exams. I was well for my 2 English papers and better for the final extension 1 paper, will they look at these results to see how well I could have done in
 the others? Can I have faith in the system that my illness will be taken into account? How does it work?

Hey! I have no idea about specifically how it works,  but it definitely does work. I had a friend apply for illness/misadventure for her General Maths exam and she was fine. The estimates, I imagine, would use the performance of your cohort along with your rank to give you an estimate! But I'm not totally sure.

You will absolutely be fine - Try not to worry! :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: holky on November 06, 2018, 08:40:01 am
i got sick during the HSC examinations. I had DR Certs and illness/misadventure forms. I studied my butt off for a year and am really worried I have blown the exams. I was well for my 2 English papers and better for the final extension 1 paper, will they look at these results to see how well I could have done in
 the others? Can I have faith in the system that my illness will be taken into account? How does it work?
Hey, I had a friend last year who didn't sit any of her exams bc of her health and her exam and assessment mark were the same, I think she said she got an estimste based on her assessment mark and rank
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: elewisdando on January 13, 2019, 11:14:53 pm
I'm the only one in my school doing French extension, so does that mean that my internal assessments wouldn't really count, because my rank is already determined?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on January 14, 2019, 08:14:51 am
I'm the only one in my school doing French extension, so does that mean that my internal assessments wouldn't really count, because my rank is already determined?

Howdy! I have always wondered how this works, because the stuff I've read would suggest that, yes, the internal stuff won't count because you are guaranteed first place. But that just seems strange!! I'm honestly not 100% sure either way - Has anyone reading this heard anything about this situation, perhaps someone who has studied a course by themselves?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: darcyynic on January 14, 2019, 10:49:10 am
Howdy! I have always wondered how this works, because the stuff I've read would suggest that, yes, the internal stuff won't count because you are guaranteed first place. But that just seems strange!! I'm honestly not 100% sure either way - Has anyone reading this heard anything about this situation, perhaps someone who has studied a course by themselves?

I was in two classes by myself (both extension subjects) and can confirm that essentially the internal assessments didn't matter in the end – I received my exam / Major Work mark as both my external and internal mark (which obviously averaged out to be the same!)

I was told, however, that it's best not to think of it that way for several reasons. First of all, if you believe that your internal marks don't matter, you're less likely to study as hard throughout the year and you'll be severely disadvantaged in terms of study hours by the time you get to the exam. Secondly, I was told that if there is a significant gap (caused by if you didn't do an assessment or didn't try) between your internal assessment mark and your examination mark, NESA can look into it.

I hope this helps. Basically, it's good news! You don't have to worry about getting those extra few marks to secure a high rank, you can just focus on doing your personal best. Just make sure to keep yourself motivated as you won't have any healthy competition. :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: kauac on January 14, 2019, 11:33:12 am
Howdy! I have always wondered how this works, because the stuff I've read would suggest that, yes, the internal stuff won't count because you are guaranteed first place. But that just seems strange!! I'm honestly not 100% sure either way - Has anyone reading this heard anything about this situation, perhaps someone who has studied a course by themselves?

Like darcyynic, I was also the only student in two of my classes (chem & 2u maths :o). So basically the internal assessment mark doesn't hold much value, as your final HSC mark will be what you got in the external exam (since its an average of exam + moderated assessment mark, which will be equal to your exam mark). But you really shouldn't disregard it completely.

Despite not having to work all year towards "ranks", I would also encourage you to work just as hard as you would if you had a whole class. It will definitely help you in the long run for exams. Also, if you had to misadventure one of your school assessments or even your external exam, your internal assessment mark is all they really have to work with to calculate your mark, so it definitely isn't completely irrelevant.  :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: full metal jacket on April 28, 2019, 11:16:17 pm
How do you reckon the scaling would be for the 2019 hsc.
What year will it be similar to?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on April 29, 2019, 10:12:39 am
How do you reckon the scaling would be for the 2019 hsc.
What year will it be similar to?

Hey! It's impossible to tell, will depend on the subject and the exam and all manner of other factors ;D
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Einstein_Reborn_97 on February 11, 2020, 10:17:58 pm
Why is the performance of the whole cohort critical to getting a Band 6?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: jamonwindeyer on February 15, 2020, 11:02:50 am
Why is the performance of the whole cohort critical to getting a Band 6?

Hey! Sorry for the delayed reply to your Q ;D

It's not exactly 'critical,' plenty of people get B6's in 'poor-performing' cohorts. But it does make it easier if you are around the middle of the pack. You can read more here (https://atarnotes.com/how-does-scaling-work/), but basically, your cohorts' scores in the exam helps determine how your internal marks will moderate, meaning that if they do poorly in the exam, your internal mark might not be as high as you like, even if you personally do really well in the final exam.

The way to think about it is, if you are in a 'poor-performing' cohort, you just need to work hard to be ranked high in that cohort. To take that to the extreme, if you are ranked first and you also get the highest score in the final exam, it will be like your cohort never existed and you will just get your own mark. All of this is explained better in that link above :) hope that helps!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Einstein_Reborn_97 on February 20, 2020, 12:04:16 am
Hey! Sorry for the delayed reply to your Q ;D

It's not exactly 'critical,' plenty of people get B6's in 'poor-performing' cohorts. But it does make it easier if you are around the middle of the pack. You can read more here (https://atarnotes.com/how-does-scaling-work/), but basically, your cohorts' scores in the exam helps determine how your internal marks will moderate, meaning that if they do poorly in the exam, your internal mark might not be as high as you like, even if you personally do really well in the final exam.

The way to think about it is, if you are in a 'poor-performing' cohort, you just need to work hard to be ranked high in that cohort. To take that to the extreme, if you are ranked first and you also get the highest score in the final exam, it will be like your cohort never existed and you will just get your own mark. All of this is explained better in that link above :) hope that helps!

Thanks for the response!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Penguin12121212 on April 09, 2020, 01:08:49 am
Hi!
I was wondering about moderation in that I've heard if you come say 5th internally, you will get the 5th HSC exam mark? Say I end up around 5th internally, but I get the 2nd HSC mark in my cohort. Does that mean the 2nd mark goes to the 2nd internally and I get whatever the 5th mark is? Or do I get to keep my 2nd HSC mark?

Not sure if I'm saying this in a way that make sense so for example,
If I get 90 internally, and come 5th, and Bob gets 95 internally and comes 2nd. If I get a 96 in the HSC, which say is the 2nd highest mark in my cohort and Bob gets a 89, will I get to keep that 96 as well as Bob getting his 89 scaled up to that 96? Or do I get some other random mark that was 5th in my cohort because of my internal rank.
Thanks!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: fun_jirachi on April 09, 2020, 07:27:28 pm
Hey there, welcome to the forums!

In an oversimplified way, that is roughly how the ATAR works. More accurately, your internal marks determine your ranks amongst those in your school. NESA then uses those ranks against the range of external marks achieved by your school using some distribution to determine your internal mark. Basically, they match your rank to a corresponding score based on your cohort - it may be higher or lower than your rank's score in the set of marks depending on how skewed your cohort's performance is. This internal mark is then averaged with your actual external mark to provide your HSC mark.

Essentially, you do get to get to keep your 2nd HSC mark, but that'll only make up 50% of your HSC mark, as your external 50%. The other 50% is made up of the internal calculated as above.

Hope this makes sense!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: Lukky333 on August 13, 2020, 11:07:15 pm
Ok so to ask my question, I'm going to have to present the situation first (this is hypothetical):
Let's say that you had a horrible internal rank at the end of the year, e.g. 59/60 in a subject. But then at the end of the year, you manage to clutch up and get an awesome external mark in the HSC, where lets say you came first with a mark of 97.
Now I know that your HSC mark is the average of the external and the moderated internal mark that is calculated by changing your original internal score to correspond with the external assessment score of the student in your cohort that had ranked the same in their external as you did in your internal. But to be fair, at the end of the day, you came first in the exam that everyone in the state had to sit. So my question is, can NESA acknowledge this fact and maybe even boost your internal assessment mark (regardless of your rank), especially if the moderated assessment mark that you got was terrible (due to another person's external mark)? Because I reckon that there is such a big difference that is demonstrated in this situation that if you did this you shouldn't be overlooked and should be given some credit.
Thank you!
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: ziwa.fizae on October 18, 2020, 11:58:09 pm
hey guys im currently attending a school ranked 200-300
here are my internal marks

english std: 24/118    73% avg
maths adv:21/60    67% avg
chem:18/26  59% avg
bio:24/66  70%
bus stds:27/78 75% avg

say i get these raw marks in my hsc what is the outcome of my atar??
engstd:85% raw mark
maths adv:90% raw mark
biology: 90% raw mark
chemisty:75% raw mark
business studies: 92% raw mark

thanks
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: hooter03 on October 27, 2020, 02:10:56 pm
Hey, quick question, how much higher do you think the marks for maths standard will get scaled. I got a rough 80 or so although I was initially aiming for over 90 is it still possible or is that dragged too much??? Considering the fact that the majority of the state found the exam difficult and only some people were able to answer the difficult questions and its also. So do you think a 90 above is still possible?

Also, I came first in maths if that helps, my internal is an 89.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: BakerDad12 on October 27, 2020, 09:48:40 pm
Same for Maths Advanced, curious for the alignment process. I've looked at the raw marks database thing, but I'm not sure how much the alignment happens will change as a result of the new syllabus.
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: neha.singh4 on April 26, 2021, 02:51:17 pm
Could someone please explain raw marks! Are raw marks used for the internal mark or external marks?
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: fun_jirachi on April 26, 2021, 08:12:02 pm
Raw marks are used for both. Simplistically, your raw marks are scaled against the performance of your cohort, and your internal mark is 'chosen' based on your internal rank and the scaled range of marks produced by your cohort. Your external mark will be your scaled raw mark. There are more detailed explanations elsewhere, but if you can't find them or would prefer me to explain it a bit more myself, then by all means ask again :)
Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: pmcrawford on April 29, 2021, 12:06:49 am
Hey everyone, it is really hard to wrap you head around but after reading this whole forum i have figured it out and i hope this helps xx.

In your hsc you have your internal mark: To begin with your internal mark no one cares about, it is your RANK that matters, your rank is calculated against your own schools cohort (just the kids in your school) and how well you do in each exam and then is averaged out. (e.g. you get 75% in your first exam and that ranks you 3rd but then in the next exam you get 60% and everyone below you does better you get dropped to 10th, however this goes up and down based on how well you do compared to everyone else)  . this includes all in class exams, hand in's and trials. pretty much in the last 4 terms of school determines your rank. NOW this rank is the KEY to life. once you complete trails (the last chance you have to change your rank) your rank will be fixed in place. For example in legal you rank 10/30 and got a 70%.

It now moves onto the hsc and you smash it! you end up getting a RAW mark of 89% in legal and life is great!

Lets say in the hsc exam your rank stays at 10/30 even though you did better so did everyone else your internal mark with then change to 89%.

Your actual internal mark is NOT used it is your rank that is used. Your rank internally is the grade you will get who ever ranks that in their hsc.
Eg. Your rank internally is 10/30 for legal and in the exam you do shit and become ranked 29/30 your internal mark will still be equivalent to the persons grade that came 10/30 .
THIS is why you have to be competitive in class and as soon as trials are over share EVERYTHING!
and that is your internal mark ^

You also have your external hsc/raw mark: Your raw hsc mark and it is the actual mark you get in the hsc exam, does not change what so ever, what you get is what you get and it is fixed and will not go up of down. this is the RAW exam mark.

Now we add the rank mark. and raw hsc mark , find the average and that is the atar.
Eg.
Your rank 10/30 for legal but come 15/30 in the hsc.
The person who came 10/30 in the exam got a mark of 90%
and your personal rank of 15/30 got 80%

your internal with be changed to 90% and your atar will be an average of the two.
If your coming first in a subject internally then who ever gets ranked the highest grade in the exam will then become your internal exam mark.

if you are ranked low, work hard to move up the ranks before trails end.




Title: Re: ATAR/Scaling Questions
Post by: fun_jirachi on April 29, 2021, 09:56:15 am
Eg. Your rank internally is 10/30 for legal and in the exam you do shit and become ranked 29/30 your internal mark will still be equivalent to the persons grade that came 10/30 .

This is a common misconception - you do NOT take the mark with the same rank as your internal. They may be the same, but it's not as simplistic as this. The distribution of marks externally is moderated against the distribution of marks internally (as far as I'm aware). For all intents and purposes though, this understanding is close enough (and all you really need to know is that your internal rank needs to be as high as possible to maximise your marks).

Now we add the rank mark. and raw hsc mark , find the average and that is the star.

The raw mark is scaled then averaged with your internal. This forms your final mark, NOT your ATAR. Remember, your ATAR is based off the final marks of 2 units of English + 8 other best units.

If your coming first in a subject internally then who ever gets ranked the highest grade in the exam will then become your internal exam mark.

Despite what I said before, this is true (the highest and lowest internal ranks will always map to the highest and lowest marks externally).

Apart from this, this is pretty much correct - just wanted to address a few misconceptions in your response.