Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!Moderation is dependent on three factors:
I think that if you're coming first (or near first) you won't be affected by scaling. If you are first by a lot (i.e. there's a massive gap between you and second, you are getting 90% while the person coming second is getting 40% you'll be considered as an outlier)That's not exactly false tbh but way too blurry.
I may be wrong, but it's better to ask Jamon (I was putting my thought out there just to help you out)
Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!
Hey Jamon! I was just wondering if you know how much your class's performance can affect your scaling? Some of my classes are pretty good but some (especially physics) are all pretty slack and don't really care about their atar that much except for me!
You know how they say things like "your rank matters more than your mark"? How come some people who get like 80% in their school assessments end up getting band 6 in certain subjects?Because:
Apparently I heard that if you miss your HSC exams for any reason (such as illness) then they make your school mark, your actual HSC mark
Funny story here (a bit irrelevant to the thread) but I remember a teacher at my school telling me that many years ago, there was some boardofstudies officer who apparently got fired (I can't remember where this happened though and I can't remember what happened exactly) and she had all the HSC exam papers on top of her car and drove off and all of the exam papers started flying everywherev LOL. They ended up calculating the students' HSC mark via their school assessment mark. Must've been really bad for them LOL
I heard apparently that if you do courses with an "outside tutor" (must be one that is suitable according to the boardofstudies) then they calculate your mark according to how well you performed since it's only a one student course (out of school). If you get 90 in your school assessments and 96 in your actual HSC exam, then you'll get 93 total. Is this true?
Because:
a) Who said your rank had to be shit if your mark in assessments is 80%
b) The whole point of moderation is to eliminate the fact that some schools will set harder assessment tasks. Moderation takes your exam marks (which are not biased, because everyone sits the same final exam) and overlaps it onto your school raw marks, however keeping the ranks preserved and parabolically distributed to reflect the raw mark differences.
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As for outside tuition.
Yes. Because you have no other student to be moderated with.
Apparently if you are getting 80% for any course, you know 80% of the course. If you are getting 90% you are getting 90% of the course so wouldn't it be weird if you just got 80% then all of a sudden scaling brings it up to a 90%? (I'm talking about tests of mediocre difficulty, not hard, not easy)What kind of blasphemy is this and what is its basis :o
If you go to a school with literally no band 6's and you get 100% and the second highest is like 20% then what happens here?
That's kinda stupid, especially for a high scaling subject like MX1 or MX2, you should at least get scaled higher since it's MX1 or MX2 (as in your internal assessments must be dragged higher if you are doing a difficult course by yourself because it's kinda unfair to get 80% in a difficult course and not get scaled to 90%)
What kind of blasphemy is this and what is its basis :o
Unless it's just a figure of speech or something.
Well, if second highest is 20%, what is first highest? There's no mark difference here.
No. It is very much fair. Especially since I have rarely heard of one-to-one tuition students getting 100 raw in the final exam.
(Maths is one of those subjects that you can only state rank if your raw mark is at least 99)
State ranks are NOT based off your internal marks at ALL. ONLY the final exam mark.
That's what a teacher at my school said. If you scored 84% in your triginometry test, you understand 84% of everything in trigonometry, etc, you get what I'm talking about don't you?They're being relative lol. Exams aren't just about knowing your content they're also about being able to apply them.
There's an 80% difference
What does raw mark mean?
Then how are state ranks decided then?
They're being relative lol. Exams aren't just about knowing your content they're also about being able to apply them.
What, so internals wise 2nd place got 20% and first place got 100%?
Or are you saying in the final exam 2nd place got 20% and 1st place got 100%
Raw mark - Your actual exam mark. Without ANYTHING that is a synonym to the word "scaling".
State ranks - Whoever gets the best raw mark in the final exam gets the state rank. (It's harder when too many people get the same raw mark)
Internal wise because that's when scaling comes into play (I think)Internals wise if first place and second place are disparate by a massive margin of 80%
Then don't they do tiebreakers (i.e. check their internals). I can't remember what happens
Also for the kids who are sitting a course via an outside tutor, they should just tell their teacher/tutor that they should make the exams easier so then they are more likely to get a band 6 lol. Might not work though but who knows
Then don't they do tiebreakers (i.e. check their internals). I can't remember what happens
Also for the kids who are sitting a course via an outside tutor, they should just tell their teacher/tutor that they should make the exams easier so then they are more likely to get a band 6 lol. Might not work though but who knows
The process, from BOSTES:
If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.
Those students would get absolutely wrecked in the HSC when the difficulty becomes standard again. That, and BOSTES would catch them out, I've heard tales of it happening before ;)
Jamon, mind giving me an example?
Yeah I know but unless you're practicing difficult questions ever now and then, then you'll be able to handle the actual HSC exams with not much hesitation. How would BOSTES catch them out? I know that some really low ranked schools don't make their exams hard mainly because not many students can handle the difficulty of their exams
Sure, so say Bob and Lauren are tied for first place for Extension 1 Math. The first two dot points in that process still yield a tie (highly unlikely). In that case, they go back to results for Mathematics. If Bob got 98 but Lauren got 97, then Bob takes first place in Extension 1, and Lauren takes second ;D
James Ruse exams for example? Not the hardest out there. Some schools do set harder papers, and often they are selective, but there is no direct correlation there. And we are talking slight differences in difficulty anyway; it just doesn't make sense for a school to set easier or harder assessments. You just set to the standard. No more, no less ;D
Oh, well say a few students did MX2 through external tuition, and all got 100%, that would be suss ;) I'm not 100% sure though, I just heard this back at school :)
Oh, I get it now. But if they're both tied in MX1 and 2U then wouldn't it mean that they still would be tied in MX1
Well that is true because Sydney Grammar's papers are the hardest (for maths) and Ruse smashes Sydney Grammar in maths with a band 6 rate of 98% (if I remember correctly) but the thing is (I think I discussed this with RuiAce in the maths threads) is that if the exams are easier then wouldn't that mean that more people will be ranked similarly?
So basically set an exam where people's rankings are completely different from each other's and not have 5 people ranked equal first?
This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about outside tutors (just to prevent further confusion): http://rego.bostes.nsw.edu.au/registered-individual-non-government-schools/registration-requirements/staff/outside-tutors
http://ace.bostes.nsw.edu.au/ace-4013
Oh yeah good point, but just set like one easy exam and then one easy exam and then one hard, etc so then nobody notices anything suss lol. For harder maths topics, make the exams easy and for the easier topics, make the exams harder ;)
I think that would be true, they would then both receive 1st place ;D it actually happens reasonably often :D
If the exams are easier, yes, rankings would probably be closer together. But Year 12 exams will differentiate if they are at the standard difficulty. Even a James Ruse cohort can't all get 98% in a 2U exam, there is always some level of spread. For selective schools, that spread is narrower and closer to the Band 6 end of the spectrum, but their exams are almost no different :) the fact is, Sydney Grammar's assessments aren't all that harder than anyone else's. Everyone gets the same.
I think you are putting too much thought into how tutors could cheat the system... Really, they are only hurting themselves and their students if they choose to do that :P
I thought they were, mainly because the last question is usually a difficult question. So basically every school in NSW has exams of similar difficulty to the actual HSC exams? (in order to make the rankings more even)
Nah it just sounds so interesting though :D because basically it's like one to one education going to your HSC but how are they hurting themselves and their students? Are they not giving enough exposure to the more difficult questions when doing so or what? ???
I'll agree with you there, but on the whole, not too much harder. Everyone gets the same range of difficulty, because it's the HSC, and it needs to be even :)
They are hurting themselves because they aren't actually teaching and rewarding based on merits. The students don't get exposed to the course in its intended fashion. And it's cheating, which is really the only necessary reason! ;)
Hmmmmm, okay, but they can still teach and reward based on merits but in an unfair manner (like you said Jamon). Well the kids doing the course 1-1 externally are disadvantaged in that sense, there is no safety net to back them up whenever they do crap but the kids in a class are because of the scaling.
If you are first (in a class) do you get scaled up or do you not get affected by scaling at all (i.e. you don't get scaled down)?
If you are within the band 6 range, does scaling affect you in any way? (basically a repeat of the question above)
What does it mean by moderation?In a nutshell, moderation is a process where
They say in english standard it's harder to get a band 6 because there are too many people doing the course and in advanced it's easier. Is this because of moderation?
In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.
No. It is actually just as easy to get a band 6 in standard as it is to get in advanced.
The problems lie in a) sometimes standard are treated too lightly by their teachers, and b) from comparing marks, generally the students who do advanced at the stronger students. Anyone who can get a band 6 in advanced can easily get it in standard.
Lol what's the point of standard then because english advaced is higher scaling than standardWhoever said standard was the same difficulty as advanced?
In a nutshell, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your final exam marks, to cater for the fact some schools set harder internal assessments than others.
To be more unambiguous, moderation is a process where your internal marks are adjusted to (on a broad scale) correspond to your cohort's total exam marks.Do you need me to write a full essay on how moderation works? I was simply not bothered because linked in the original post is an in depth analysis of everything about moderation.
For example if you score 70 internal & 90 exam, but your cohort's total exam mark is about the same as their total internal mark, that indicates the school did not set harder internal assessments therefore your 70 internal won't get moderated up (despite your 90 exam).
Do you need me to write a full essay on how moderation works? I was simply not bothered because linked in the original post is an in depth analysis of everything about moderation.
Here I quote for you directly from that linkIs there a necessity to clearly say that it's dependent on the cohort? The fact is that I dumbed it down to not include any specifics. Everything was in the link so why should I?
"The Board moderates your School Assessment Mark for a subject using the Examination Marks obtained by the students who sat the exam for that subject at your school. That is, your HSC Physics mark is moderated based on the results of Physics students at your school."
Doesn't that look like cohort's total exam marks rather than your own exam mark?
If all you were doing is calling me out for not relating to the entire cohort and rather the single student, I'm sorry but you may stop.
Your ranting over yet?I edited the relevant post.
Did not mean to call you out, I did say just "to be more unambiguous". Dumbing down cohort's marks to one's exam mark can be confusing to many, an example is like this post
Re: Questions regarding rankings
That was all.
Hello, for moderation/ranking/scaling whatever its called, if im ranked 3rd in a subject and get the highest external mark ( out of my cohort ) in an exam can i still get the highest mark overall in my school cohort? or do i automatically get the 3rd highest mark and have it moderated with my internal ?
thanks
Thanks guys, also wondering if i can get a 90+ atar after sitting the actual hsc with my internal marks ( assuming i do a lot of work)Yes.
Adv Eng - 86/100 rank 4/20
Maths -65/100 rank 6/15
Economics - 76/100 rank 3/8
Legal - 93/100 rank 2/16
Business - 94/100 rank 1/18
Thanks guys, also wondering if i can get a 90+ atar after sitting the actual hsc with my internal marks ( assuming i do a lot of work)
Adv Eng - 86/100 rank 4/20
Maths -65/100 rank 6/15
Economics - 76/100 rank 3/8
Legal - 93/100 rank 2/16
Business - 94/100 rank 1/18
Isn't there a specific way HSC marks are calculated for courses sat outside of school? Pretend you sat a course with an outside tutor (e.g. 3U maths) and the exams he made you sit were really hard and you ended up getting 60s for those exams and in the external HSC exam everyone does, you get 100 for the exam. How is your raw HSC mark calculated by then? I know that BOSTES takes into account school marks and ranks (mainly ranks) to scale everyone equally because every school's exam differs in difficulty but how does this happen for courses with an outside tutor, especially when you're doing it one to one and how your external tutor's exam is much harder than actual school's? I'd be unfair if they took it for your actual mark you got in the exam, they should only be doing that if the internal exams are either easier or on par with difficulty with the actual HSC paperIf you do a course by private tutoring and you're the only student, then effectively because of how moderation works your final exam mark is basically what mark you get reported. (The idea is: A candidature of 1 is completely FREE from moderation.)
Isn't there a specific way HSC marks are calculated for courses sat outside of school? Pretend you sat a course with an outside tutor (e.g. 3U maths) and the exams he made you sit were really hard and you ended up getting 60s for those exams and in the external HSC exam everyone does, you get 100 for the exam. How is your raw HSC mark calculated by then? I know that BOSTES takes into account school marks and ranks (mainly ranks) to scale everyone equally because every school's exam differs in difficulty but how does this happen for courses with an outside tutor, especially when you're doing it one to one and how your external tutor's exam is much harder than actual school's? I'd be unfair if they took it for your actual mark you got in the exam, they should only be doing that if the internal exams are either easier or on par with difficulty with the actual HSC paper
I think Jamon's original article answers your question. Your raw mark for internal assessments contributes nothing to your final marks; it's your rank, and your HSC results, that matter. If you were the only person in your class, and get 40% the whole way through, but get a 80 in the HSC exam, you will get 80 for your assessment mark as well.
I still don't really get it, because shouldn't it be 60% (as in assessment marks)No. 60% is a raw assessment mark. If you read Jamon's article what you get reported is a moderated and then aligned assessment mark.
Also for people who do courses with outside tutors, where do they sit their external exam (i.e. the HSC exam everyone else sits)?
No. 60% is a raw assessment mark. If you read Jamon's article what you get reported is a moderated and then aligned assessment mark.
Your raw assessment mark in itself is ultimately useless.
_______________________
Where they sit it will be at the tutor's discretion.
What? So basically all that matters is the HSC external exam? What's the point of the school assessment and external assessment then if there is an equal weighting of 50% for each? I heard this one girl at ruse came third internally but smashed externals and came first in the state for bio. Was this because her internals were completely redundant or what?If you're a cohort of 1 student, ultimately there IS no point.
What? So basically all that matters is the HSC external exam? What's the point of the school assessment and external assessment then if there is an equal weighting of 50% for each? I heard this one girl at ruse came third internally but smashed externals and came first in the state for bio. Was this because her internals were completely redundant or what?
Internal RANK matters, as does relative placement within the cohort. But the value of the mark itself does not. The purpose of this is that schools will assess differently, but as long as all students in the same school get the same tasks, the ranks can be trusted, even if the marks can't be 🏻 I suppose we do internal assessments because basing absolutely everything on a single exam would be really mean, so they give you a chance to influence it
Would there be a moderation effect on a cohort with only 2 students?I'm fairly positive a cohort of 2 works just like a cohort of 1 yes.
So if your internal average mark was like 60 and your external mark was 95 (and you were first in the cohort and the exams were more difficult than the HSC, the BOSTES would do the average of the two exams and scale it up to like 90 (I'm assuming)
Wouldn't the same thing apply in a cohort of 1-2 students?
Would there be a moderation effect on a cohort with only 2 students?
So if your internal average mark was like 60 and your external mark was 95 (and you were first in the cohort and the exams were more difficult than the HSC, the BOSTES would do the average of the two exams and scale it up to like 90 (I'm assuming)
Wouldn't the same thing apply in a cohort of 1-2 students?
Will I be able to get a 90+ atar with the following marks?
English Adv: 78/100 - Rank: 5/23
Maths: 83/100 - Rank: 3/9
Business Studies: 84/100 - Rank 2/17
PDHPE: 89/100 - Rank: 3/17
Society & culture: 88/100 - Rank: 3/19
Will I be able to get a 90+ atar with the following marks?Whenever I see this type of post, I always flat out say yes.
English Adv: 78/100 - Rank: 5/23
Maths: 83/100 - Rank: 3/9
Business Studies: 84/100 - Rank 2/17
PDHPE: 89/100 - Rank: 3/17
Society & culture: 88/100 - Rank: 3/19
does anyone know where I can find the subject scaling website ?
does anyone know where I can find the subject scaling website ?As Jamon mentioned, there is nothing that will ever give you the exact scaling algorithm. The parameters need to be changed every year due to each year's exam being different, and the data being different as well.
I am thoroughly amazed by the amount of effort they put in to give you that reply
Ok. They did it all this morningNo. Privacy issues there
DO you want to see the picture of me emailing them?
No. Privacy issues there
Ok. They did it all this morningIt's a copy a paste response to every HSC scaling question.
DO you want to see the picture of me emailing them?
It's a copy a paste response to every HSC scaling question.
Hey guys, I've just read the article and just wanted to make sure that what I've taken from it is what you are trying to actually say.For the internal component, on a simplified basis yes.
So for this year's exam in 3U maths, I believe I my mark is around 57-60/70. Now what I want to know is that I am ranked 3rd, but lets say the rest of the students in the top 10 believe that they have achieved a mark of 65+/70. Does this mean that I essentially attain their mark + the BOSTES magical alteration algorithm alterations. Sorry, just both curious and dissappointed at how I went this exam.
For the internal component, on a simplified basis yes.
For the external component you keep what you get, which is 57-60/70 pre-alignment and who knows what post-alignment.
Remember that the HSC is weighted between both internals AND externals. Only INTERNALS get affected by moderation.
Oh ok, that definitely calms the nerves I've had since the nightmare of 3U. Also, not sure if this is too much to ask, but knowing my rank and mark, is it possible for you to estimate whether it is possible for me to attain an E4? If not thats cool, just trying milk out as much as I can ;DEstimates become more reliable with more of the following
Estimates become more reliable with more of the following
- Your raw mark for the exam. (obviously)
- Your rank
- Your trial mark
- Your mark difference from first place
Raw mark for the exam: lets just assume worst case scenario 57/70May be a tad off cause when I meant raw mark difference that was for internals, not the final exam
Rank: 3/50
Trial Mark: 63/70
Mark difference from first place: For HSC I believe he only lost one mark so 12 marks.
My raw mark school assessment mark is 85.
May be a tad off cause when I meant raw mark difference that was for internals, not the final exam
90-94
Student A gets 60 internally, 83 externally
Student B gets 55 internally, 90 externally
The marks will then become more difficult to quantify, but Student A will receive a mark of 83 for their external mark, and slightly below 90 for their internal mark. Conversely, Student B will get 90 for their external mark, but slightly above 83 for their internal mark. You take your rank, find that rank in the cohort for the external exam, and that is approximately your internal mark. It works exactly the same for a cohort of 1, 2, 80 or 140.
If I came 4th in my cohort and got an internal of 78 for example. Then in the HSC I got 40 but the 4th rank was 84. How big of a disparity between 84 would there be to if I got 82? Hope that made sense
Hey! It would depend on the spread in your internal results, because that affects the way moderation works, but 84 would be a decent estimate of your moderated assessment mark in most cases. If we ignore the complexities of moderation and assume your moderated assessment mark was 84, then that would be averaged with your exam mark of 40 and your HSC Mark would be 62. This would be compared to averaging with 82, which would yield a HSC mark of 83 (again, completely dependent on the specifics of moderation, which is dependent on your cohort, but these are solid estimates) :)
That said, an exam mark of 40 could quite possibly trigger alarm bells at NESA (just got a flash of a giant tower with security fences and armed guards, aha) - There are special procedures students who perform significantly below expectation in the HSC exam. I don't know of any specific documentation regarding this, but it is possible that the normal procedures wouldn't apply to you :)
Okay because I'm in a class of 6 and 2 students will probably get band 6's and 2 will probably get band 2's. I beat the other student by 1 mark in the assignment but I feel like she will be much better than me in the written exam. I could possibly drop to like a 60 in the HSC because my teacher is really bad (our class had 13 in prelim and 5 said they dropped due to our teacher. 3 of us would have also dropped if we could) and a lack of interest in economics. I only have 10 units as well and I'm wondering how important getting the 3rd rank is and how much of a factor in the HSC that will become.
Hey guys,
Just a quick question, scaling wise how does the class affect your overall mark? Say if about 4 people are working quite hard and achieving good marks, yet the other 12 aren't going quite so well, will that affect the top 4's overall mark?
Sorry if this doesn't make sense :)
Hey Ellie! Speaking basically, yes it does, but the impact is lessened the better those 4 students go! Their exam marks are theirs without any effect, but their internal mark will be based on the performance of the class in the exam, and their rank :) the process is explained here! Hopefully it makes sense of things for you ;D
Ah okay, so that means that the top 4's marks shouldn't really be affected even though there will be a big gap between 4th and 5th??
Thankyou!
Is it bad to do standard english in terms of scaling?
I absolutely adore procrastinating by reading forums like this! Good job guys, some interesting stuff in this thread! ;D
Hey! So it depends on what you mean by 'bad', but here is some data compared to Advanced based on scaling that occurred in 2016 -
HSC Mark - 76
Advanced: Scaled to 52.4
Standard: Scaled to 51.8
They are both meant to scale down, just the way it works! But at a mark in the Band 4 range, the difference is pretty slim! The difference starts to become a little bigger as you go higher:
HSC Mark - 81
Advanced: Scaled to 65.4
Standard: Scaled to 63.2
But even then, not huge right! The difference between the two doesn't get much larger than a few points. The big difference isn't in scaling but in where the marks sit, the average mark for Advanced is about 12 points higher than Standard (81 vs 69) - And while 15% of Advanced students will get a Band 6, only 1% of Standard students get a Band 6 :)
That said, there is absolutely nothing stopping you succeeding with Standard! I've seen plenty of people do it. Statistically, it's less likely, but it's up to you not to be a statistic! ;D
Yeah I just asked about this because I did bad in 30% worth of assessments and my rank is 25 of 35, last year my school got 12 band 6's and the rest band 5's (I think) so I was just thinking of dropping. I probably won't now though.
State ranks are NOT based off your internal marks at ALL. ONLY the final exam mark.
Hi! Does this mean that even if you are not coming first in your school, say if I'm coming second or third, but my HSC exam mark is the highest from my school, then I could still get a state rank? I'm unsure because I saw somewhere that if you are not coming first in the internal school exams, but you come first in the HSC exam, then your exam mark will be given to the person who came first in the internal exams. Is this true?
Hey just say i got all band 6 in my 12 units, but in a very poor ranking school would i still be able to achieve a good ATAR.
What effect does the percentage difference between internal marks have? If 3rd gets an internal mark of 81 and 4th gets 65. Then in the HSC, they both get 82. What difference would an internal mark of 80 for 4th have on 4th's moderated mark? Some people say it wouldn't affect it at all but I do not believe this to be true but can't find a definitive answer.
Haha I'd like to ask about the possibility of improving a subject that could possibly be in a band5 after trials to a band 6 after externals... has is been done before ??
Hey! It is honestly really hard to tell because there are so many variables. But, spacing is maintained - If 3rd was significantly ahead of 4th internally, that would stay the same after moderation of the internal marks ;D
Thanks for that! I also distinctly remember our head of curriculum stating that no one's moderated mark is below the worst HSC mark. I also believe this is false. Sorry for the hassle; I just want to know how important sharing notes will be after trials.
Hey guys,
I'm just wondering if you're going crap in English advanced (around 70-80%) but going well in your other subjects (85-95%) how much it could impact your scaling and atar?
Thanks!
Hey guys also just wondering if an atar of at least 90 is achievable with these marks (excluding trials) and rank.
School rank: 390
English advanced: 17/32 - 75% average
Biology: 1/24 - 92% average
Business Studies: 1/25 - 90% average
Chemistry: 2/12 - 82% average
Earth and Environmental Science: 1/9 - 96% average
Mathematics General 2: 1/60 - 88% average
Thanks!
Hey! I definitely wouldn't call 70-80% in Advanced crap. That sort of mark isn't going to be a huge boost to your ATAR of course, but it definitely won't be dragging you down in any significant way either! Depending on the ATAR you are aiming for, a few strong results in the 90's will easily balance out that result for Advanced.
Try and push that Advanced mark up as high as you can though! It will definitely be better for you to have that mark as far into the 80's as possible ;D
90+ ATAR definitely achievable with those scores, you are killing it, great work! Obviously for 90+ you want as much as possible in the 90's, so work hard to drive up General Math and Advanced English. Chemistry scales really well in the Band 5/6 range so although that mark is lower than General, it probably isn't as much a priority. Also keep in mind your HSC marks in the exam won't necessarily reflect the raw marks you are getting now - You'll improve, and there is all sorts of moderation/alignment involved ;D
Your ranks have set you up really nicely - Great work ;D
Here's a full guide to how your ATAR is calculated, if it interests you! ;D
Hey, was wondering if getting an atar of 92 is achieveable with these marks in a top 40 selective school
Ranks:
English Advanced: 64/121 - 67%
Business Studies: 10/27 - 80%
Mathematics 2u: 50/99 - 75%
3u: 85/99 - 60%
Legal Studies: 3/32 - 94%
Physics: 42/85 - 70%
The current dux of my school chose what are deemed as "poor" scaling subjects, but because the workload is obviously a lot more easier to handle, ...so scaling really is BS ...
What effect does the percentage difference between internal marks have? If 3rd gets an internal mark of 81 and 4th gets 65. Then in the HSC, they both get 82. What difference would an internal mark of 80 for 4th have on 4th's moderated mark?
If not for this scaling BS students taking subjects with easier workload end up with higher ATAR, would you think that's a better outcome for all?
Without speaking for her, I don't think Claudia was saying the idea of scaling is bogus, scaling is absolutely a necessary (but perhaps imperfect in some ways) thing in attempting to equalise the workload and difficulty of different subject choices. Nothing could do it perfectly, the current system does it relatively fairly imo. What I think Claudia was saying though was that the idea of picking high scaling subjects purely for success is bogus. You will almost certainly do far better choosing subjects you have an interest in and are at least somewhat passionate about. And this I certainly agree with!
While it happens, scaling shouldn't determine your course choices, at least not over more tangible benefits like furthering your knowledge for tertiary study. I get it being a consideration, it would be silly not to consider it, but the fact that it plays such a large role in subject decisions for many people is evidence of the dangerous trend of the HSC being more about the end game and the final number than about the actual process of education and enrichment, which subtracts from the value of doing it in the first place. It's what leads to some teachers telling students to rote learn the 20/20 essays that are handed to them instead of actually learning how to argue a point, or to regurgitating a method in Maths without actually understanding the concepts behind it :P
#rant
Do non-ATAR students affect the scaling for ATAR subjects? If they performed badly during the HSC, would this drag this class down? Or would they not be counted?
I am actually really worried for two of my subjects chemistry and English, my ranks are bad and I am not sure if they actually matter or not. Another thing is if your rank is like 6/10 for a subject but you score a raw mark of 90 and above in the HSC does that mark go to the person who is coming first. If so how is that even fair? :-\
I am actually really worried for two of my subjects chemistry and English, my ranks are bad and I am not sure if they actually matter or not. Another thing is if your rank is like 6/10 for a subject but you score a raw mark of 90 and above in the HSC does that mark go to the person who is coming first. If so how is that even fair? :-\
Okay that makes sense, so if your external mark is 90+ no one can touch that? And wanted to ask do the trials have a big effect on your HSC, because that's what my teachers are saying?
Hi,
I have a maths class that has a high top and a low bottom
I have a chemistry class that has results pretty spread out
Is it better to improve the results of the top 5, bottom 5 or the whole class for each of the situations stated above?
My rankings aren't great: 4th in both.
Thanks
hey ppl!
jst wondering....do languages scale well? even a beginners subject?
tku! ;)
also...i currently do 12 units and am already guessing which of my subjects wont be included in my 10 units for ATAR score as it is unspeakably low low lowww :o...so..i feel that if i work hard to get that subject (mathematics) off its feet i'm only gonna lose time where i could be working for my already better subjects....so should i just be focusing on my better subjects as im pretty sure that bad one will not be included to calculate my atar....if that makes sense?! be v glad of any help ;D however, perhaps mathematics scales better than my other subjects so now i'm really boxed!
I think the conflict you are having here exemplifies exactly why it just doesn't make sense to neglect any HSC subjects. At the end of the day you just don't know what will happen in the other exams, and having Mathematics as a backup could come in handy.
In my opinion, just work really hard on everything, try to bring 2U up as much as you can bring it up working a sensible amount. Even numbers aside, that way you can say you literally gave everything your best effort ;D
how differently scaled are mathematics and maths general 2?? :o
i've heard they're really similar now which is annoying those in gen 2 are getting waaay better marks than us in mathematics!!? >:( ::) ???
thanks
also another question in regard to scaling..... 8)
how different is advanced eng to standard?? i started do it thinking it might push up my atar, but now i srsly wonder!!! ???
thanks heaps for the encouragement jamon (as always!!) ;D
i'm not too worried cos i like all the subjects i do anyway and wouldn't change just to get better marks ;) :D ;D
the whole atar/scaling/ranking thing is v confusing tho!! :o
Hey Jamon,
It's been around 9 months or so since I dropped gennie maths but I've always wondered if I would have gone better atar wise if i kept it. I don't regret my decision as I love french and it's pretty much my favourite subject but if i kept both subjects which would scale better?
French Continuers Mark 81 Rank 1 vs General Maths Mark 92 Rank 6 or so...
Thanks :) (I did this last year with our academic person at school and the atar difference was around 0.5-1)
Hey! So obviously not worth putting much energy into a decision that you made a year ago, buuut:
- French Continuers scales better than General Math (at least, it did last year) in that Band 5 range where you currently sit.
- Even so, scaling will not compensate for a difference of 10 marks, so if your marks there are indicative of final performance, General Math would be worth more. But not because of scaling, because your mark is higher ;D
Impact on your ATAR would have been pretty slim in either direction, so if you love French it was definitely a good call ;D
Thanks Jamon! :) Yeah I mean I can toss and turn on it but it also would have meant studying for Maths and doing Maths on the day of my Modern trial too so all worked out well!
Hello,
so basically my internal marks are looking good for all my subjects (90s) except for biology which I despise and is marked very harshly at my school. I scraped an 80 for my trials, and my overall internal mark is 82.75 right now. Do I still have a chance of getting a solid band 6 in HSC? I don't want biology to be the reason my ATAR is pulled down, I only do 10 units so biology is definitely going to count.
Honestly regret taking biology so much, I don't know what I was thinking as an english/humanities student!!!
I've tried reading the UAC document (nearly died of boredom) and then Jamon's guide (much better) but I still don't entirely understand how the process works. So I've got a few dumb questions:
1. Is the "HSC mark" you put into an ATAR calculator scaled down based on the other candidates performance in other subjects? So if I get 98% in the IPT exam (first in the class) does this get scaled back to like 90-93 because IPT is easy or does my HSC mark stay at 98%?
2. How are state ranks calculated? Are they basically your final exam mark after it has been reallocated based on your internal rank? What happens if there's a tie?
3. Are there any exceptions to the reallocation of external marks based on internal rank? Say I get 85% in the final business studies exam as first in the class but whoever is number two somehow gets 98%. Do I still get his mark? If it's a state top 10, do I get the state rank? I feel like I'm misunderstanding how internal ranks play into this.
No dumb questions my friend ;D
So you score 98 in the exam after alignment. Since you are 1st, this is also your internal mark, so your HSC Mark averages to 98. This is what appears on your credentials. The scaling of the mark by UAC for calculation of your ATAR is done after the fact and purely for the purposes of calculating the ATAR, you never see the scaled number :)
It goes off your final HSC mark, the average of internal moderated and external aligned. If there is a tie (quoted from NESA):
If students are equal on the highest HSC marks in a course, then the following process is used to determine the recipient(s):
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark after alignment to performance bands, each to one decimal place
- take an average of each student's examination mark and assessment mark before alignment to performance bands, each to two decimal places
- if an extension course, use the marks awarded for other courses in the subject area.
There are limitations, but I believe the limitations are on the low end. So you should get the 98 as your internal moderated mark, which would be averaged with your aligned exam mark of 85. HSC Mark for that course would be (98+85)/2=92. Chances are that mark wouldn't give you a state rank, even though the exam mark was 98, the final HSC mark would be 92 for you and likely only slightly higher for the 98 scorer - Depends on the class :)
"The top assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the top examination mark in the cohort, and the bottom assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the lowest examination mark in the cohort (or if not exact, very close)"
Does this mean that If I get the mark top in my school of mark of around 95, then I don't have to worry about being scaled down. Because at my school we tend to have marks jump from 90%, to 53% to 30% to the occasional 10%. This happens in classes like physics, chem, and ext1 and 2 maths where we only have handful of students (usually 3-8 students per class).
I am really worried about the raw school assessment mark scaling, but I am hoping that If study hard and I do well enough then it wont effect me.
Hello, if i get band 6 in all my subject, but for English i really mess up because that is my weakest subject how much would that have an impact on my atar thanks.
Thanks jamon, and one more thing should i just focus on my other subjects, expect English for i just gave up on it and thanks. :-X
For English my estimate is that I'll probably get a band 4, I can try and get it up to a band 5 but it's so soon there's no garuntees. I think I should be able to get a band 6 (or high band 5) in everything else. So what I'm wondering is do you think I can I still get a 95+ ATAR with such a comparitibley low English mark?
what would happen if you have really good internal marks/ranks but did not do fantastic in HSC?
what would happen if you have really good internal marks/ranks but did not do fantastic in HSC?
Today I heard that if person A consistently gets first in all internal assessment tasks, but person B gets higher than person A in the trials, Person A will get person B's mark.
Is this true?
Hi...It's because the English final exams aggregate to a total of 105, whereas the mark you're reported is always out of 100
Just a random question I've been thinking about...
Why are English raw HSC marks expressed with 2 decimal places?
Whereas, most of the other subjects are just a whole number?
It's because the English final exams aggregate to a total of 105, whereas the mark you're reported is always out of 100
I always believed that my HSC Mark for a subject would be made up of an average between my internal assessment Marks and my HSC Mark for that subject.
I have recently been told that the HSC doesn't take into account what your internal assessment Mark was, they only want the distance between the ranks. So my HSC Mark for a subject will be made up of a moderation of the mark then I received in the actual HSC test, with no input from my internal assessment Mark
Is this true?
Hey!
Such a random question but is is possible to get a 99 ATAR without a Band 6 in English????
Hey!As jamon has already said, yes! My friend got 84 for English (Advanced) but band 6's everywhere else and he ended up with an ATAR of 99.60. So even if English isn't your strong suit, then you're gonna need those top marks in your other subjects to pull you up :)
Such a random question but is is possible to get a 99 ATAR without a Band 6 in English????
Yes it is (essentially) - So the internal marks matter, but yeah, only in the sense that they establish rank and relative difference ;D
This guide explains it in detail! :)
Do the HSC moderating wizards align our marks with our ranks for Major Work based subjects such as English Extension 2?
Hello!
I am back with another random question, really says something about how my brain works late at night :)
This is literally out of pure curiosity, but someone who came first in the course, would their internal mark have to match their external mark? Eg. they get 98 for internal and external.
Hey,
So trials are coming up next term week 3.
Currently my ranks +average marks
ADV English ( 58/88)- 70% really bad
Maths ( 28/57) - 75%
Biology ( 27/55) - 70%
Chemistry is really bad ( 20/28) - 65%
PDHPE 11/25 - 80%
Religion (41/ 85) - 80%
My atar aim is around 95 but I'm happy with above 90 ( my school is in the top 100). If I can boost my marks to above 90-95% in my trials ( I've collated all my mistakes and feedback from previous assessments) would it boost up my ranks aswell? If someone can spare some time to give advice on spacing out prep for my subjects and the main tasks to focus for core subjects like english and math, that would be great ( pls be brutally honest if you have to)
Cheers
What if in a small class of 9 there are 2-4 students that are scoring less than 30 % for their exams and assessments and the top 4 get like 70-75 % for exams and assessments. How would those students that are failing affect and moderate my marks and the top peoples' marks?
Assuming they also get the highest mark in the exam, yes it would! They get moderated to the highest mark, so if that is also their exam mark then the two would be identical ;D
say if rank 1 gets an 85 in the exam and rank 15 gets 95 (lets say this is the highest mark of the cohort)
does this mean rank 1 gets the 95 mark?
Hi! Yes, that would be their moderated assessment mark. Then that would be averaged with their exam mark of 85 - Their HSC mark for the subject would be 90 :)
I'm currently around the mid-high 70s for nearly all my subjects (expect IPT, where im in the 90s).
If i get a 90 in the HSC, does this mean my mark is an 80?
Hi Jamon,
I just read the ATARnotes long article on how scaling works but I am still confused on what mark ends up getting scaled down due to your rank? For example, if I were coming 3rd in my internal rank for chemistry, yet got the top mark in the HSC chemistry exam, would that be taken away and would I be given the third highest mark? However, from article I thought it said that the overall internal mark for chemistry was the one that got rearranged, yet wouldn't it already be in place because this is what the ranks are based on?
Also, in terms of your cohort bringing up or down your marks, what mark is this for? Is it for your overall atar?
Thank you.
ATAR/SCALING Q+A THREADTo go straight to posts from 2018, click here.
What is this thread for?
If you have any questions about things like scaling, ranks, moderation or alignment - This is the place to ask! Why spend hours reading NESA documents when we can do it for you ;) 👌
To ask a question or make a post, you will first need an ATAR Notes account. You probably already have one, but if you don't, it takes about four seconds to sign up - and completely free!
Sooooo I'm pretty sure I'm getting Band 1 for Cafs, not even. The trial exam was soooooo difficult I felt so down about my performance. The questions were so hard that I don't even remember looking at them in class. Not to mention English Standard! For the two essays which are worth 5%, I COMPLETELY switched the related texts. For the Owen, I analysed 4 poems.
I do not know what to do. Only exam I found easy was senior science. Watch me fail in the HSC.
Hello!
The mark affected by rank is your internal mark. In the scenario you propose, your exam mark would be yours (the highest). Your moderated internal mark would be (it is more complicated than this but let's keep it simple) close to the 3rd highest exam mark on the day. The average of those two scores (exam and moderated) is your HSC mark for the course.
The internal mark itself (from assessments) is useless, it is only the ranks and how far apart/close they are that makes a difference :)
The cohort of the subject affects the scaling of the course, this is UAC's playing field and happens right at the end. Your school's cohort only affects the internal moderated marks, as above. Your ATAR is unaffected by your cohort, it is purely a rank telling you where you sit in the state at the end of the process ;D
hey all,,
just wondering, are state ranks decided upon based solely on exam mark (as in hsc performance only, no internals) or the final hsc mark (as in hsc performance + internals avergage, after moderation)
meaning, if your rank is not the best internally, but you manage to smash the hsc hypothetically could you get a state rank? i imagine at least a hundred people probably get the same highest raw mark in the hsc exam though? hmmm.
just asking out of curiosity. :)
thank youuu :)))
Hi Jamon, just a quick question, I'm currently 4th in physics, is it possible for me to get >90 in physics (HSC mark) and potentially >95 if neither 2nd and 3rd gets a band 6 but first does??. The difference between 4th and third is like 2 marks
If I'm the only person in a class, does that mean that my HSC raw mark will be just the average of my internal score and my score in the HSC?
Following on from mxrylyn, I'm in a class with only one other student, so how does that impact scaling and marks and stuff? Unrelated note, can't wait to be the only two people sitting in our school hall during the HSC exam lmao
Hey! So N's special provisions may affect how their mark is aligned, but it won't change the moderation process. Their aligned mark of 93 in the exam will be averaged with their moderated mark, which is likely to be reasonably close to the bottom of the aligned mark range, but it's impossible to say exactly where that could sit so I'm not going to hazard it :)Than that is extremely disheartening... At least I am working consistently after trials despite the shitty feelings of bombing internals very very badly because of panic attacks etc...
Analysing situations like this won't benefit you my friend. You need to abstract from it and focus on the work :)
What happens if I am ranked 1st in a class of two with a mark of 83 and the other person, who has a mark of 48 beats me in the HSC. With the 50-50 rule, will it change our ranks?
Follow up question. Do state ranks consider the internal assessment Mark, or are they only based on the performance in the actual HSC exam?
Follow up, follow up question.
If "The top assessment mark is immediately changed to equal the top examination mark in the cohort", which one copies which one. What happens if the top assessment Mark is greater than the top examination Mark. Or if the examination Mark is greater than the top assessment Mark. Which one becomes the mark question mark
External: situation 1
A = 95
B = 85
External Situation 2
A = 95
B = 93
Hi! So...
A: Internal = 85, External = 95, HSC Mark = 90
B: Internal = 95, External = 85, HSC Mark = 90
A: Internal = 93, External = 95, HSC Mark = 94
B: Internal = 95, External = 93, HSC Mark = 94
Thank you so much!
I am person A. I was far ahead in English and just got the worst trial marl ever for my discovery essay as my head teacher didnt like me doing a kids movie for my related text 😬. So im worried about how bieng 2nd will effect the moderation process, even if its only by 0.7
HSC marks, so moderated internals as well! If there is a tie, there are other procedures:
hi jamon, one more question.
for extension 2, im coming equal first out of 15 or so people. ive heard that this means our final external mark wil be the average of both our individual external marks. so does this mean im negatively affected if the other person (or vic versa) gets a really low external mark (which is possible merely due to
thank you!! :D ;D
hi jamon - does ^^^ that mean that state ranks are dependant on internals?? idk but i remember someone saying its purely based on the hsc exam unless there is a tie (very likely considering hsc tests the whole state) in which case internals are considered also.
thank youuu :)
Hello!
What would happen if, there were two people and a class and they are approximately 20% apart some one is at 65% and the other is at 51%,
what happens if in the HSC the one with 65% gets 95 and the one with 51% gets 40%?
also, as the person with 65%, is my moderated mark gong to be just whatever i got in the exam, or an average of both as i have been told many different things from teachers at school.
Thank youuu :)
Really hard to say on that first one, it depends on the rest of the class! Your moderated mark for internals is a super complicated thing but it definitely ISN’T just what you get in the exam.
https://atarnotes.com/how-does-scaling-work/ —> This guide explains it all!
Hey there 🙂
I just had a question about how to use ATAR Calculators. I was wondering do we put in what we think our raw marks will be or the HSC reported/ alligned marks we get the day before our ATAR?
So lets say (since I'm ranked first in all my subjects), I think I got 75/100 raw for 4U maths, do I put 75 in the HSC marks spot on the atar calculator, or do I put the 89/90 that it would be alligned to?
Because it makes a huge difference to the atar calculation if I were to put in my alligned marks, rather than the raw. Ie, I think I will get around 93/100 for legal studies raw, but that would be alligned to probably 96+, and gives a huge boost to the atar calculation
The day before your ATAR you will have your aligned/moderated marks, and those are what should go into those calculators for the most accurate (but still essentially guessing) estimate! You can't just put what you think your exam mark will align to, because moderation also plays into it and that is almost impossible to predict!
Honestly, I'd not be putting stuff into an ATAR calculator right now. Why torture yourself with false hopes or unnecessary doom and glooms? Enjoy a month and a half of not needing to know anything about your marks, try and separate yourself from it!! It's all guesswork anyway, so I'd personally try and avoid It :)
i got sick during the HSC examinations. I had DR Certs and illness/misadventure forms. I studied my butt off for a year and am really worried I have blown the exams. I was well for my 2 English papers and better for the final extension 1 paper, will they look at these results to see how well I could have done in
the others? Can I have faith in the system that my illness will be taken into account? How does it work?
i got sick during the HSC examinations. I had DR Certs and illness/misadventure forms. I studied my butt off for a year and am really worried I have blown the exams. I was well for my 2 English papers and better for the final extension 1 paper, will they look at these results to see how well I could have done inHey, I had a friend last year who didn't sit any of her exams bc of her health and her exam and assessment mark were the same, I think she said she got an estimste based on her assessment mark and rank
the others? Can I have faith in the system that my illness will be taken into account? How does it work?
I'm the only one in my school doing French extension, so does that mean that my internal assessments wouldn't really count, because my rank is already determined?
Howdy! I have always wondered how this works, because the stuff I've read would suggest that, yes, the internal stuff won't count because you are guaranteed first place. But that just seems strange!! I'm honestly not 100% sure either way - Has anyone reading this heard anything about this situation, perhaps someone who has studied a course by themselves?
Howdy! I have always wondered how this works, because the stuff I've read would suggest that, yes, the internal stuff won't count because you are guaranteed first place. But that just seems strange!! I'm honestly not 100% sure either way - Has anyone reading this heard anything about this situation, perhaps someone who has studied a course by themselves?
How do you reckon the scaling would be for the 2019 hsc.
What year will it be similar to?
Why is the performance of the whole cohort critical to getting a Band 6?
Hey! Sorry for the delayed reply to your Q ;D
It's not exactly 'critical,' plenty of people get B6's in 'poor-performing' cohorts. But it does make it easier if you are around the middle of the pack. You can read more here (https://atarnotes.com/how-does-scaling-work/), but basically, your cohorts' scores in the exam helps determine how your internal marks will moderate, meaning that if they do poorly in the exam, your internal mark might not be as high as you like, even if you personally do really well in the final exam.
The way to think about it is, if you are in a 'poor-performing' cohort, you just need to work hard to be ranked high in that cohort. To take that to the extreme, if you are ranked first and you also get the highest score in the final exam, it will be like your cohort never existed and you will just get your own mark. All of this is explained better in that link above :) hope that helps!
Eg. Your rank internally is 10/30 for legal and in the exam you do shit and become ranked 29/30 your internal mark will still be equivalent to the persons grade that came 10/30 .
Now we add the rank mark. and raw hsc mark , find the average and that is the star.
If your coming first in a subject internally then who ever gets ranked the highest grade in the exam will then become your internal exam mark.