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Author Topic: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?  (Read 4260 times)  Share 

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Stormbreaker-X

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Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« on: October 16, 2019, 11:08:03 am »
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So I am not going to an under represented school so does that mean it will be a lot harder for me to get into my course? The atar would be around 86 for students going to under-represented schools and 90+ for students who don't.  ??? ??? ???
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 11:12:31 am by Stormbreaker-X »

Bri MT

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 11:27:35 am »
+6
The Monash Guarantee doesn't just apply to underrepresented schools so make sure you check all of the categories; it's designed to help level-out various disadvantages students may face in their VCE

Stormbreaker-X

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2019, 11:33:23 am »
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Oh so I have checked it and fortunately I do live in a low social economics area, though I don't go to the school there. So I am eligible for that category right? Sorry if I sound stupid, but I just want to confirm with someone, better to know now then later.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 11:34:56 am by Stormbreaker-X »

Bri MT

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2019, 11:40:20 am »
+5
Not a stupid question, definitely understand why you'd ask :)

Living in a low socioeconomic area is one of the categories so you should still be eligible but I recommend checking to see if Monash counts your address as fitting that that category. Here's the link to more info

Stormbreaker-X

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2019, 12:00:17 pm »
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Thank you for the reply  :)
I checked and the adjustments can be so unfair, your atar gets a massive pump up. I feel bad for people living in wealthy areas and going to expensive private schools, getting into university can be really difficult considering that they don't fit into any of those criteria. I want to do engineering or med both sounds really prestigious and the atar mark would be around 90. *hint hint I might do law too* For some reason I kinda like that too.

Remy33

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2019, 12:12:19 pm »
-4
fortunately I do live in a low social economics area
I find this so ironic. Really shows all the issues with SEAS and how ridiculous it is.

Don't rely on these nonsensical charity points. If you really want to get into your course, then work hard to get a 90, not an 86.
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Stormbreaker-X

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 12:14:10 pm »
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I find this so ironic. Really shows all the issues with SEAS and how ridiculous it is.

Don't rely on these nonsensical charity points. If you really want to get into your course, then work hard to get a 90, not an 86.
Yeah I will work very hard to get 90 and yes I agree it can be really unfair for some people. As they get in to easily compared to more stronger cohorts/students. I think they should be adjusted, but not by a massive pump up. No one should lower their expectation, always aim high.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 12:17:28 pm by Stormbreaker-X »

PhoenixxFire

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 12:59:02 pm »
+15
I find this so ironic. Really shows all the issues with SEAS and how ridiculous it is.

Don't rely on these nonsensical charity points. If you really want to get into your course, then work hard to get a 90, not an 86.
No what it shows is that people don’t understand the effect of disadvantage on atar attainment.

Whilst SEAS isn’t always perfectly fair, it is neither nonsensical or charity, and saying that is insulting to the people who are disadvantaged throughout VCE and need bonus points to have an equal oppourtunity at atar dependant University entry.
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Remy33

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 01:50:38 pm »
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No what it shows is that people don’t understand the effect of disadvantage on atar attainment.

Whilst SEAS isn’t always perfectly fair, it is neither nonsensical or charity, and saying that is insulting to the people who are disadvantaged throughout VCE and need bonus points to have an equal oppourtunity at atar dependant University entry.
I go to a rural public school ranked in the bottom 30 in the state where the median ATAR is well below 50. Sorry if the truth hurts, but what students from schools like mine needs is not pity, but to be treated like everyone else. No bonus points, no special consideration.

SEAS is only effective in lowering these students' standards and expectations for themselves. Telling students like myself that we must have ""bonus points"" to be on an even playing ground is not what we need to hear. Thank you.
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PhoenixxFire

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 02:02:30 pm »
+12
I go to a rural public school ranked in the bottom 30 in the state where the median ATAR is well below 50. Sorry if the truth hurts, but what students from schools like mine needs is not pity, but to be treated like everyone else. No bonus points, no special consideration.

SEAS is only effective in lowering these students' standards and expectations for themselves. Telling students like myself that we must have ""bonus points"" to be on an even playing ground is not what we need to hear. Thank you.
The actual truth is that socioeconomic status is the single largest determiner of atar. The average atars of high ses students and low ses students who were performing at the same level in year nine were 10 points apart. On average, socioeconomic factors resulted in a 10 point difference over just those three years - this doesn't even account for differences in education attainment prior to year nine. This also doesn't take into account medical conditions, family circumstances, abuse, homelessness, refugee or indigenous status, and many other inequalities that SEAS accounts for.

The truth is that the playing field is not even, and your individual desire to not be treated differently does not entitle you to decide that the entirety of the SEAS system is ridiculous or that those who use it are getting charity or pity.
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Calebark

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 02:15:23 pm »
+13
Personally, I'm quite grateful that VTAC is so understanding about disadvantage — for example I don't think my disadvantage in being homeless during Year 12 could've been solved by merely studying harder or believing in myself. I think this applies to all VTAC-recognised disadvantage.

It's not that disadvantaged students can't achieve those grades, it's just that it could require more effort. Fortunately, unless I'm mistaken, SEAS is optional so you don't have to apply for it. The individual can decide and VTAC can make an expert judgement.
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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 04:17:20 pm »
+8
To OP: it's not that the entry requirements are increased for those who don't qualify for schemes like this, it's that they are reduced for those who do qualify.

I find this so ironic. Really shows all the issues with SEAS and how ridiculous it is.

Don't rely on these nonsensical charity points. If you really want to get into your course, then work hard to get a 90, not an 86.

Just from my experience and chats with friends back when we were all figuring out what to do after VCE, of the people who wanted to go to uni, no one ever thought that we were relying on schemes like these, but more appreciative that they exist should something happen or whatever. I qualified for the Monash Guarantee, however, I didn't need it at all - yet, I'm appreciative that the system existed.

I go to a rural public school ranked in the bottom 30 in the state where the median ATAR is well below 50. Sorry if the truth hurts, but what students from schools like mine needs is not pity, but to be treated like everyone else. No bonus points, no special consideration.

SEAS is only effective in lowering these students' standards and expectations for themselves. Telling students like myself that we must have ""bonus points"" to be on an even playing ground is not what we need to hear. Thank you.

I understand schemes like SEAS and the Monash Guarantee can be interpreted both as 'relief' and 'pity' simultaneously, but no one is suggesting someone who qualifies for varying categories of SEAS or uni specific access schemes is not capable of being a 'high achiever'.

Last semester, I wrote a decently lengthy paper for an assignment on youth access to education based on social factors - class, gender, race, (dis)ability - and there is resounding support throughout academic literature spanning decades for the idea that something like socioeconomic status alone can impact access to education and educational outcomes. That's the truth.

It may not be what you need to hear, but the fact that SEAS and uni access schemes exist may mean the difference for someone else.
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Stormbreaker-X

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 05:07:20 pm »
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SEAS tries to make things fair although not always, I am pretty sure someone will try to cheat the system. Eg. Private school moving to an under-represented school or moving houses etc. If you are not eligible it means you will get judged harshly and will need a highly atar in order to enter the course. Although a lot of people can be well purely with hard work, I don't think going to a low rank school should be eligible for Monash Guarantee unless they have other reasons. How does the school you attend and the low social economic area you live in affect your atar? Some people get a really unfair advantage.

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 05:26:35 pm »
+11
Some people get a really unfair advantage.
Yeah people who go to private schools, can afford tutors, all the extra resources/help they need, don't have to navigate centerlink/working part time to buy their own food/pay rent, are in good physical and mental health, don't have carer responsibilities (whether legal or due to inadequate parenting from those who are supposed to have it), those who have a science lab with enough microscopes for everyone, those who have school buildings that are in good functioning order, those who have a safe environment at home and don't have to avoid being there whenever possible for their physical/mental safety, those who don't have to worry about whether they're about to get evicted because their parents are struggling to pay rent, those who don't have to worry about whether their 5 year old laptop is about to break when they know they won't be able to afford a new one.

Those people sure do have an unfair advantage. That's the point of seas. To account for the difficulties faced by those who do have to deal with the (non-exhaustive) list of circumstances above which effects how much time they have to study/how hard it is for them to focus on studying.

SEAS tries to make things fair although not always, I am pretty sure someone will try to cheat the system. Eg. Private school moving to an under-represented school or moving houses etc. If you are not eligible it means you will get judged harshly and will need a highly atar in order to enter the course. Although a lot of people can be well purely with hard work, I don't think going to a low rank school should be eligible for Monash Guarantee unless they have other reasons. How does the school you attend and the low social economic area you live in affect your atar?
Both the school and the area you live in are indicators of socioeconomic status - they're not perfect indicators, but they are useful. Socioeconomic status has been shown again and again to be the largest predictor of atar attainment. School and postcode are used as a way to combat the differences in atar attainment which are due to socioeconomic status (ie. it doesn't intend to affect atar attainment due to hard work, just the % of atar which is correlated with ses status). Yes it is possible to cheat the system, I don't know of anyone who moved schools to do it, but I do know of people who have used a relatives address instead of their own. However, to me, and I would hope to others, a few people getting an unfair boost is an acceptable side effect for hundreds of people potentially having access to tertiary study options that they wouldn't otherwise have through no fault of their own.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:04:24 pm by PhoenixxFire »
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Stormbreaker-X

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Re: Not from a Monash under represented school=disadvantaged?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 07:30:57 pm »
+3
Yeah people who go to private schools, can afford tutors, all the extra resources/help they need, don't have to navigate centerlink/working part time to buy their own food/pay rent, are in good physical and mental health, don't have carer responsibilities (whether legal or due to inadequate parenting from those who are supposed to have it), those who have a science lab with enough microscopes for everyone, those who have school buildings that are in good functioning order, those who have a safe environment at home and don't have to avoid being there whenever possible for their physical/mental safety, those who don't have to worry about whether they're about to get evicted because their parents are struggling to pay rent, those who don't have to worry about whether their 5 year old laptop is about to break when they know they won't be able to afford a new one.

Those people sure do have an unfair advantage. That's the point of seas. To account for the difficulties faced by those who do have to deal with the (non-exhaustive) list of circumstances above which effects how much time they have to study/how hard it is for them to focus on studying.
Both the school and the area you live in are indicators of socioeconomic status - they're not perfect indicators, but they are useful. Socioeconomic status has been shown again and again to be the largest predictor of atar attainment. School and postcode are used as a way to combat the differences in atar attainment which are due to socioeconomic status (ie. it doesn't intend to affect atar attainment due to hard work, just the % of atar which is correlated with ses status). Yes it is possible to cheat the system, I don't know of anyone who moved schools to do it, but I do know of people who have used a relatives address instead of their own. However, to me, and I would hope to others, a few people getting an unfair boost is an acceptable side effect for hundreds of people potentially having access to tertiary study options that they wouldn't otherwise have through no fault of their own.
Well put and so amazingly worded, you must be really good at English, some thing that I need help the most with xD. Yeah I guess you are correct it does make things fair for many people who constantly worry about many things and it makes thing fair for those who struggle the most. I guess many don't understand what life is like unless they experience it for themselves.