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VCE Stuff => VCE Mathematics => VCE Mathematics/Science/Technology => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE Mathematical Methods CAS => Topic started by: hifer on November 02, 2007, 07:12:27 pm

Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: hifer on November 02, 2007, 07:12:27 pm
Hi there, do we always have to put the absolute sign when antidiffing to get logs? wat if the specified limits are positive?
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: bilgia on November 02, 2007, 09:02:04 pm
i dont think in methods...its in specialist
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Ahmad on November 02, 2007, 09:12:35 pm
No if the terminals are positive you don't have to put it. However, it doesn't take anymore time, neither is it wrong if you do.
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Freitag on November 02, 2007, 10:51:21 pm
It's just useful for things such as evaluating areas under the x-axis, when you don't know the area will come out without the absolute value signs as negatives.
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: joechan521 on November 03, 2007, 02:49:33 pm
i remember there was one VCAA exam 1 paper that u had to put modulus after anti into a log to be able to draw the graph

its prob in 2006 sample exam1
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: tankia on November 03, 2007, 02:57:42 pm
Wtf are you guys talking about *is intimidated* I don't know this stuff ><;
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Freitag on November 03, 2007, 06:04:22 pm
Quote from: "tankia"
Wtf are you guys talking about *is intimidated* I don't know this stuff ><;


Don't worry yourself too much.
Basically when you integrate a function with yields a log, (ie. dy/dx (1/x) --> y= log_e x), you put the brackets around the (in my example) x as modulus signs.

Ie. dy/dx = ( 1/x ) --> y= log_e |x|
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: tankia on November 04, 2007, 09:05:35 am
Quote from: "Freitag"
Quote from: "tankia"
Wtf are you guys talking about *is intimidated* I don't know this stuff ><;


Don't worry yourself too much.
Basically when you integrate a function with yields a log, (ie. dy/dx (1/x) --> y= log_e x), you put the brackets around the (in my example) x as modulus signs.

Ie. dy/dx = ( 1/x ) --> y= log_e |x|


Whyyy? Lol ....I'm so screwed for exams ><;
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Odette on November 04, 2007, 09:33:26 am
Poor Tankia :( there there, i'm sure you'll be fine =]
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Collin Li on November 04, 2007, 10:38:51 am
Quote from: "tankia"
Whyyy? Lol ....I'm so screwed for exams ><;


dy/dx = 1/x, find y: for R\{0}

Since 1/x is defined for all values except 0, the antiderivative (and the derivative) should also exist for those values.

Notice that ln(x) is only defined for x>0. To correct for this, we place: ln|x| so that it is defined for R\{0}. That's a floppy argument, and what I'm about to suggest is still floppy, but if you look at ln|x| for x is less than zero, you'll notice that it is decreasing. Look at 1/x, it is the derivative of ln|x| and for values less than zero, it has negative numbers! It makes sense.
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: tankia on November 04, 2007, 11:20:23 am
Quote from: "coblin"
Quote from: "tankia"
Whyyy? Lol ....I'm so screwed for exams ><;


dy/dx = 1/x, find y: for R\{0}

Since 1/x is defined for all values except 0, the antiderivative (and the derivative) should also exist for those values.

Notice that ln(x) is only defined for x>0. To correct for this, we place: ln|x| so that it is defined for R\{0}. That's a floppy argument, and what I'm about to suggest is still floppy, but if you look at ln|x| for x is less than zero, you'll notice that it is decreasing. Look at 1/x, it is the derivative of ln|x| and for values less than zero, it has negative numbers! It makes sense.


_.... You lost me at dy/dx >_>;
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Odette on November 04, 2007, 11:30:05 am
Quote from: "tankia"
Quote from: "coblin"
Quote from: "tankia"
Whyyy? Lol ....I'm so screwed for exams ><;


dy/dx = 1/x, find y: for R\{0}

Since 1/x is defined for all values except 0, the antiderivative (and the derivative) should also exist for those values.

Notice that ln(x) is only defined for x>0. To correct for this, we place: ln|x| so that it is defined for R\{0}. That's a floppy argument, and what I'm about to suggest is still floppy, but if you look at ln|x| for x is less than zero, you'll notice that it is decreasing. Look at 1/x, it is the derivative of ln|x| and for values less than zero, it has negative numbers! It makes sense.


_.... You lost me at dy/dx >_>;


Tanika I'll explain it to you on msn =]
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: tankia on November 04, 2007, 11:31:05 am
Okay :D
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Freitag on November 04, 2007, 03:58:26 pm
It seriously doesn't matter too much :p
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: tankia on November 04, 2007, 07:45:15 pm
Quote from: "Freitag"
It seriously doesn't matter too much :p


LOL. I was doing my FIRST practice exam (one that i actually finished...Thank the lord for solutions :D) and i finally got what you guys were talking about...kinda...some what..maybe...maybe not...Okay...Yea..I'll go back to procrastinating :D
Title: Antiderivative of Log
Post by: Galelleo on November 06, 2007, 02:00:09 pm
When you antiderive 1/x, loge|X| has a modulus sign because :

loge(x) = y

e^y = x

theres no way that x can be negative  because a positive constant (e) to the power of anything will never equal a negative.

eg. x^(1/50) = 50Rtx ... x^50... no matter which way you go it doesnt hit 0 or lower

not sure how to express what im trying to say.
e^x=y... as x --> 0, y --> 1.... and as x --> infinity, y also does

At least, thats why i thought we put a modulus in... why we only do it after antideriving im not sure, it could be something to do with the gradient of the graph going in a certain direction.

(edit: I just read what coblin wrote, lol ... i think ive just dumbed down what he said)