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Author Topic: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?  (Read 3246 times)  Share 

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Joseph41

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Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« on: August 13, 2018, 10:00:28 am »
0
Quote from: The Australian
Students with dismally poor high school results are being accepted into university teaching courses, setting off alarm bells about the quality of some Australian educators.
Source.

What do you think about this? According to the article, one student is now studying Education after achieving an ATAR of 17.90. Is this an acceptable standard to set? What implications might this have for future students?

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Sine

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2018, 12:12:24 pm »
+6
I mean, obviously I don't know enough about they student with the 17 ATAR to properly comment on that specifically but as a whole the standards of teaching need to be higher.

The standards of teaching for the average teacher is quite bad although the private schools and the top tier public will have those amazing teachers. I think it all stems the fact that teachers in Australian generally have bad reputations and are not respected well enough in comparison to other countries where teaching is one of the most prestigious jobs. As a result of this bad rep low proportions of the high achieving students want to do and those uni places just get shovelled down to the next person although I do think it's quite a nice job if you are content with it(holidays off, ideal hours -  a good teacher would be preparing for class in the time off but definitely less of a workload than a lot of other careers as you'll be repeating a lot of your content in following years.).

IMO a blanket rule of 80+ ATAR is ideal (although never gonna happen) but 70+ ATAR would be fine. However, it's definitely important for anyone with lower atar's who experienced disadvantages during high school to have the opportunity too (i.e. SEAS/bonus points). I'll go with the cliche that ATARs are not everything - which they aren't but in order to give the Australian education system a little bit of credibility along with improving the standards is definitely not a bad thing. If someone didn't do so well in year 12 they should be able to go to uni and do another degree and do education later. These cutoffs should definitely be there if you want to teach VCE subjects but for primary school lower cutoffs are alright as long as those teachers have other qualities that are useful in primary school.


Quantum44

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2018, 07:28:45 pm »
+5
Source.

What do you think about this? According to the article, one student is now studying Education after achieving an ATAR of 17.90. Is this an acceptable standard to set? What implications might this have for future students?

I think generally speaking, that there is a lack of quality students going on to become teachers due to its relatively low pay and low prestige when considering the responsibility teachers have. Without accounting for an individual’s circumstances, there should definitely be some kind of minimum ATAR required to enter an education course, although at this stage it doesn’t seem viable as universities really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to enroll students in their teaching courses (although I assume they are training more teachers than positions available as in a lot of courses).
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Joseph41

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2018, 12:10:38 pm »
+1
Interesting thoughts so far!

For those currently studying Education, do you feel as though your degree has diminished worth due to the lower standards such as those outlined in the OP?

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Aaron

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2018, 05:39:14 pm »
+9
So.. a few thoughts

1) Alot of comments regarding this issue and teaching in general is quite irresponsible and disrespectful. Quite frankly i'm sick to death of the teacher bashing by media/those that have zero clue about what it entails. Again, usually this involves somebody who has only experienced school as a student and this automatically makes them an expert on the issue. It doesn't in the slightest. I also don't agree in the slightest that private schools have the best teachers. In reality, private school teachers don't get paid much more than public school teachers. You want to know why more talented people aren't going into teaching? Money, profession bashing by those that have nfi and lack of respect. I'd also throw in crowded curriculum but that isn't a main factor (to me at least). Can I also just say that nearly every single teacher that I have taught with stays back at least 1 hour extra after the students leave and works significant hours at home (that are unpaid - the day doesn't stop after the "9-5")

Just for a bit of context.. here are some observations i've made so far that put me off teaching (even though I love it, it's not perfect):
- lack of differentiation due to school imposed pedagogy/unit plans/assumptions that everybody learns/is the same (discussed below)
- significant lack of funding in the public system (this is probably the only benefit I can see to a private school education as opposed to public) - teachers have the resources to expand but the quality of the teacher itself remains the same.
- contracts - who the hell wants a fixed term contract? I'm on my THIRD fixed term contract in under 2 years and the lack of stability imo would put nearly anybody decent off. It is so tough to get a permanent teaching job, especially in the public system. In some cases you have to actually REAPPLY for your job. Again, who wants to do that? Talk about lack of security.
- tech use. still an issue today. Actually, tech in general. My primary discipline is IT and the fact that schools would rather promote other stuff really puts me off.
- respect from community and students: "those that can't do, teach". Can I just say that in the 21st century, this could NOT be further from the truth. You might be able to get away with sub-standard teaching at VCE given it's explicit structure etc. but definitely in 7-10 creativity and teaching students soft skills is a priority.

2) Somebody with a high ATAR does not make them a great teacher by default. Somebody with the personality and the emotional/mental capacity who can engage and inspire, is a good fit. I personally object to the ATAR even being a standard for entry into teaching (let alone any other degree) - I am in favour of interviews/personality tests/community involvement/internship being the deciding factors rather than a rank for 1-2 years of study. It's great that we're starting to move into attitude testing etc. (e.g. CASPER).

I know my content but if I can't engage my students, relate to them, be a supporter of them and their needs, and have the personality of a peanut, then it's going to be an absolute disaster.

3) Already, teaching courses have significant placement demands which act as checkpoints throughout the degree. An experienced teacher makes informed judgement based on their practical application of skills learnt and whether or not they would make a good teacher. You literally CANNOT pass the degree if your placement schools don't endorse your teaching - they have to sign a document at the end to state that they believe you are capable and of good quality.

4) To get through a degree in itself is an achievement. I believe that if somebody has the determination to get through a four year Bachelor of Teaching and all placement rounds, this makes up the ATAR shortfall. Personally I feel that teachers should go through the Bachelor in xxx specific discipline -> MTeach route for specialist knowledge... but that's for another discussion!

5) As of a few years ago, every aspiring teacher has to sit AND PASS a literacy and numeracy test to signify they are in "the top 30%". Self explanatory.

6) Graduate teachers usually don't teach VCE in their first year (it's rare for this to happen in any school). I'm teaching VCE for the first time this year and I feel that i'm doing a pretty damn good job. Oh, and by the way, my ATAR was 65. I know I repeat myself constantly by saying "I have a Bachelor degree and Masters, look at me now"... but it's true. I don't feel i'm a crap teacher in the slightest due to my ATAR that I received nearly 6 years ago which reflected a period in my life where I was immature. I turned it all around in uni when peers/environment were changed. I suppose I am "triggered" due to some of the minimums being floated around by govt and others. Minimum of 70+ (lower end of the scale people are talking about) would mean I wouldn't have been able to pursue my dream of becoming a teacher. Think about that for a moment.

Of course, there are some sub-standard teachers around.. don't doubt it in the slightest. A few reasons:
- school structures/pedagogy/instructional frameworks. Teachers have to follow what the school has put in place.
- those that have been around for decades where the whole "factory" approach to teaching (e.g. start Year 7, end Year 12, no intervention/differentiation etc) was in its prime.

I know this probably sounds like me being overdefensive but jesus christ i'm bloody sick of it.

I knew what I wanted to do. I could've chosen a career in IT as i'm qualified in this discipline but had it all mapped out already. It takes a special person to be a teacher and I have an enormous amount of respect for anybody that decides they want to join us (ATAR of 15 or ATAR or 99.95). There are benchmarks/checkpoints in place, just the media loves to hype up a ridiculous number that means zilch after you get into uni (and does it really reflect merit.. eh.. that's questionable).

Quote from: Joseph41
Interesting thoughts so far!

For those currently studying Education, do you feel as though your degree has diminished worth due to the lower standards such as those outlined in the OP?

I know I studied an MTeach so this doesn't really apply to me (as this relates to high school leavers and the Bachelor equivalent) but if somebody has the genuine grit and determination to pass the four years and all placement rounds (realistically teaching is a vocation when you look at it), then good on them and all the best to their continuous learning journey. Teaching, after all, is a learning journey. We never stop.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 06:08:34 pm by Aaron »
Experience in teaching at both secondary and tertiary levels.

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katie,rinos

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 11:08:00 am »
+4
Saw this article this morning:

New NSW teachers to require a credit average, 'superior' intelligence

Students who began an education degree from next year, must have a credit average and will only be allowed to apply for jobs in the public system once they have shown superior cognitive and emotional intelligence in a psychometric test administered by the Department of Education. They will also need to demonstrate commitment to the values of public education. Applicants with online-only degrees will also be sent to the end of the queue and students' practical teaching experience will be heavily scrutinised.
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Bri MT

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 01:13:48 pm »
+5
Saw this article this morning:

New NSW teachers to require a credit average, 'superior' intelligence

Students who began an education degree from next year, must have a credit average and will only be allowed to apply for jobs in the public system once they have shown superior cognitive and emotional intelligence in a psychometric test administered by the Department of Education. They will also need to demonstrate commitment to the values of public education. Applicants with online-only degrees will also be sent to the end of the queue and students' practical teaching experience will be heavily scrutinised.


Teachers should be more valued, and it seems like the way that govt. is going about this is to pick people who are already valued and putting them (only) onto education.   While I'm neither a teacher nor studying teaching, from my perspective teaching is more about EQ (emotional intelligence) than IQ, and I'm not sure that online testing for EQ will be a valid or accurate method of measuring it.

Anyone can say that they value inclusivity and diversity in an interview so I'm not sure about that either...


That being said, at least they are doing something

Sine

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Re: Studying Education With ATARs Below 25.00 - Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 01:41:28 pm »
+5
Saw this article this morning:

New NSW teachers to require a credit average, 'superior' intelligence

Students who began an education degree from next year, must have a credit average and will only be allowed to apply for jobs in the public system once they have shown superior cognitive and emotional intelligence in a psychometric test administered by the Department of Education. They will also need to demonstrate commitment to the values of public education. Applicants with online-only degrees will also be sent to the end of the queue and students' practical teaching experience will be heavily scrutinised.
Seems to be steps in the right direction since the uni's aren't doing much to change the intakes (from my knowledge)
Credit average; not 100% sure but I think that is a 60+ average for most unis which is decent (defs better than just passing with 50's) but not sure objectively how much better a credit is to a pass in an education degree.
The thing about psychometric tests (especially in a interview setting) is that anyone can get pre-planned responses for those but a few more hoops to jump through is ok imo. Superior cognitive intelligence could be tested via an MCQ test so that could be a good indicator too and you can't really learn for those tests. Although you never know the standards they are going to set for these tests so may not make a difference in the end.

I think having regular tests/checks for teachers could be useful because I've seen too many teachers always come in as fresh graduates with so much promise and doing so much work but once they get their first long term contract they start just doing the bare minimum.

So I don't necessarily agree that all these changes are needed or that useful but definitely better than the status quo.