ATAR Notes: Forum

VCE Stuff => Victorian Technical Score Discussion => Topic started by: Orb on April 05, 2015, 10:59:59 am

Title: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 05, 2015, 10:59:59 am
Throughout the past few months I've noticed countless topics and threads with the same (or similar) questions posted:

'If I'm rank one does that mean my exam decides if I get a 50 or not?'

'If I'm ranked 85th can I still get a 40'

'Do rankings really matter so much'

'I failed my first SAC does this mean I'm doomed'

'What happens if my SAC ranking is not good enough'

If those are the questions buzzing inside your mind right now, relax and grab a cookie. Seriously.
Just first up, don't stress. Your SAC ranking right now means virtually little or nothing as only 10-25% of SACs have been completed for the year so it's by no means fixed. Without further ado, a detailed analysis of what rankings construe and an attempt to answer all questions you have about rankings have been made.

Rankings:
Imagine that we have a cohort of 5 students (Yes, most cohorts are much larger, but for the sake of demonstrating the concept of rankings, i'm only going to use 5.)

Student A: Average 95%, Rank 1
Student B: Average 80%, Rank 2
Student C: Average 65%, Rank 3
Student D: Average 40%, Rank 4
Student E: Average 10%, Rank last/5.

Your teachers submit your SAC averages out of whatever score criteria VCAA requires them to submit as, for example, 95/100 or 190/200 or 285/300, you get the gist. They also submit what is known as your 'Rank' (this is highlighted in bold above (see Rank 1). It is essentially the ranking or what place you are within your year, based on your performances in SACs throughout the year. To those of you who believe that this is a competition in your own school, it IS. Note, do not attempt to sabotage your friends because that just makes you pretentious, self-interested and sets you up for failure later in life. There's more to life than just VCE, trust me, there is :)


Once your teachers have submitted their SAC rankings and your SAC grades, remember guys, your SAC marks (so whether you got 190 or 195/200) doesn't mean anything at the end, it's just submitted for the purpose of submitting it (rankings are what matters), VCAA looks at your exam grades. In our previous hypothetical scenario (in a common subject like Maths Methods):

Student A: Exam score: 204/240
Student B: Exam score: 236/240
Student C: Exam score: 210/240
Student D: Exam score: 112/240
Student E: Exam score: 80/240

Wait, you say, Rank 1 got a lower score than Rank 2 and 3? And this is just out of 5 students?! What happens now?? SAC scaling lets student B and C do well, right?

Yes, and no. What happens now is VCAA creates SAC scaling according to the respective exam scores of what students obtain. Because Student B got 236/240 on the exam and Rank 1 score in that cohort, a remarkable result, VCAA will scale the Rank 1 SACs to 100/100 (generally). This means that Student A, Rank 1, will now 'take' that 100/100 (and thank Student B, generously for 'carrying' his SAC grades, which is why a lot of schools push for students to help each other on the exam). Guys, if your friends do well on the exam, you get a better result too, win-win!!

Now, you ask, what happens to Student B? What happens to his SAC grade? Unfortunately, Student B would have received a 100/100 if Student A did just as well as him, or if Student C/D/E did better. Student B, being Rank 2, will now receive the 2nd best exam score's scaled SAC equivalent. So now, Student B receives C's SAC score scaled. We see that Student C got 210/240, so that'll probably scale to a 92-95/100 SAC-wise, and so Student B's Study Score would have been affected by around 1-2 Study Scores. Not a big deal, but then again, that's the difference of one rank in this circumstance.

Note: With a larger cohort, these inconsistencies are generally balanced out as the entire top 5-10 students can't all flunk the exam or do unnaturally poorly.

What happens to Student C, D and E then? Student C will receive Student A's exam score's scaled SAC equivalent, which happens to be very close to his own score, so he'll more or less receive the same Study Score.
Students D and E are unaffected because they received the same Exam rank as they did SAC rank.

End result?

Student A: +2 Study Score than what is deserved from the Exam
B: -2
C,D,E: No change

(remember that the numbers are all theoretical, it depends vastly on the subject and SAC weighting. For Maths, SACs-Exam are weighted 33-66, for some subjects it's as much as 60-40 the other way around).

Q: So if I'm rank 1 then nothing matters anymore, right?
Yes, you are the sole factor behind your Study Score. If you full mark your Exam as Rank 1, you will get a 50, no doubt. If you do badly, you may still get an A+ SAC score if others in your cohort do very well. So yes, Rank 1 is always an optimal goal.

Q: If i'm rank 300, can I still get a 50 if I ace the exam?
Right now, rank 300 can easily be clawed to top 20, let's say by the end of the year if you start working hard and committing yourself to your work. A top 20 ranking in a cohort can scale to 95-100/100 SAC-wise, especially for Maths subjects, allowing you to get a 50. If this is at the end of the year, if your SACs only scale to 70/100, you'll be hard pressed to get a 40, let alone a 50. (Those 30 SAC marks is around 10-15 exam marks in Mathematics, very hard to make up). In languages, the difficulty of climbing is exacerbated even more, and you'll probably be hard pressed to get a 35.

Q: If I get an 80% SAC average and 100% on the exam, will I receive the same S.S as someone who got 100% SAC average and 80% on the exam?

Not very likely. Your actual averages mean next to nothing and SACs will generally scale, whether it's up (from tough SACs) or down (from notoriously easy SACs).

Q: I've heard of people coming rank 30 or something like that, acing the exam and getting Study Scores close to 50, why is that?

This is a very common question. That rank 30 comes from a super strong cohort where a Rank 30 can scale to something close enough to 95-98/100 and thus, an aced exam leads to a 49/50 S.S. If your SAC scales well from your ranking, your actual ranking doesn't matter anymore.

For all Study Score purposes (excluding bragging rights), Rank 15 = Rank 1 if they all scale to 100/100. Of course, Rank 1 still sounds better (and probably feels better too), but in a practical sense there's no difference.

Q: If I get an 80% SAC average and 100% on the exam, will I receive the same S.S as someone who got 100% SAC average and 80% on the exam?

Not very likely. Your actual averages mean next to nothing and SACs will generally scale, whether it's up (from tough SACs) or down (from notoriously easy SACs).

Q: I'm worried about my ranking right now, what can I do?

You can't change your ranking until the next SAC, so focus on performing your best on that SAC.

Q: I'm doing badly on my 1/2 subject, does this affect my 3/4s?

From a technical sense, no.
Unit 1/2 subjects lay the foundation for your 3/4, so it makes good sense to ensure that you have a strong foundation to build upon. However, if you score very badly for your 1/2 subject, you can still receive a high Study Score provided you put in the work between now and when you commence your 3/4.

Q: What happens if I'm ranked last but full marked the exam?
I'm going to assume that you're creating this hypothetical situation from the worst possible SAC scaled score, so that's assuming ranked last in a terrible cohort but somehow 'full marked' the exam.
Firstly, VCAA would probably check you for cheating and go through all their processes because this kind of thing never happens. Then they'd check your past SACs, and so on..
From a mathematical standpoint though, assume your SAC rank scaled to 20/100. If you full marked an exam like English, then you get an exam equivalent of 100/100 (60 scales to 100).
Total score? 120/200. That's enough for 60/100 SACs + 60/100 exam which is similar to a 36/60 exam score (6/10 essays). Probably a 30, 35 if you're really lucky?
For Maths, 20+200/200 = 220/300 which is only 80 + 140/200, so a 40 at best.
Full marking the exam doesn't mean much if your SACs are screwed, but this kind of scenario will most likely never exist in the first place.

Q: If you were rank 2/3 and you perform better than rank 1 in the exam, rank 1 takes your exam mark? is that true??

Let us say that Student B is Rank 2 and achieved 100/100 on his final exam. Student A is Rank 1 but 'only' achieved 95/100 on his final exam.

For the SACs component of the subject, Student A will receive the scaled 100 from Student B, whereas Student B for his SACs will receive a scaled 98 or 99 from Student A's exam performance. It might seem a tad 'unfair' to some, but remember that SACs are an indication of how well you've performed throughout the year, and the exam is just an indication of how well you perform during one exam (or maybe two). In the circumstances of the exam, one poorly answered question is often the difference between a 100 and 95, whereas it takes 4 or 5 poorly answered questions (or more) in SACs to make that difference.

Note: You will retain your own exam mark. That will never change, it's simply your SAC component of your study score that gets adjusted according to how well your cohort performs.

Summary: Rankings aren't really so mysterious, but the way VCAA operates ensures that every year new Year 11s are oblivious and blind to how they work, making VCE all that more elusive. Hope this was able to inform you more about the process behind SAC rankings and how they affect your study score. Never downplay the importance of SAC rankings in relation to your Study Score, but don't let it overwhelm you either. It is certainly not too late right now to make a change for the better. If you have any further questions please comment or reply to this thread and i'll include the question and answer for future students.

All the best, VCE students :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Zealous on April 05, 2015, 01:00:07 pm
Very well written hamo94! It'll definitely clear up a lot of questions about the SAC ranking system.

I love how you always wrote "exam score's SAC scaled equivalent" because that is extremely important when it comes to the scaling of SAC marks. A lot of people think that if Rank 1 scores 75% on the exam, they will receive 75% SAC marks, but that's not the case. If the exam was extremely hard, and the majority of 75% scoring exam students around the state actually had 100% SAC marks, then SAC marks of the other 75% student will likely scale to 100% as well. This is something I learnt when I checked my Statement of Study Score for Methods - I didn't get anywhere near 100% in the exams, but my SAC marks well still pushed up to 100/100, so the "exam score SAC scaled equivalent" is really what comes into play.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: cosine on April 06, 2015, 09:06:32 am
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you're last rank with like 0% SAC scores, but don't drop a single mark on the exam?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 06, 2015, 10:16:53 am
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you're last rank with like 0% SAC scores, but don't drop a single mark on the exam?

Answered :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: strawberries on April 06, 2015, 07:15:36 pm
Q: What happens if I'm ranked last but full marked the exam?
I'm going to assume that you're creating this hypothetical situation from the worst possible SAC scaled score, so that's assuming ranked last in a terrible cohort but somehow 'full marked' the exam.
Firstly, VCAA would probably check you for cheating and go through all their processes because this kind of thing never happens. Then they'd check your past SACs, and so on..
From a mathematical standpoint though, assume your SAC rank scaled to 20/100. If you full marked an exam like English, then you get an exam equivalent of 100/100 (60 scales to 100).
Total score? 120/200. That's enough for 60/100 SACs + 60/100 exam which is similar to a 36/60 exam score (6/10 essays). Probably a 30, 35 if you're really lucky?
For Maths, 20+200/200 = 220/300 which is only 80 + 140/200, so a 40 at best.
Full marking the exam doesn't mean much if your SACs are screwed, but this kind of scenario will most likely never exist in the first place.
:o
damn I always thought your exam score WAS your study score especially if you had shit SAC marks
so I guess we all need to try our best in SACs!

Great post though hamo94, thanks for it :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: scarletmoon on April 06, 2015, 07:59:12 pm
So if you have a low rank on the first SAC but then do really well on the next SAC, stay rank 1 for the rest of the year and full mark the exam, there's a chance of getting 50?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 06, 2015, 08:16:30 pm
:o
damn I always thought your exam score WAS your study score especially if you had shit SAC marks
so I guess we all need to try our best in SACs!

Great post though hamo94, thanks for it :)

Glad I clarified something for you! Hopefully this will be a great reference point in years to come :)

So if you have a low rank on the first SAC but then do really well on the next SAC, stay rank 1 for the rest of the year and full mark the exam, there's a chance of getting 50?

Provided you get a good exam result, definitely!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: thaaanyan on April 07, 2015, 07:04:27 am
Hi!
So can some one clarify this for me?
I'm really confused. So basically, in the explanation that if you were rank 2/3 and you perform better than rank 1 in the exam, rank 1 takes your exam mark? is that true?? And you get the second best exam mark/third best exam mark in your cohort in accordance to your rank? is there any way around that?? with rank 2/3 getting a higher score than rank 1? does that mean that if rank 1 does terribly on the exam they still get someone else's mark who worked really hard? I'm not sure I understand, it feels unfair.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: grannysmith on April 07, 2015, 07:55:15 am
Hi!
So can some one clarify this for me?
I'm really confused. So basically, in the explanation that if you were rank 2/3 and you perform better than rank 1 in the exam, rank 1 takes your exam mark? is that true?? And you get the second best exam mark/third best exam mark in your cohort in accordance to your rank? is there any way around that?? with rank 2/3 getting a higher score than rank 1? does that mean that if rank 1 does terribly on the exam they still get someone else's mark who worked really hard? I'm not sure I understand, it feels unfair.
Rank 1 will take your exam mark as their SAC mark, but their exam marks (and everyone elses') remains the same.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 07, 2015, 09:45:45 am
Hi!
So can some one clarify this for me?
I'm really confused. So basically, in the explanation that if you were rank 2/3 and you perform better than rank 1 in the exam, rank 1 takes your exam mark? is that true?? And you get the second best exam mark/third best exam mark in your cohort in accordance to your rank? is there any way around that?? with rank 2/3 getting a higher score than rank 1? does that mean that if rank 1 does terribly on the exam they still get someone else's mark who worked really hard? I'm not sure I understand, it feels unfair.

Granny had a nice answer, thread has been edited accordingly :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: grannysmith on April 20, 2015, 03:26:15 pm
Hey Hamo, are separate SAC marks submitted for unit 3 & 4 in the maths subjects? Or are they just under GA1?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 20, 2015, 03:57:52 pm
Hey Hamo, are separate SAC marks submitted for unit 3 & 4 in the maths subjects? Or are they just under GA1?

SAC marks are all under GA1, so your U3 + U4 is combined together, meaning if your U3 was mediocre but U4 was 100%, then it'd pull you to a decent SAC grades :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: scarletmoon on April 21, 2015, 03:48:14 pm
Wait I though GA1 was unit 3 GA2 was Unit 4 and GA3 was the exam?

Also do the predicted grades that teachers send to VCAA affect your study score?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: brenden on April 21, 2015, 04:03:48 pm
Wait I though GA1 was unit 3 GA2 was Unit 4 and GA3 was the exam?

Also do the predicted grades that teachers send to VCAA affect your study score?
Hamo's answer was specific to math subjects, which have two exams (one for each of GA 1 and 2)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Splash-Tackle-Flail on April 21, 2015, 05:21:49 pm
Quick question how to they discern between ranks if the ranks are really close together? Eg rank one is 100, rank two is 99 then rank 3-9999 is like 30-80 ( just hypothetically speaking).
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 21, 2015, 07:54:06 pm
Wait I though GA1 was unit 3 GA2 was Unit 4 and GA3 was the exam?

Also do the predicted grades that teachers send to VCAA affect your study score?

Predicted grades do not affect your Study Score. They're there just in case you get something significantly lower than your predicted score.

Quick question how to they discern between ranks if the ranks are really close together? Eg rank one is 100, rank two is 99 then rank 3-9999 is like 30-80 ( just hypothetically speaking).

Your ranking is all they use to base their scaling, your actual score is pretty arbitrary and just there really for the sake of writing it on your Statement of Marks.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Peanut Butter on April 24, 2015, 07:06:29 pm
Just to clarify, the overall SAC rankings are given to VCAA, not each indivdual SAC ranking?

So if on one of my SAC's I got a bad mark/rank, but managed to do extremely well on the rest of the SAC's and be rank one overall, I can still achieve a study score of 50 (given I ace the exams)?

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: wunderkind52 on April 24, 2015, 07:13:28 pm
Just to clarify, the overall SAC rankings are given to VCAA, not each indivdual SAC ranking?

So if on one of my SAC's I got a bad mark/rank, but managed to do extremely well on the rest of the SAC's and be rank one overall, I can still achieve a study score of 50 (given I ace the exams)?

Thanks! :)

Your school gives VCAA your actual SAC rank and marks as well. (It can be seen on your Statement of Study Score).
However, this is irrelevant, because VCAA doesn't purely modify your SAC based on your mark, they modify it according to ranking. So in other words, if you get a 50% SAC mark and are rank one, that can be scaled up to 100 and get a 50.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inspired on April 25, 2015, 10:44:18 pm
Amazing post Hamo94! Really does clear up the controversies associated with ranking and SS.

I have a doubt, is it possible in a competitive cohort (selective) to average B+ for both GA1&2 and an A for the exam to get a 40? Although there are many more sacs to go, I was just wondering if it's still possible in such a cohort with those marks :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 26, 2015, 10:06:04 am
Amazing post Hamo94! Really does clear up the controversies associated with ranking and SS.

I have a doubt, is it possible in a competitive cohort (selective) to average B+ for both GA1&2 and an A for the exam to get a 40? Although there are many more sacs to go, I was just wondering if it's still possible in such a cohort with those marks :)

Assuming you've read the post and the mathematics, i'm still not quite sure which scenario you're referring to, but:

1) Averaging B+ but Rank 1, meaning getting an exam with a high A (SACs scaled to A+, since it's a selective school). High A+ Sacs with high A exam will most likely get you over the 40 mark.

2) Averaging B+ in terms of end scaled SAC equivalent. That coupled with a high A in a subject like English will get you more around the scores of a 33-35 range, in Maths probably 35-37
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: lpnly on April 27, 2015, 05:14:16 pm
What would happen if I were to rank in the top 3 in a below average cohort for English and score low A+ for SAC's and exams, can I get a 40?
Likewise, how much can my SAC's mark get dragged down in a below average cohort where I sit in the top tier of high performing students in my year level?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on April 27, 2015, 05:20:09 pm
What would happen if I were to rank in the top 3 in a below average cohort for English and score low A+ for SAC's and exams, can I get a 40?
Likewise, how much can my SAC's mark get dragged down in a below average cohort where I sit in the top tier of high performing students in my year level?

Again, the best info you can possibly get right now is what the SAC marks scaled to (from a Year 12 in 2014, let's say) and go from there.

Hypothetically:
Scaled A+ for U3 and U4, so let's say 90/100. A low A+ for your exam will lean you closer to a 39 but very possibly a 40/41.
Your SAC marks will only get dragged down if the people above you underperform and there's no one below you who overperform.

Tl;dr the higher the overperformer:underperformer ratio is in your year, the better it is for you.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Splash-Tackle-Flail on June 02, 2015, 10:44:19 pm
Even though you said if you're rank 1 that's all that matters; what happens if you're equal rank one? What happens then?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: odeaa on June 02, 2015, 10:53:47 pm
Even though you said if you're rank 1 that's all that matters; what happens if you're equal rank one? What happens then?
they have to give it as a ranking, so I think they just call it on who they think is more likely to do well in the exam (by judgement or by class tests or something like that)  and then just submit them as rank 1
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Splash-Tackle-Flail on June 03, 2015, 06:41:41 am
they have to give it as a ranking, so I think they just call it on who they think is more likely to do well in the exam (by judgement or by class tests or something like that)  and then just submit them as rank 1

Really? So if two people say ended up with 98/100 or something, they'd use their opinion to send Vcaa the scores, and also the ranking (e.g. like
Student A: 98/100 rank 1
Student B: 98/100 rank 2

In this case is the rank 1 person still affected by rank 2's performance? or vice versa?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 03, 2015, 09:47:20 am
Really? So if two people say ended up with 98/100 or something, they'd use their opinion to send Vcaa the scores, and also the ranking (e.g. like
Student A: 98/100 rank 1
Student B: 98/100 rank 2

In this case is the rank 1 person still affected by rank 2's performance? or vice versa?
No, lol, they just put Student A, Student B with the same score and therefore, the same rank.
This is what happened in Chinese last year, so very small sample space, but i'm assuming they generalise this for everything.

I'm sure in most cases, the SACs will split students so there's not more than 2-3 people on the same rank, otherwise it does become much of an issue if 10% of the cohort is on the same rank haha
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Splash-Tackle-Flail on June 03, 2015, 10:00:43 am
No, lol, they just put Student A, Student B with the same score and therefore, the same rank.
This is what happened in Chinese last year, so very small sample space, but i'm assuming they generalise this for everything.

I'm sure in most cases, the SACs will split students so there's not more than 2-3 people on the same rank, otherwise it does become much of an issue if 10% of the cohort is on the same rank haha

Ah I see so what happened for chinese if the two of three people on equal rank one got different exam scores? Does the average of the top two exam marks become both their sac scores after moderation? Or do they both get the highest exam mark as their sac mark?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Adequace on June 03, 2015, 11:32:08 am
Again, the best info you can possibly get right now is what the SAC marks scaled to (from a Year 12 in 2014, let's say) and go from there.

Hypothetically:
Scaled A+ for U3 and U4, so let's say 90/100. A low A+ for your exam will lean you closer to a 39 but very possibly a 40/41.
Your SAC marks will only get dragged down if the people above you underperform and there's no one below you who overperform.

Tl;dr the higher the overperformer:underperformer ratio is in your year, the better it is for you.
Abit off topic but, if you really get those scores for English are you only in the range of a 39-41 SS?

That's demoralising..
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 03, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
Ah I see so what happened for chinese if the two of three people on equal rank one got different exam scores? Does the average of the top two exam marks become both their sac scores after moderation? Or do they both get the highest exam mark as their sac mark?

Basically, I was equal 3 with someone else and we received the same scaled SAC score so yes, you get the same SAC mark.
They'd both receive the highest exam mark. Although note that some schools may write your ranking differently, a.k.a you could both get 98 but they'd pencil you down as 1 and 2 instead of 1 and 1.

Abit off topic but, if you really get those scores for English are you only in the range of a 39-41 SS?

That's demoralising..

48/60 for the exam (low A+) + scaled 90/100 would get you 39-41.
Note that it's a scaled 90/100, so depending on how good your school is, that could be either rank 1, or rank 30-40 (at mine).
Just work hard and don't worry too much about this :D
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: strawberries on June 03, 2015, 07:25:38 pm
If you have a cohort of, say, 5 people, is it possible to still get the highest SS amongst the students in your cohort if you're ranked last? Assuming you ace the exam and they don't.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: appleandbee on June 03, 2015, 08:56:57 pm
If you have a cohort of, say, 5 people, is it possible to still get the highest SS amongst the students in your cohort if you're ranked last? Assuming you ace the exam and they don't.

To answer your question, in a small cohort, anything is possible. If the cohort is really strong, being ranked last isn’t the end of the world (I guess VCE isn’t the end the world either), and there is a possibility of everyone getting 40+. I’ve came across small cohorts (not as small as 5 people but about 15-24), where about 80% of the students got 40+, medians in low to mid 40s, the lowest scoring student achieving high 30s and as well 3 premiers awards. I actually think is an advantage if the top ranked students are topping the exams.

On another note, I don’t think you should be concerned about whether ‘the other students don’t ace the exams’ or ‘getting the highest SS as a result”, because you can’t control how other people perform in the exams, all you can do from now until the exams is do your best in the remaining SACS (hopefully raising your ranking in the process) and the exam. The reality is that a higher ranking student is more likely to get a higher score in the score in the exam relative to the rest of the cohort. At the end of the day in a regards to exams, it doesn't really matter how well you do relative to the cohort, but rather the state. In small cohorts, the lowest ranked student may not get the highest SS in their group, but could still obtain a very high SS in comparison to the state, if the cohort is strong. As mention before, the top ranked students killing the exams is more of an advantage than a disadvantage for the rest of the cohort.

Good luck! :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: ValiantIntellectual on June 16, 2015, 05:37:40 pm
I have a question

Since study scores are composed of 3 GAs. Let's say you bombed out on your unit 3 sacs.
So you are ranked last or even ranked in the middle. Then you smashed unit 4 sacs and smashed the exam.
I have heard you need all A pluses for all GAs to scrape a 40 in a subject so if you have already stuffed up your unit 3 sacs, then does that mean no matter how well the exam and your unit 4 sacs go. You will not get a 40 plus?
Like,since one GA is below an A plus, no matter wheat you do you can't get above a 40 as your unit 3 sacs are just too low.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: dankfrank420 on June 16, 2015, 06:43:59 pm
I have a question

Since study scores are composed of 3 GAs. Let's say you bombed out on your unit 3 sacs.
So you are ranked last or even ranked in the middle. Then you smashed unit 4 sacs and smashed the exam.
I have heard you need all A pluses for all GAs to scrape a 40 in a subject so if you have already stuffed up your unit 3 sacs, then does that mean no matter how well the exam and your unit 4 sacs go. You will not get a 40 plus?
Like,since one GA is below an A plus, no matter wheat you do you can't get above a 40 as your unit 3 sacs are just too low.

I got a B+ for unit 3 bio and got raw 40+.

I felt the same as you, like the dream was over. But aim to kill the exam and do as best you can for your remaining SACs and you will get a good score.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Peanut Butter on June 17, 2015, 07:21:58 am
Can someone please explains what happens if two students have the same sac marks: are they considered equal rank one when submitted to VCAA? Or does another factor contribute towards who is considered 'rank one'?

Thanks so much :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Alter on June 17, 2015, 08:57:30 pm
They are both considered equal rank one when submitted to VCAA. A teacher cannot use a non-SAC test or practice exam to alter results and thus change ranks of students in a given cohort.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 19, 2015, 08:52:10 am
 
They are both considered equal rank one when submitted to VCAA. A teacher cannot use a non-SAC test or practice exam to alter results and thus change ranks of students in a given cohort.

Haha in fact they can, it happens all the time. Technically you're not supposed to, but students aren't allowed to 'really' know their rank so they can't complain.

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: SwagG on June 20, 2015, 03:45:41 pm
Hey Hamo,

Brilliant post about SAC rankings. I have a question though.

Lets say at MHS, we have a methods cohort of ~300. If hypothetically I am ranked average or a bit above average (~90-110) in the SACs we have done so far, if i manage to push my SAC ranking upwards, reaching ~60-70 by the end of the year, is it possible to get a 45+, considering I do really well in the exam. Or is the rank to low to achieve such a score?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 20, 2015, 04:12:53 pm
Hey Hamo,

Brilliant post about SAC rankings. I have a question though.

Lets say at MHS, we have a methods cohort of ~300. If hypothetically I am ranked average or a bit above average (~90-110) in the SACs we have done so far, if i manage to push my SAC ranking upwards, reaching ~60-70 by the end of the year, is it possible to get a 45+, considering I do really well in the exam. Or is the rank to low to achieve such a score?

Thanks :)

MHS is arguably the 'best' school to do methods in VIC given how well the SACs scale.
From what I know, the top 20-25 get a scaled 100/100, and top 50 get a scaled score of 95+
If you're able to hit 60-70 with an ace exam, then yes you'd be able to get scores in the realms of 48/49, maybe even 50.

All the best!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Glasses on June 23, 2015, 02:55:21 pm
Hi Hamo,

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inish on June 23, 2015, 03:05:43 pm
I remember when I did VCE, some teachers and a few students were looking into how SACs compare with exams in terms of influence on study score.

I don't think that SACs actually matter too much and your exam performance is the by far the biggest influence on your study score. There's a lot of ways to rig numbers to make them say what you want them to say.

For example, say that you have 50% SACs and 50% exam but the SAC mark median was 97/100 and the exam median was 80/100.

Say you have 5 good students, after SACs, the ranking of these is:

Student 1  -Best
Student 2
Student 3
Student 4
Student 5 -Worst

Now exam performance is reversed.

Student 5: 90/100
Student 4: 85/100
..
Student 1: 70/100

Student 1 ends up with 100% for SACS + 70/100
Student 5 ends up with 95% for SACS + 90/100

Thus, student 5 smashes student 1.

From memory, something similar to this was happening, essentially everyone smashed the SACs after they were adjusted, exams then spread everyone out.

Similar to the Tour de France if you're not great at maths, on the flat stages, there's basically no difference between the first and tenth rider, so you could win all the flat stages and not be very much ahead. In the mountains though, the difference between the first and tenth could be 20 minutes, huge.

Moral of the story is, focus on the exams, they are far more important.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 23, 2015, 05:00:39 pm
I remember when I did VCE, some teachers and a few students were looking into how SACs compare with exams in terms of influence on study score.

I don't think that SACs actually matter too much and your exam performance is the by far the biggest influence on your study score. There's a lot of ways to rig numbers to make them say what you want them to say.

For example, say that you have 50% SACs and 50% exam but the SAC mark median was 97/100 and the exam median was 80/100.

Say you have 5 good students, after SACs, the ranking of these is:

Student 1  -Best
Student 2
Student 3
Student 4
Student 5 -Worst

Now exam performance is reversed.

Student 5: 90/100
Student 4: 85/100
..
Student 1: 70/100

Student 1 ends up with 100% for SACS + 70/100
Student 5 ends up with 95% for SACS + 90/100

Thus, student 5 smashes student 1.

From memory, something similar to this was happening, essentially everyone smashed the SACs after they were adjusted, exams then spread everyone out.

Similar to the Tour de France if you're not great at maths, on the flat stages, there's basically no difference between the first and tenth rider, so you could win all the flat stages and not be very much ahead. In the mountains though, the difference between the first and tenth could be 20 minutes, huge.

Moral of the story is, focus on the exams, they are far more important.

I strongly beg to differ.

Exams are important, sure, but so are SACs, especially in languages where they are weighted 50/50.

I've experienced this first hand, where 1 rank (so 1 spot difference in terms of rankings) meant a study score difference of 2-3. I've also experienced a case where 7 ranks meant a study score difference of 8 (the exact same exam score resulted in discrepancy from 47 to 38, a delightful, extraordinary score to a respectable one). It was very feasible for me to get a study score 2-3 higher than what I would've for my language if I was a rank higher. Sure, there were specific circumstances that made it happen, but to think that exams are 'far more important' is significantly misleading. The only scenarios where it's applicable is probably Mathematics oriented subjects where the weighting is 33/67, and even then after a certain ranking you miss out on the chance of receiving a 49/50 even if you full mark the exam.

I believe that you genuinely think you're right and that's fine, we were all naive in this VCE road once, just felt that it's necessary to correct you :)

Tl;dr do not listen to inish above
exams are important but so are SACs
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: strawberries on June 23, 2015, 05:59:10 pm
I strongly beg to differ.

Exams are important, sure, but so are SACs, especially in languages where they are weighted 50/50.

I've experienced this first hand, where 1 rank (so 1 spot difference in terms of rankings) meant a study score difference of 2-3. I've also experienced a case where 7 ranks meant a study score difference of 8 (the exact same exam score resulted in discrepancy from 47 to 38, a delightful, extraordinary score to a respectable one). It was very feasible for me to get a study score 2-3 higher than what I would've for my language if I was a rank higher. Sure, there were specific circumstances that made it happen, but to think that exams are 'far more important' is significantly misleading. The only scenarios where it's applicable is probably Mathematics oriented subjects where the weighting is 33/67, and even then after a certain ranking you miss out on the chance of receiving a 49/50 even if you full mark the exam.

I believe that you genuinely think you're right and that's fine, we were all naive in this VCE road once, just felt that it's necessary to correct you :)

Tl;dr do not listen to inish above
exams are important but so are SACs
Omg :o

does this mean if you're not rank 1 in LOTE and your cohort isn't that strong you're screwed? :'(
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: iNT on June 23, 2015, 06:16:27 pm
I strongly beg to differ.

Exams are important, sure, but so are SACs, especially in languages where they are weighted 50/50.

I've experienced this first hand, where 1 rank (so 1 spot difference in terms of rankings) meant a study score difference of 2-3. I've also experienced a case where 7 ranks meant a study score difference of 8 (the exact same exam score resulted in discrepancy from 47 to 38, a delightful, extraordinary score to a respectable one). It was very feasible for me to get a study score 2-3 higher than what I would've for my language if I was a rank higher. Sure, there were specific circumstances that made it happen, but to think that exams are 'far more important' is significantly misleading. The only scenarios where it's applicable is probably Mathematics oriented subjects where the weighting is 33/67, and even then after a certain ranking you miss out on the chance of receiving a 49/50 even if you full mark the exam.

I believe that you genuinely think you're right and that's fine, we were all naive in this VCE road once, just felt that it's necessary to correct you :)

Tl;dr do not listen to inish above
exams are important but so are SACs

Noob question...what do u mean by 'weighting of 33/67'?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: IndefatigableLover on June 23, 2015, 06:29:10 pm
Noob question...what do u mean by 'weighting of 33/67'?
33.3% SACs and 66.7% Exam weighting for Maths (which is split to 22% and 44% essentially for Exam 1&2).
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: iNT on June 23, 2015, 07:02:29 pm
33.3% SACs and 66.7% Exam weighting for Maths (which is split to 22% and 44% essentially for Exam 1&2).

thanks man
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inish on June 23, 2015, 09:47:13 pm
I strongly beg to differ.

Exams are important, sure, but so are SACs, especially in languages where they are weighted 50/50.

I've experienced this first hand, where 1 rank (so 1 spot difference in terms of rankings) meant a study score difference of 2-3. I've also experienced a case where 7 ranks meant a study score difference of 8 (the exact same exam score resulted in discrepancy from 47 to 38, a delightful, extraordinary score to a respectable one). It was very feasible for me to get a study score 2-3 higher than what I would've for my language if I was a rank higher. Sure, there were specific circumstances that made it happen, but to think that exams are 'far more important' is significantly misleading. The only scenarios where it's applicable is probably Mathematics oriented subjects where the weighting is 33/67, and even then after a certain ranking you miss out on the chance of receiving a 49/50 even if you full mark the exam.

I believe that you genuinely think you're right and that's fine, we were all naive in this VCE road once, just felt that it's necessary to correct you :)

Tl;dr do not listen to inish above
exams are important but so are SACs

Here is the graded distribution for maths methods:

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/statistics/2013/section3/vce_mathematical_methods_cas_ga13.pdf

Let's analyse the high achievers:

The top 15% of students in SACS were awarded scores between 89-100.

The top 15% of students in Exam 1 were awarded scores between 60-80.

The top 15% of students in Exam 2 were awarded scores between 100-160.

As you can see, the difference between the best student in the state and the 'top 15%ile' student in the state is, after SACS is 11. The difference for Exam 2 was 60 marks. There is a much larger deviation, and thus, who wins Exam 2 wins everything.

 Seriously guys, you are wasting your time worrying about SACS, do your best in them but spend your time worrying about the exam, that's what VCAA creates to spread the students properly.

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inish on June 23, 2015, 09:50:53 pm
Same deal in languages, check it out here:

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/statistics/2013/section3/vce_lote_german_ga13.pdf

The difference between the best student and the 15%ile student for SACS is just 3 marks out of 50. This is almost nothing. The difference between the best student and the 15%ile student in exam is 90 marks out of 400.

Who wins the exam, gets the cake.

If you're maths literate, the standard deviation for the SACS for Unit 3 was 6.8, the standard deviation for the exam was 62.

This makes sense, it's better to measure students all by the same centrally organised exam.

On an anecdotal level, this holds for me personally. I wasn't the highest rank for methods, mostly because I lost marks for notation bla bla and this bla bla. I felt I was still the strongest at maths, did well on the exam and got the highest study score in my cohort.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 23, 2015, 10:10:00 pm
Inish dear, let's not cherry pick. And for the record, I agree with Maths, it's indeed possible for you to get a high range score simply from acing the exam. But this isn't what i'm disagreeing with. It's your generalist claims that I find a bit annoying.

But even if you didn't, let's look at your case in German.

3 marks out of 50 --> 24 marks out of 400. They're weighted the same, remember?
You also seem to be under the misconception that 310/400 is 90 marks from first. Let me enlighten you here, with languages that have essays, it is impossible for you to get 400/400 or full marks. The examiners will always deduct marks from even the top range essays, it's inevitable. But i'll just file that under lack of experience with languages and that's perfectly fine as that.

Most subjects are weighted out of 75-100 mark exams, so really, after expecting to lose 3-4 marks at the very least, the max will only be around 380/400. 24 marks out of a 70 mark gap from the exam means huge influences by SAC grades.

If you end up with a scaled SAC score of 0 and an exam score of 100, you'll end up with a weighted average of 50 which is less than a raw 30, theoretically. Obviously this scenario is not very plausible but we'll keep it here for comedic value.

Note that you cherry picked German. For a language like Chinese Second Language, the difference between the 1st student and someone near the 80th percentile is around 45-50 marks/400.
The difference SAC wise is 3 marks/50 = 24 marks/400.
If every SAC mark could affect 8 marks/400 on the exam, that would have a substantial weighting on your end score, given 8 marks/400 is the difference between a 45 and a 50.
There goes your theory of 'who wins the exam, gets the cake'.

And before you go implying that i'm not maths literate, check your calculations first :)
Note:Nothing personal, i just felt a bit riled at your veiled accusation.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inish on June 23, 2015, 10:35:29 pm
Inish dear, let's not cherry pick. And for the record, I agree with Maths, it's indeed possible for you to get a high range score simply from acing the exam. But this isn't what i'm disagreeing with. It's your generalist claims that I find a bit annoying.

But even if you didn't, let's look at your case in German.

3 marks out of 50 --> 24 marks out of 400. They're weighted the same, remember?
You also seem to be under the misconception that 310/400 is 90 marks from first. Let me enlighten you here, with languages that have essays, it is impossible for you to get 400/400 or full marks. The examiners will always deduct marks from even the top range essays, it's inevitable. But i'll just file that under lack of experience with languages and that's perfectly fine as that.

Most subjects are weighted out of 75-100 mark exams, so really, after expecting to lose 3-4 marks at the very least, the max will only be around 380/400. 24 marks out of a 70 mark gap from the exam means huge influences by SAC grades.

If you end up with a scaled SAC score of 0 and an exam score of 100, you'll end up with a weighted average of 50 which is less than a raw 30, theoretically. Obviously this scenario is not very plausible but we'll keep it here for comedic value.

Note that you cherry picked German. For a language like Chinese Second Language, the difference between the 1st student and someone near the 80th percentile is around 45-50 marks/400.
The difference SAC wise is 3 marks/50 = 24 marks/400.
If every SAC mark could affect 8 marks/400 on the exam, that would have a substantial weighting on your end score, given 8 marks/400 is the difference between a 45 and a 50.
There goes your theory of 'who wins the exam, gets the cake'.

And before you go implying that i'm not maths literate, check your calculations first :)
Note:Nothing personal, i just felt a bit riled at your veiled accusation.

I didn't cherry-pick German, you go to Scotch and most Scotchies do German afaik so I looked up German. What I said is consistent for Italian and French, as well.

CSL is obviously going to be skewed, I would guess that most of the high-achievers in that subject were proficient at Chinese before entering the subject. A quick google search showing the names of the high-achievers will probably confirm this.

I did not make a 'veiled accusation'.

We've each made our points.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Glasses on June 23, 2015, 10:54:16 pm
I hope you guys don't mind me interrupting, but could someone please answer my question:

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!!  :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inish on June 23, 2015, 10:57:11 pm
I hope you guys don't mind me interrupting, but could someone please answer my question:

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!!  :)

One for each.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 23, 2015, 11:01:42 pm
I didn't cherry-pick German, you go to Scotch and most Scotchies do German afaik so I looked up German. What I said is consistent for Italian and French, as well.
I did not make a 'veiled accusation'.

'if you're maths literate' implies that i'm not

fyi more people do Chinese than German and even for German the results show that a SAC mark difference means a study score or more.

We've each made our points.

Yes, and i'd normally respect that except you're propagating the false sense of security that 'great exam solves everything'. It doesn't.

I hope you guys don't mind me interrupting, but could someone please answer my question:

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!!  :)

Units are separate :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: inish on June 23, 2015, 11:43:51 pm
'if you're maths literate' implies that i'm not

fyi more people do Chinese than German and even for German the results show that a SAC mark difference means a study score or more.

Yes, and i'd normally respect that except you're propagating the false sense of security that 'great exam solves everything'. It doesn't.

Units are separate :)

I'm sorry you took it on board like that. I literally meant, 'If you know what standard deviations are, here they are. If you don't know, then disregard.' I didn't know what standard deviations were in year 11.

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Mershian on June 24, 2015, 07:30:36 pm
Hey guys, sorry if this has been asked before or if this question is suited for another board.

Anyway... in a Methods cohort of roughly 50 students at probably a top 10 school in the state, where should I be aiming for in terms of SAC marks (and ranking if that matters) to place me in a reasonable position to achieve a raw score of 35-40?

Currently I'm sitting on 39/60 with two SACs left worth 20 marks each, and am worried that I may be slipping to far behind (max SAC marks is therefore 79).

So is it possible for someone to give me a rough estimate for what I should be aiming for in terms of marks or ranking, or do I need to provide more info OR is it not possible.

Thanks
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: grannysmith on June 25, 2015, 09:44:45 pm
How true is this statement?

"the intervals between students on the moderated assessment scale reflect the intervals between them on the raw School-assessed Coursework scale" and "the highest achievement, the upper quartile, the median and the lower quartile. These scores are used as fixed points for aligning the two scales"

From:SAC SCALING EXPLANATION
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on June 26, 2015, 10:27:37 am
How true is this statement?

"the intervals between students on the moderated assessment scale reflect the intervals between them on the raw School-assessed Coursework scale" and "the highest achievement, the upper quartile, the median and the lower quartile. These scores are used as fixed points for aligning the two scales"

From:SAC SCALING EXPLANATION

I'd say 95% true. I think I read in a brochure about how that's used and it's probably correct. Of course, I could be wrong.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: thaaanyan on July 02, 2015, 06:43:18 pm
Hi there!
I'd really appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me, cos im not sure i got this from hamo's explanation. are there any situations in which a rank 3/4/5 can out perform a rank 1 with their study score at the end???? like if the rank 1  and 2 are doing very well in sacs and then screw up in the end, is it possible for 3/4/5 to be ok?? thanks guys!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on July 02, 2015, 08:15:04 pm
Hi there!
I'd really appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me, cos im not sure i got this from hamo's explanation. are there any situations in which a rank 3/4/5 can out perform a rank 1 with their study score at the end???? like if the rank 1  and 2 are doing very well in sacs and then screw up in the end, is it possible for 3/4/5 to be ok?? thanks guys!

Rank 1 bombs out on Exam and gets 68/100
Rank 2 bombs out on Exam and gets 62/100

Rank 3 (you) aces the Exam and gets 100/100
Assuming 4&5 get something like 80/100

End score: 50/50 weighting

Rank 1: 68+100= 168/200
R2: 62+80=142/200
R3: 100 + 80=180/200

As you can see, you outperform both of them :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: iNT on July 02, 2015, 09:34:01 pm
Rank 1 bombs out on Exam and gets 68/100
Rank 2 bombs out on Exam and gets 62/100

Rank 3 (you) aces the Exam and gets 100/100
Assuming 4&5 get something like 80/100

End score: 50/50 weighting

Rank 1: 68+100= 168/200
R2: 62+80=142/200
R3: 100 + 80=180/200

As you can see, you outperform both of them :)

wouldnt the sacs though be moderated down for everyone because rank 1 and 2 performed badly? im still a bit confused  :-\
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: grannysmith on July 02, 2015, 09:35:12 pm
wouldnt the sacs though be moderated down for everyone because rank 1 and 2 performed badly? im still a bit confused  :-\
Yeah, but not for rank 1. They'd get 100 for SACs.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: iNT on July 02, 2015, 09:44:09 pm
Yeah, but not for rank 1. They'd get 100 for SACs.

So this is what happens -

SACS -

Rank 1 = 100%
Rank 2 = 95%
Rank 3 = 90%

Exams -

Rank 1 = 60%
Rank 2= 55%
Rank 3 = 95%

its goes the end result to=

rank 1 = 160/200
rank 2 = 150/200
rank 3 =  185/200

say the weighting is 50/50

but the sacs go down for 2 and 3

so rank 1 = 160/200
rank 2 = 140/200
rank 3 = 170/200

is that what happens?  :o
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: thaaanyan on July 02, 2015, 10:15:36 pm
Rank 1 bombs out on Exam and gets 68/100
Rank 2 bombs out on Exam and gets 62/100

Rank 3 (you) aces the Exam and gets 100/100
Assuming 4&5 get something like 80/100

End score: 50/50 weighting

Rank 1: 68+100= 168/200
R2: 62+80=142/200
R3: 100 + 80=180/200

As you can see, you outperform both of them :)


Ah thank you! I just thought that sac marks for two/three/rest of cohort would be moderated down, so rank 1's mark would be the highest still; but i think iNT also clarified this. Thank you very much guys, I appreciate it! :) :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: grannysmith on July 02, 2015, 10:23:22 pm
So this is what happens -

SACS -

Rank 1 = 100%
Rank 2 = 95%
Rank 3 = 90%

Exams -

Rank 1 = 60%
Rank 2= 55%
Rank 3 = 95%

its goes the end result to=

rank 1 = 160/200
rank 2 = 150/200
rank 3 =  185/200

say the weighting is 50/50

but the sacs go down for 2 and 3

so rank 1 = 160/200
rank 2 = 140/200
rank 3 = 170/200

is that what happens?  :o
Yep, that's the idea. However, rank 2 and 3 might get a lower or higher moderated SAC mark. Also note that when stating exam percentages, we're really only interested in the weighted percentage and not the raw % itself. That's because getting, say, 60/120 in an exam could put you in the 90%ile of students if the exam was extremely difficult.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on July 03, 2015, 08:17:33 pm
Yep, that's the idea. However, rank 2 and 3 might get a lower or higher moderated SAC mark. Also note that when stating exam percentages, we're really only interested in the weighted percentage and not the raw % itself. That's because getting, say, 60/120 in an exam could put you in the 90%ile of students if the exam was extremely difficult.

Moderation is a bit of an 'iffy' issue from past experience (statements of marks). Below is a largely true story with grades just modified for the sake of preserving identity.

A student (let's call him Bob) did very badly for his exam and got a C for his exam. He was rank 5 in a high ranking cohort for German which should've meant that he gets an A/A+ from his SAC performance. He performed equivalent to the guys that were rank 30-ish.
What happened, though, was that the other students picked up the slack so his rank 5 SAC score scaled to 50/50 for both Units 3 and 4, and his SAC scores should've been moderated, but didn't happen.
His exam score was a meagre 270/400 in comparison.
Ended up with a high 30s study score even though the exam was equivalent to a very low 30s score.

Technically speaking, moderation should occur, but if not many students perform badly they probably won't.

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: odeaa on July 13, 2015, 06:59:52 pm
What happens if too many people ace the exam? I was just looking at a physics assessors report where 25 people got full marks (not sure exactly but I don't think there are 25 50's for physics), and I assume they would all be rank 1. It was when they had mid year exams, so they would just make the end of years harder I guess, but theoretically what would happen now if they made an exam a bit too easy?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on July 13, 2015, 08:32:41 pm
What happens if too many people ace the exam? I was just looking at a physics assessors report where 25 people got full marks (not sure exactly but I don't think there are 25 50's for physics), and I assume they would all be rank 1. It was when they had mid year exams, so they would just make the end of years harder I guess, but theoretically what would happen now if they made an exam a bit too easy?

If all full-marked and were rank 1, they all get 50

Less people would get 49s and 48s to balance it out.

Afaik it hasn't happened for a major subject yet
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Glasses on July 13, 2015, 09:19:57 pm
Hamo, is it possible for someone to still obtain a 40+ study score if they are rank 2/10 for unit 3 [GA 1 80/100] (in a fairly average cohort), and if they do well in Unit 4 and well in the exam (like 85%+)? - I know that technically, anything can happen, but truthfully, what is the likelihood of this happening?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Zealous on July 13, 2015, 10:55:23 pm
Hamo, is it possible for someone to still obtain a 40+ study score if they are rank 2/10 for unit 3 [GA 1 80/100] (in a fairly average cohort), and if they do well in Unit 4 and well in the exam (like 85%+)? - I know that technically, anything can happen, but truthfully, what is the likelihood of this happening?

Yep definitely. The exams are worth at least 50% so if you have a fairly high SAC score you're all set for a 40+. You'd be surprised at how good SAC scaling is so don't freak too much about the 80/100. I wasn't even rank 1 in English Language but my SACs scaled to A+ somehow despite not getting an A+ in the exam... ???
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: dankfrank420 on July 14, 2015, 06:20:46 pm
Hamo, is it possible for someone to still obtain a 40+ study score if they are rank 2/10 for unit 3 [GA 1 80/100] (in a fairly average cohort), and if they do well in Unit 4 and well in the exam (like 85%+)? - I know that technically, anything can happen, but truthfully, what is the likelihood of this happening?

Yeah, happened with me last year.

Completely f*cked unit 3 and still managed to get a 42.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Glasses on July 14, 2015, 08:50:11 pm
Yeah, happened with me last year.

Completely f*cked unit 3 and still managed to get a 42.

Can I ask what your average and ranking was for unit 3? And what subject was and how strong was your cohort?

Thanks!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: dankfrank420 on July 14, 2015, 09:50:56 pm
Can I ask what your average and ranking was for unit 3? And what subject was and how strong was your cohort?

Thanks!

Unit 3 average 80, above average cohort. Top end was really strong but it fell away after that. Was probably ranked 25-30 out of 75. I got scaled 89 (which is barely an A in bio, 1 mark above a B+).

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: cosine on July 22, 2015, 05:10:45 pm
If you're second rank by just a small percentage, like 1%, does this make a difference in exam results, or even matter at all?

Cheers xD
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on July 22, 2015, 05:44:51 pm
If you're second rank by just a small percentage, like 1%, does this make a difference in exam results, or even matter at all?

Cheers xD

If there's a huge discrepancy in end of year exam scores between 1 and 2, then yes. If they are the same or really similar exam scores, no.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: ^_^ikr on July 28, 2015, 08:19:07 pm
OMG... i didn't no SAC's r dat important... T^T i totally fluke the writing piece in the Chinese sac ( guessing gonna loose 3-4marks) could've done so much better. Just another question. Im in yr 9 right now and I'm doing Unit2. if i'm gonna do unit 2 ( I WANNA REDO THE SAC) do they accept my mark???
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: nummypumpum on July 31, 2015, 07:27:22 pm
ahh, i may be a little confused here, just hypothetically lets say your ranked 5th in the cohort would it be possible to achieve a 40+, given rank 1 dominates the exam but the others don't do as well and you perform better than them? 
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on July 31, 2015, 07:36:33 pm
ahh, i may be a little confused here, just hypothetically lets say your ranked 5th in the cohort would it be possible to achieve a 40+, given rank 1 dominates the exam but the others don't do as well and you perform better than them?

Yeah 40+ is achievable with basically any sort of above average ranking with a superb exam score.

Bad sac rankings can only deprive you of the higher range scores like 48-50, where everyone does well on the exam and often your sac marks may make a difference.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: nummypumpum on August 05, 2015, 09:01:09 am
Yeah 40+ is achievable with basically any sort of above average ranking with a superb exam score.

Bad sac rankings can only deprive you of the higher range scores like 48-50, where everyone does well on the exam and often your sac marks may make a difference.

Thanks for your reply, so for example if someone is ranked last and get full marked on the exam (by some miracle) they could get a 45? Sorry for the quetions
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: jammin on August 05, 2015, 10:05:48 am
Thanks for your reply, so for example if someone is ranked last and get full marked on the exam (by some miracle) they could get a 45? Sorry for the quetions

No I don't think so. If someone is ranked last and gets like 12/33 for Sacs but 67/67 for exam they'd get 79/100 for overall which is like a 35-40.

Does anyone know someone who's performed badly like low A+/high A but still managed to ace English?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: appleandbee on August 05, 2015, 10:24:15 am
No I don't think so. If someone is ranked last and gets like 12/33 for Sacs but 67/67 for exam they'd get 79/100 for overall which is like a 35-40.

Does anyone know someone who's performed badly like low A+/high A but still managed to ace English?

I'm presuming you mean low A+/high A is SACs. My teacher (at macrob) had a student that got 61/100 for unit 3 and 94/100 for unit 4 and got a high A+ (56/60) in the exam and got a 46. She got a low grade for unit 3 because she cheated on one of the SACs.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: heids on August 05, 2015, 10:25:43 am
No I don't think so. If someone is ranked last and gets like 12/33 for Sacs but 67/67 for exam they'd get 79/100 for overall which is like a 35-40.

Does anyone know someone who's performed badly like low A+/high A but still managed to ace English?
Low A+/high A = performing badly? :-\ :-[ :'(
And define 'ace'.
(e.g. I was tipping the low A+/high A all through my SACs, didn't ace English but got a solid enough mark).
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: _fruitcake_ on August 05, 2015, 10:34:14 am
No I don't think so. If someone is ranked last and gets like 12/33 for Sacs but 67/67 for exam they'd get 79/100 for overall which is like a 35-40.

Does anyone know someone who's performed badly like low A+/high A but still managed to ace English?

Some kid at a private school had C+ for his very first sac and ended up with 48 SS for english
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: jammin on August 05, 2015, 12:12:49 pm
Low A+/high A = performing badly? :-\ :-[ :'(
And define 'ace'.
(e.g. I was tipping the low A+/high A all through my SACs, didn't ace English but got a solid enough mark).

ace as in 49/50
anything lower doesn't quite count in this instance :/

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: jammin on August 05, 2015, 12:13:53 pm
I'm presuming you mean low A+/high A is SACs. My teacher (at macrob) had a student that got 61/100 for unit 3 and 94/100 for unit 4 and got a high A+ (56/60) in the exam and got a 46. She got a low grade for unit 3 because she cheated on one of the SACs.

what grade was that end score would you happen to know?

thanks so much
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: appleandbee on August 05, 2015, 02:08:56 pm
what grade was that end score would you happen to know?

thanks so much

Her unit 3 grade ended up being 87/100 and her unit 4 grade was 98/100. If she did better in unit 3 (like at least high 80s/low 90s) she could have probably pulled off a 48 because I know quite a few people who got 48 with the exam score and low-mid 90s SAC grades at top-tier English cohorts like MGS, MHS, Macrob, St Kevins. A couple of years back, a guy that was ranked one in MGS got a 50 with 56/60 in the exam. So yeah 49/50s are possible with low 90s provided you get like 58+ (maybe 57)/60 in the exam. If it's low 80s however, 50 is probably not possible and the highest you can probably get is 48-49.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: smithsmith on August 09, 2015, 09:27:58 pm
Hi,
What happens if for unit 3 you were rank 1 and then in unit 4 you're rank is around 5 after a bad sac. Is the ranking given to vcaa per unit or at the end of the year? I just want to know how badly that one sac ruined me haha.
Thanks
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on August 09, 2015, 10:10:18 pm
Hi,
What happens if for unit 3 you were rank 1 and then in unit 4 you're rank is around 5 after a bad sac. Is the ranking given to vcaa per unit or at the end of the year? I just want to know how badly that one sac ruined me haha.
Thanks

Per unit. Not much.
You'll be fine :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: _fruitcake_ on August 09, 2015, 10:26:09 pm
Per unit. Not much.
You'll be fine :)

i was rank 2nd in unit 3.. now i got top mark on first unit 4 sac.. if i maintain first for unit 4.. do my teachers send unit 3 mark with rank 2 and unit 4 mark with rank 1?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on August 10, 2015, 03:10:32 pm
i was rank 2nd in unit 3.. now i got top mark on first unit 4 sac.. if i maintain first for unit 4.. do my teachers send unit 3 mark with rank 2 and unit 4 mark with rank 1?

Yes.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: gunsforhands on August 10, 2015, 09:29:20 pm
Hello, wow this was really helpful, thank you so much!

One question: okay, so just say you're ranked number one in a very weak cohort, but you are number one by a looong way (like, you're full marking all sacs but everyone else is barely passing). if that number one messes up the exam, what would happen then?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on August 10, 2015, 09:52:13 pm
Hello, wow this was really helpful, thank you so much!

One question: okay, so just say you're ranked number one in a very weak cohort, but you are number one by a looong way (like, you're full marking all sacs but everyone else is barely passing). if that number one messes up the exam, what would happen then?

Same thing as if they were number one with 1 mark separating them.

And no worries, glad to help
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Redoxify on August 11, 2015, 05:41:48 pm
sorry If this question is answered
what if you're ranked ~ 7/13 in a weak cohort, and smash the exam, where as the people higher in ranks do worse?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on August 11, 2015, 06:06:52 pm
sorry If this question is answered
what if you're ranked ~ 7/13 in a weak cohort, and smash the exam, where as the people higher in ranks do worse?

Your SACs cop it, and so you cop it too. If they do terribly, you're looking at a S.S drop of 2 to 8, based on how badly and what your aims are.

If you're ranked 7/13, control what you can control, and hope for the best.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: drmockingbird on September 10, 2015, 07:13:56 pm
Hey Hamo,

So let's say you're rank 1 in a language (in my case French) in an average cohort - given that it's nearly impossible to score 100% on the exam for language subjects, my SAC marks (around 93%) won't ever "scale" up to 100? If so, has the teacher reduced our chances of getting a higher study score by not giving out full marks on any SACs?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on September 10, 2015, 07:31:56 pm
Hey Hamo,

So let's say you're rank 1 in a language (in my case French) in an average cohort - given that it's nearly impossible to score 100% on the exam for language subjects, my SAC marks (around 93%) won't ever "scale" up to 100? If so, has the teacher reduced our chances of getting a higher study score by not giving out full marks on any SACs?

Yeah, I feel your pain (languages are screwed in general).
But with SAC scaling, if you (hypothetically) place 1st in the state in your subject, then your SACs will scale to 100 (because 100/100 is on a comparative basis).

Your teacher isn't the one to blame though, because even if he/she hands out 100s incredibly frequently, your SACs will just scale from 100 down to like 90 or 95, and it probably looks worse on your statement of marks (personal preference only but i like seeing the numbers go up rather than go down!) :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: _fruitcake_ on September 10, 2015, 07:32:08 pm
Hey Hamo,

So let's say you're rank 1 in a language (in my case French) in an average cohort - given that it's nearly impossible to score 100% on the exam for language subjects, my SAC marks (around 93%) won't ever "scale" up to 100? If so, has the teacher reduced our chances of getting a higher study score by not giving out full marks on any SACs?

Its not about getting 100%, its about beating everyone else
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: n.a on September 13, 2015, 12:48:04 pm
If I get full marks on both the exams, what would my study score be?

Thanks!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: _fruitcake_ on September 13, 2015, 06:34:36 pm
    Hi,

    So I was just wondering if someone could help me out here. I've tried the SS Estimator, but I want a second (or third or fourth) opinion. For my SACs, I got:
    • 91%
    • 69% (REALLY bad day)
    • 89%
    • Predicted 100% (because it's matrices)
If I get full marks on both the exams, what would my study score be?

Thanks!

Even if you get 38/40, and 56/60, you would probably still get around 45.
Full marks = 48-50

Remember that exam is king, its 66% of your study score :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: n.a on September 14, 2015, 06:55:15 pm
Even if you get 38/40, and 56/60, you would probably still get around 45.
Full marks = 48-50

Remember that exam is king, its 66% of your study score :)

Thank you so much! That is exactly the kind of motivation I was looking for, especially now when we're all drained and want to give up! Thank you again, and good luck with your studies! :D
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: _fruitcake_ on September 14, 2015, 07:00:35 pm
Thank you so much! That is exactly the kind of motivation I was looking for, especially now when we're all drained and want to give up! Thank you again, and good luck with your studies! :D

Yeah mate, it's been a hard year, just trying to pull myself through till exams :) Good luck to you too.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: euphoric on September 17, 2015, 09:01:50 pm
I'm currently ranked 3 in one of my subjects, sitting on an A+ for unit 4, however if I I get an A+ in the exam, and I out perform rank 1 and 2 (if they get an A), is there any chance I could get a 45+ ? And a higher study score than them? or will my unit 4 sac scores scale down to an A as the third highest will correspond to an A?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: bowtiescarves on September 21, 2015, 11:33:51 pm
Hey can someone please answer this,

If I am rank 2 in further, with a sac mark of 97/100 (rank 1 has 98/100), assuming I full mark the exams (and assuming rank 1 also does), do I have a chance at a 50 study score?

I ask because I know in a subject like further, those top study scores are very very competitive and it's generally the methods/spesh people (I do all 3), so I was wondering if you think I'm still able to get a 50, considering both rank 1 and myself are very strong further students and could possibly ace the exams. (and I'm assuming rank 1 will also get a 50)

thanks so much
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: jammin on September 22, 2015, 11:39:06 am
Hey can someone please answer this,

If I am rank 2 in further, with a sac mark of 97/100 (rank 1 has 98/100), assuming I full mark the exams (and assuming rank 1 also does), do I have a chance at a 50 study score?

I ask because I know in a subject like further, those top study scores are very very competitive and it's generally the methods/spesh people (I do all 3), so I was wondering if you think I'm still able to get a 50, considering both rank 1 and myself are very strong further students and could possibly ace the exams. (and I'm assuming rank 1 will also get a 50)

thanks so much

From what I know if rank 1 gets a 50 your exam result virtually dictates your study score
It's only if they fuck up and get a 35 or something when you get affected
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on September 23, 2015, 01:39:52 pm
I'm currently ranked 3 in one of my subjects, sitting on an A+ for unit 4, however if I I get an A+ in the exam, and I out perform rank 1 and 2 (if they get an A), is there any chance I could get a 45+ ? And a higher study score than them? or will my unit 4 sac scores scale down to an A as the third highest will correspond to an A?

Yeah, providing they don't screw up badly
And it's a maths/science subject, not a language

3rd highest corresponding to an A is subjective, it really depends on your cohort this year
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Peanut Butter on September 30, 2015, 12:47:06 pm
Sorry if this has been asked!!

I'm not entirely sure if I'm rank one, possibly rank 2 or 3 (out of about 50). If I get full marks for both further exams is it still possible to get a 50? Or is that impossible if you're not rank one?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Kindergarten on September 30, 2015, 11:36:01 pm
Sorry if this has been asked!!

I'm not entirely sure if I'm rank one, possibly rank 2 or 3 (out of about 50). If I get full marks for both further exams is it still possible to get a 50? Or is that impossible if you're not rank one?

Yes! or else how would multiple people from the one cohort get 50?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Mc47 on October 11, 2015, 10:57:10 pm
Your ranking doesn't really matter if the people above you are actually better than you right?

e.g. I'm ranked 3rd in physics, and will likely get the 3rd best exam score, so others won't really impact me?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: StupidProdigy on October 11, 2015, 11:07:18 pm
Hey hamo (or anyone else who wants to answer!). I got told what my sac rank was for a subject. Turns out it was rank 1 overall, whoever I've managed to not get rank one for either unit 1, just overall...I've lucked out right? Like overall rank doesn't matter as much since the ranks are submitted per unit yeah? Thanks :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on October 11, 2015, 11:19:30 pm
Hey hamo (or anyone else who wants to answer!). I got told what my sac rank was for a subject. Turns out it was rank 1 overall, whoever I've managed to not get rank one for either unit 1, just overall...I've lucked out right? Like overall rank doesn't matter as much since the ranks are submitted per unit yeah? Thanks :)
That's very unfortunate, at least this shows that you have been the most consistent performer and should take that confidence into the exam.

Just curious are you talking about further (as per your signature) because then it's overall rank which counts.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: StupidProdigy on October 12, 2015, 06:50:40 pm
That's very unfortunate, at least this shows that you have been the most consistent performer and should take that confidence into the exam.

Just curious are you talking about further (as per your signature) because then it's overall rank which counts.
Mmm thanks for the sympathy haha..and no it's not for further (my sig is just to confuse people..). Thanks for the insight though about confidence for the exam  :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: ashwin1999 on February 17, 2016, 07:49:16 pm
I know this is kind of unrelated to this topic, but If I missed a chemistry sac not due to being ill and getting a zero for it, can I still get at least a 30 study score in it? if I get 60-70 percent on my other Sacs for chem, can it affect my overall atar in anyway considering that it wont be in my top 4? If one sac or part of it is missed does it mean I get a not satisfactory for the unit or just zero for the sac?

Cheers,
Ashwin
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on February 17, 2016, 08:32:02 pm
I know this is kind of unrelated to this topic, but If I missed a chemistry sac not due to being ill and getting a zero for it, can I still get at least a 30 study score in it? if I get 60-70 percent on my other Sacs for chem, can it affect my overall atar in anyway considering that it wont be in my top 4? If one sac or part of it is missed does it mean I get a not satisfactory for the unit or just zero for the sac?

Cheers,
Ashwin

Just 0 for the SAC. Check with your teacher as to whether you can still get a S for the unit.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: appleandbee on February 17, 2016, 09:22:07 pm
I know this is kind of unrelated to this topic, but If I missed a chemistry sac not due to being ill and getting a zero for it, can I still get at least a 30 study score in it? if I get 60-70 percent on my other Sacs for chem, can it affect my overall atar in anyway considering that it wont be in my top 4? If one sac or part of it is missed does it mean I get a not satisfactory for the unit or just zero for the sac?

Cheers,
Ashwin

As Hamo94 said, check with your teacher. In such cases, most schools/teachers will probably make you do a supplementary assessment in order to attain an S for the unit (won't change your SAC grade though). The majority of teachers don't want students to be denied a study score, get an N  on their certificate or kicked out of the subject. Assuming you get an S for the unit, a 30+ study score is attainable. I know a few people that got 40+ study scores (someone even got a 46 in English with a 80-93% on all her other SACs) that got 0 for a SAC (they didn't turn up to it lol, my school has good SAC moderation for most subjects though).
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: ashwin1999 on February 17, 2016, 11:56:08 pm
Thanks, I am not sure yet but it was an extended experimental investigation held over a couple of lessons, I attended two lessons before this.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: janex on March 06, 2017, 09:39:35 am
 hi Hamo,thanks for all your detailed info. This is hypothetical but based on fact!  If I'm ranked 2 in a cohort of 40 [psych] where we have sac marks of 97 and 96 respectively. In exam say I get 92 but rank 1 student gets only 84, (and assuming no one else in the cohort will even get close) does my SAC get moderated down to 84?
Thanks 8)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on March 06, 2017, 10:24:56 am
hi Hamo,thanks for all your detailed info. This is hypothetical but based on fact!  If I'm ranked 2 in a cohort of 40 [psych] where we have sac marks of 97 and 96 respectively. In exam say I get 92 but rank 1 student gets only 84, (and assuming no one else in the cohort will even get close) does my SAC get moderated down to 84?
Thanks 8)

Yes probably
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: janex on March 06, 2017, 11:52:20 am
ooh, that is harsh!!  ???
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Hasiibaa__ on March 20, 2017, 07:28:05 pm
Is there any way to scale up in the rankings? For example I'm 3rd ranking in a subject is there any way for me to get to rank 1?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Joseph41 on March 27, 2017, 09:36:35 am
Is there any way to scale up in the rankings? For example I'm 3rd ranking in a subject is there any way for me to get to rank 1?

Hey, Hasiibaa. :) Welcome to ATAR Notes! ;D

Are you asking how to overtake rank 1 and rank 2? If that's the case, it's all based on marks - so you'll need to catch up on the mark differential, and then overtake them. Does that answer your question?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: A1P on June 10, 2017, 08:42:43 pm
This is hypothetical but based on fact!  If I'm ranked 2 in a cohort of 40 [psych] where we have sac marks of 97 and 96 respectively. In exam say I get 92 but rank 1 student gets only 84, (and assuming no one else in the cohort will even get close) does my SAC get moderated down to 84?

I just saw this question and the reply "Yes probably" needs commenting on.

The rule-of-thumb formula is your post-exam SAC = your pre-exam SAC x (cohort's exam average / cohort's pre-exam SAC average)
Described in words your SAC is moderated to reflect the whole cohort's exam performance.

Only in a rare case where everyone in your cohort (except you) drops 13 marks like rank #1, then your SAC gets moderated down by a similar amount to around 84.

If rank #1's big drop is only him/her and the rest all drop 4 marks like your 96 to 92, your SAC would only drop ~5 marks to around 91. IOW it depends on the whole cohort (thus cohort's exam average) not just one person.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: miguel_1 on June 20, 2017, 08:39:09 pm
Hey,

So my cohort as a whole is fairly weak with an advanced year 11 methods class and the year 12 class. The year 12 class is getting D's and E's while the year 11 class is getting B's and A's. Rank one has a sac average of 80%. If that person does incredibly well on the exams with 2 A+'s is there a chance of them receiving a 40+ without getting incredibly good marks on sacs. No one in the previous year got a 40+ study score so it seems sort of impossible... I also want to know if the low results produced by the year 12's can affect those achieving higher. Just wanted to hear your thoughts. :)

Thanks

Pretty sure if rank 1 aces the exam, their sacs get scaled up and they get a 50 study score. Correct me if I'm wrong
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Bri MT on June 25, 2017, 11:08:39 am
Rank 1's SAC scores  are scaled to be whatever the highest exam mark is. My SAC scores throughout the year for bio weren't A+s but they got scaled due to exam performance. Less than 1% of last years scores at my school were 40+, but the performance of others doesn't have to dictate your results. Keep working hard and practice for both of the exams extensively :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Tay23 on June 30, 2017, 09:59:47 pm
Pretty sure if rank 1 aces the exam, their sacs get scaled up and they get a 50 study score. Correct me if I'm wrong
Thanks for your reply miguel_1.

Rank 1's SAC scores  are scaled to be whatever the highest exam mark is. My SAC scores throughout the year for bio weren't A+s but they got scaled due to exam performance. Less than 1% of last years scores at my school were 40+, but the performance of others doesn't have to dictate your results. Keep working hard and practice for both of the exams extensively :)
Thanks for sharing your previous experience miniturtle definetely brings me some hope!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Muhtadi on July 07, 2017, 03:59:21 am
A question
For my subject, unit 3 is worth 10% and unit 4 is worth 40% with the exam making up the remaining 50%. I was rank 4 for unit 3, but lets say I got 100% for everything in unit 4 and ace the exam. Let's also say that I made it to rank 2. Is there still a chance of getting a 50?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on July 07, 2017, 04:09:32 am
A question
For my subject, unit 3 is worth 10% and unit 4 is worth 40% with the exam making up the remaining 50%. I was rank 4 for unit 3, but lets say I got 100% for everything in unit 4 and ace the exam. Let's also say that I made it to rank 2. Is there still a chance of getting a 50?
yes there is a "chance" but rankings are for each semester so rank 4 may hurt you depending on the strength of your cohort. Even though it is "only" 10% it's a lot when you are aiming for the very high end.

Just try your best and whatever happens will happen!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Atlantis on October 26, 2017, 04:53:06 pm
So in all my subjects I'm ranked among the top 3

If I do well in the exam (at least an A) will I be able to achieve a 35 SS despite not being rank 1 in a pretty weak cohort?

Also, what would happen if rank 1 bombed the exam in a weak cohort? Will my SS scale down as a result?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: PhoenixxFire on October 26, 2017, 08:19:49 pm
So in all my subjects I'm ranked among the top 3

If I do well in the exam (at least an A) will I be able to achieve a 35 SS despite not being rank 1 in a pretty weak cohort?

Also, what would happen if rank 1 bombed the exam in a weak cohort? Will my SS scale down as a result?

Absolutely! I barely tried in psych (my cohort was weak as well) I think I may have been around rank 5/6 (?) and I got a 37 with barely any revision for the exam (I don't remember what grade I got). Whilst you have a weak cohort, if the people ranked above you are doing well (or if you are close to them) it should be even easier. If you study hard between now and your exams you can definitly get over 35.

If rank 1 bombs the exam I believe what happens is they get their exam score and the highest exam score as their SAC mark (it's more complicated than this). So if you're rank 3 you will get your exam score and the 3rd highest exam score as your scaled SAC mark.

This may affect you a little as the 3rd exam score may be lower than what it would be if rank 1 hadn't bombed. It will certainly not be enough to stop you getting 35 if you do well on the exam though.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: ButMoortyyy on October 26, 2017, 10:59:02 pm
sorry i just need some clarification. Hypothetically if im rank 30 in my cohort, does that mean my sac will be scaled according to the 30th best exam mark/grade?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on October 26, 2017, 11:17:50 pm
sorry i just need some clarification. Hypothetically if im rank 30 in my cohort, does that mean my sac will be scaled according to the 30th best exam mark/grade?
yes that is correct :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Mattjbr2 on November 03, 2017, 08:12:28 pm
Despite reading every post here, I'm still really confused because there's some conflicting information.
What's the bottom line for this situation?: 80% SACs (rank 1 in cohort) + 100% exams = ? Some people here are saying 100% (100/100. i.e. 50 SS), others are saying 90% (180/200. i.e. much, much less than 50 SS, probably a 35-40). ???

In the first post:
"your SAC marks (so whether you got 190 or 195/200) doesn't mean anything at the end, it's just submitted for the purpose of submitting it (rankings are what matters), VCAA looks at your exam grades."
"f you full mark your Exam as Rank 1, you will get a 50, no doubt." i assume they mean despite <100% rank 1 SAC scores

While further down that post there's this:
"Full marking the exam doesn't mean much if your SACs are screwed" Huh? Do you mean if your SAC rank is screwed or if your SAC marks are screwed despite rank 1? I thought your SAC marks scale up to equal your exam marks? So even if you get 10% rank 1 for SACs and 100% for the exams, your 10% rank 1 should scale up to 100% and give you a 50 study score, right?

So what would I get for Further Math? I got 91% (rank 1) for all SACs and 37/40 (92.5%) for exam 1. If I full mark exam 2, would that mean that my SACs scale up to 100% or 96.25% (average of both exams) or  92.5% (exam 1 score) or will they stay at 91%? (I'm definitely rank 1 in my cohort for the exams as well.) I.e. what will be my GA1 score? 100%, 96.25%, 92.5% or 91%?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Bri MT on November 06, 2017, 03:35:10 pm
Despite reading every post here, I'm still really confused because there's some conflicting information.
What's the bottom line for this situation?: 80% SACs (rank 1 in cohort) + 100% exams = ? Some people here are saying 100% (100/100. i.e. 50 SS), others are saying 90% (180/200. i.e. much, much less than 50 SS, probably a 35-40). ???

In the first post:
"your SAC marks (so whether you got 190 or 195/200) doesn't mean anything at the end, it's just submitted for the purpose of submitting it (rankings are what matters), VCAA looks at your exam grades."
"f you full mark your Exam as Rank 1, you will get a 50, no doubt." i assume they mean despite <100% rank 1 SAC scores

While further down that post there's this:
"Full marking the exam doesn't mean much if your SACs are screwed" Huh? Do you mean if your SAC rank is screwed or if your SAC marks are screwed despite rank 1? I thought your SAC marks scale up to equal your exam marks? So even if you get 10% rank 1 for SACs and 100% for the exams, your 10% rank 1 should scale up to 100% and give you a 50 study score, right?

So what would I get for Further Math? I got 91% (rank 1) for all SACs and 37/40 (92.5%) for exam 1. If I full mark exam 2, would that mean that my SACs scale up to 100% or 96.25% (average of both exams) or  92.5% (exam 1 score) or will they stay at 91%? (I'm definitely rank 1 in my cohort for the exams as well.) I.e. what will be my GA1 score? 100%, 96.25%, 92.5% or 91%?

Screwing up ranking in the SACs is what could reduce your score, not the SAC marks  (otherwise all schools would make their SACs very easy).
Your GA1 would be based on the highest exams scores in your cohort.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: theONEandONLY1 on November 06, 2017, 07:23:40 pm
Hey guys,
Can someone explain what happens in different scenarios when two individuals are ranked on the same position (specifically rank 1). ie what happens if one individual gets lower than the other, does the other person get brought down? etc.
Thank you
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Orb on November 06, 2017, 07:26:47 pm
Hey guys,
Can someone explain what happens in different scenarios when two individuals are ranked on the same position (specifically rank 1). ie what happens if one individual gets lower than the other, does the other person get brought down? etc.
Thank you

To my knowledge your teachers probably split you up before submitting the rankings anyway.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: theONEandONLY1 on November 06, 2017, 07:36:45 pm
But what happens if they are the same (they did not)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: alisonzz on November 06, 2017, 09:48:58 pm
Just wondering, do you get two separate Sac ranks for Units 3 and 4 in Further Mathematics?

And do you get an 'overall' SAC ranking between them and is this process automatic or do teachers actually have to work this out themselves. Thanks so much!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Rosalyn on November 11, 2017, 03:30:13 pm
What happens if the student ranked equal second in my class in HHD dosesn't sit the exam?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Onyx on November 11, 2017, 04:27:00 pm
What happens if the student ranked equal
second in my class in HHD dosesn't sit the exam?

I think they are considered as an outlier as they get a UG or derived score or w.e. Won’t effect your pretty sure. You can check it out on vcaa’s statistical moderation page.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: atar.notes.user on November 11, 2017, 05:06:30 pm
how much can rankiing affect ur SS?
also, if u get the highest exam mark in ur cohort, does that account to anything? like in related to ur SS
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Tadd12345 on August 10, 2018, 10:05:54 am
Hey guys honest question. Does rank 1 have to score a good exam mark for the whole cohort to be moderated favourably, or can anyone score that SAC mark? I am rank 2 in both my subjects in an extremely weak cohort. I know that rank 1 won't perform well in the exam due to him claiming he won't even sit it. I do know that people ranked below me might do well.
Two questions;
1- Is the Sac mark moderated according to how well rank 1 scores on the exam, or the whole class collectively?
2- How stuffed am I, if i am rank 2 in a cohort of 30 people where only a few get study scores above 37? I will do alot of practice exams and i reckon I can do considerably well in the end of year VCAA exams
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: lemonlemonlemon on August 10, 2018, 10:33:25 am
Hey guys honest question. Does rank 1 have to score a good exam mark for the whole cohort to be moderated favourably, or can anyone score that SAC mark? I am rank 2 in both my subjects in an extremely weak cohort. I know that rank 1 won't perform well in the exam due to him claiming he won't even sit it. I do know that people ranked below me might do well.
Two questions;
1- Is the Sac mark moderated according to how well rank 1 scores on the exam, or the whole class collectively?
2- How stuffed am I, if i am rank 2 in a cohort of 30 people where only a few get study scores above 37? I will do alot of practice exams and i reckon I can do considerably well in the end of year VCAA exams
1. Whole class collectively (Since SAC moderation is based on you rank (X) and X highest exam score)
2. Definitely not stuffed however if the rank 1 person neglect to sit the exams, it may affect your score.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Aswathy Ottur on August 27, 2018, 06:27:15 pm
Hello,
What if I performed above average on my first methods SAC, but got a 75 in the second SAC, though the class average was 76, Do I still have the chance of getting a 40+ for my study score.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: lemonlemonlemon on August 28, 2018, 09:47:16 am
Hello,
What if I performed above average on my first methods SAC, but got a 75 in the second SAC, though the class average was 76, Do I still have the chance of getting a 40+ for my study score.
Using your cohort as a mean of measure is unreliable if cohort strength is not yet defined (since ss is a state ranking, not cohort).

Therefore, I would recommend at least to take a look how much people in your subject get 40+ study score at your school. It should get you an idea how high you need to be ranked.

But in the end, my best advice is just to give it your all, worrying about ranking imo is waste of time as it cannot be changed but instead: working on your next sac and improve it.

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Joseph41 on August 28, 2018, 09:53:12 am
Hello,
What if I performed above average on my first methods SAC, but got a 75 in the second SAC, though the class average was 76, Do I still have the chance of getting a 40+ for my study score.

Welcome to ATAR Notes. :)

As above, there isn't really enough information here to make an informed prediction. I know it's hard, but honestly, I'd try to focus as much as possible on the stuff you can control. You'll be fine. 👊
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: smamsmo22 on September 08, 2018, 11:38:41 pm
This is probably a dumb question but I'm struggling to get my head around it. My understanding from this thread is that rank 1 ends up with the higher exam mark, and hence the highest study score, right?
I was rank 1 in my cohort last year, and didn't do so well on the exam. I ended up getting the 2nd highest study score. But doesn't that go against the whole rank 1 obtains the highest exam mark thing?? If anyone could explain it to me that'd be great, it was a while ago now so I'm not bothered by the result, just the fact that I can't explain it !!!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Herman on September 08, 2018, 11:41:27 pm
Do your SACS in year 11 effect your study scores in year 12?

Im in year 9 ;D

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: technodisney on September 08, 2018, 11:41:57 pm
This is probably a dumb question but I'm struggling to get my head around it. My understanding from this thread is that rank 1 ends up with the higher exam mark, and hence the highest study score, right?
I was rank 1 in my cohort last year, and didn't do so well on the exam. I ended up getting the 2nd highest study score. But doesn't that go against the whole rank 1 obtains the highest exam mark thing?? If anyone could explain it to me that'd be great, it was a while ago now so I'm not bothered by the result, just the fact that I can't explain it !!!

I will try and explain it as simply as possible

Rank 1 will achieve the highest exam mark as their SAC mark.

Everyone keeps their exam scores regardless of rank.

If you are rank 1 AND you get the highest exam mark in your cohort you will get the highest study score in your cohort.

Does that clear it up?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on September 08, 2018, 11:43:27 pm
This is probably a dumb question but I'm struggling to get my head around it. My understanding from this thread is that rank 1 ends up with the higher exam mark, and hence the highest study score, right?
I was rank 1 in my cohort last year, and didn't do so well on the exam. I ended up getting the 2nd highest study score. But doesn't that go against the whole rank 1 obtains the highest exam mark thing?? If anyone could explain it to me that'd be great, it was a while ago now so I'm not bothered by the result, just the fact that I can't explain it !!!
nah you are just interpreting it incorrectly (although a common misinterpretation)

As rank 1 you would have go the highest SAC scores (which are standerdised to the highest exam score in your cohort). Your exam score is what you did in the exam and nothing is changed from that.


Do your SACS in year 11 effect your study scores in year 12?

Im in year 9 ;D


No nothing but your year 12  (units 3/4) sac scores are counted towards your study score.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Herman on September 08, 2018, 11:49:30 pm
Haha yess i do.
That competition... HAHA
But becoming rank 1 can also have its own mistakes. Such as if your teacher is assessing your work more strictly than your peers

Is that where the GAT examination comes into place as well.
Its because teachers can be bias and also be unnecessarily strict aswell with your SATs.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: S200 on September 08, 2018, 11:55:38 pm
Chill about the GAT.
You only need it if something really bad happens in your exams (like a friend dying)...
Trust me on this... :'(
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Lear on September 09, 2018, 08:01:36 am

Chill about the GAT.
You only need it if something really bad happens in your exams (like a friend dying)...
Trust me on this... :'(

The GAT is also used for other things such as comparing schools, scaling and triggering re checks of your exams.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Vaegord on September 09, 2018, 09:22:41 pm
As VCE is a normal distribution with a mean of 30 and standard deviation of 7. If the class size is too small(small sample size) will VCAA care about SAC ?marks?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Bri MT on September 10, 2018, 12:12:35 pm
As VCE is a normal distribution with a mean of 30 and standard deviation of 7. If the class size is too small(small sample size) will VCAA care about SAC ?marks?

Yeah, SACs still count. Sometimes ultra-small cohorts get combined together (eg. if you go to a rural school and only have one classmate your cohort could be your class + the class of another school).

Eg. there were only 5 of us in my physics class but our SACs still mattered.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Arthurmorgan on January 30, 2019, 05:53:50 pm
Uhh, I'm currently crapping myself.

Our further maths teacher walked in today on the first day and gave us a test out of the blue.... No opportunity to ask any questions, just a test.
He said it's going to our ranks but also made us mark it ourselves so I am really confused, I scored 38/45, was aiming for a 40+ but don't know if that is possible anymore?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Lear on January 30, 2019, 05:55:28 pm
That’s unacceptable behaviour by your teacher. This is not how you run assessments. I’d be reporting that to my school ASAP.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Jimmmy on January 30, 2019, 06:00:24 pm
Uhh, I'm currently crapping myself.

Our further maths teacher walked in today on the first day and gave us a test out of the blue.... No opportunity to ask any questions, just a test.
He said it's going to our ranks but also made us mark it ourselves so I am really confused, I scored 38/45, was aiming for a 40+ but don't know if that is possible anymore?
That's almost the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If that's true, the teacher should really go under some sort of investigation.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Arthurmorgan on January 30, 2019, 06:04:32 pm
That's almost the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If that's true, the teacher should really go under some sort of investigation.

At first I was under the belief that he was joking, but then he continued to say it during the test and also reaffirmed it when I asked at the end.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Lear on January 30, 2019, 06:06:31 pm
I am pretty sure schools have to give at least 2 weeks notice prior to any assessments that will count towards a student’s VCE.
I can’t quite find where in the VCAA guidelines it says this (nor have I looked too deeply) but am sure there is something like that.
Perhaps someone like @Aaron can provide some insight.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Arthurmorgan on January 30, 2019, 06:37:04 pm
I am pretty sure schools have to give at least 2 weeks notice prior to any assessments that will count towards a student’s VCE.
I can’t quite find where in the VCAA guidelines it says this (nor have I looked too deeply) but am sure there is something like that.
Perhaps someone like @Aaron can provide some insight.
I honestly hope so, Further Maths was literally the first thing I did during the holidays and had basically forgotten most of the content, had to recall how to do everything during the test.

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Lear on January 30, 2019, 07:00:20 pm
I honestly hope so, Further Maths was literally the first thing I did during the holidays and had basically forgotten most of the content, had to recall how to do everything during the test.



You can email VCAA  directly and see if they can provide you some information.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Aaron on January 30, 2019, 07:59:50 pm
Quote from: Lear
Perhaps someone like @Aaron can provide some insight.
Perks of Tapatalk, instant notification when a mention/quote is made.

Anyway - the standard is usually a week's notice at the absolute minimum.

Realistically as long as all students in the class/cohort have been given the same opportunities to access/complete the work - the timing actually isn't the most important consideration. As long as the school meets VCAA deadlines, that in combination with equal access are the key considerations for SACs/internal assessment. I would direct concerns to your school VCE coordinator / sub school leader as timing of notifications, internal redemption processes and anything of this nature is usually set by policy at the school level.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Arthurmorgan on January 30, 2019, 09:07:39 pm
Perks of Tapatalk, instant notification when a mention/quote is made.

Anyway - the standard is usually a week's notice at the absolute minimum.

Realistically as long as all students in the class/cohort have been given the same opportunities to access/complete the work - the timing actually isn't the most important consideration. As long as the school meets VCAA deadlines, that in combination with equal access are the key considerations for SACs/internal assessment. I would direct concerns to your school VCE coordinator / sub school leader as timing of notifications, internal redemption processes and anything of this nature is usually set by policy at the school level.

How does this work if there are multiple classes doing Further? My class was the first class to have it today (four classes) and by now everyone has had ample time to revise for it. Surely it can't be fair? I also found it ridiculous that we marked it ourselves where it is open to manipulation.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Aaron on January 30, 2019, 09:19:03 pm
There is also a chance your teacher was just saying that as a joke or trying to encourage you to switch on... if it's not a formal SAC that is consistent across all further classes where you're given notice etc, then it cannot count towards rankings etc. It could very well have just been a misinterpretation on your part.

In terms of multiple classes like part of your post asks, SACs need to be the exact same (unless an alternative assessment e.g. redemption task) and have to be delivered within a reasonable time of each other (a few days at most). It is near impossible to hold them at the same time due to timetabling constraints without requesting students to complete it outside of class time (e.g after school) - which imo contributes to inequity if anything due to the vast array of commitments students have outside of school hrs.

I also think that given you were allowed to mark it yourself, this definitely isn't contributing to your ranking. Your teacher & school would not risk that.

Seek clarity and like I said, speak to a coordinator (VCE/subschool) to really understand what's going on here. Unfortunately I have no further context to go off so my responses are general on purpose. People on AN aren't going to be able to provide you with the response you need as they aren't part of your school and I would definitely encourage you to speak to your school.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: SAR0016 on February 12, 2019, 05:10:06 pm
Hypothetically speaking if I were to be averaging 80% in my sacs for Accounting and i am ranked 1 for both units in my cohort, is it possible to obtain 50 ss given that I ace exam.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on February 12, 2019, 05:13:47 pm
Hypothetically speaking if I were to be averaging 80% in my sacs for Accounting and i am ranked 1 for both units in my cohort, is it possible to obtain 50 ss given that I ace exam.

Thanks in advance
Yes, as the post suggests ranking is what matters not your raw sac scores.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Tadd12345 on February 12, 2019, 05:15:57 pm
Hypothetically speaking if I were to be averaging 80% in my sacs for Accounting and i am ranked 1 for both units in my cohort, is it possible to obtain 50 ss given that I ace exam.

Thanks in advance
Yes.
Remember, your sac averages do not matter. Only your ranking does.
If you're rank 1, then nothing will stop you from getting 50 given you ace the exam
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Ansaki on April 02, 2019, 06:19:52 pm
Hey wonderful people on AtarNotes!
so i think i went like decent, not to bad on my first two English sacs (that were unit 3 outcome 1, analysing a selected text and creative piece), i wanted to know if i could get like a high ranking if i do well on my next 3 sacs throughout the year, can i still get a 35+ (or 40ish dream come true), i go to a school which has like a 25 or 27 average study score even if i dont rank 1 can i still achieve these scores?
thanks!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: cookielife on April 02, 2019, 06:29:32 pm
For subjects like biology, is GA 1- U3 SACS, Ga 2- U4 SACS and GA3- end of year exam?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on April 02, 2019, 07:36:41 pm
For subjects like biology, is GA 1- U3 SACS, Ga 2- U4 SACS and GA3- end of year exam?
Yes

just remember that the sacs are AFTER moderation by VCAA
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: aspiringantelope on April 07, 2019, 02:24:46 pm
Hey wonderful people on AtarNotes!
so i think i went like decent, not to bad on my first two English sacs (that were unit 3 outcome 1, analysing a selected text and creative piece), i wanted to know if i could get like a high ranking if i do well on my next 3 sacs throughout the year, can i still get a 35+ (or 40ish dream come true), i go to a school which has like a 25 or 27 average study score even if i dont rank 1 can i still achieve these scores?
thanks!
I mean your cohort average study score plays a pretty important role in your eventual study score. It would be ideal to be rank 1 because you would get the highest scaled Unit 3/4 SAC scores in the end. However, it would not really affect you if there is a small group of high-performing students that also perform well on the end-of-year exam. So yes, it is still possible to achieve a study score of more than 35+ even if you are not rank 1 and do not go to a high-performing school. Just note that if your cohort doesn't perform that good on the end-of-year exam, your SAC scores will scale down depending on their scores. But not your individual performance. [Correct me if I'm wrong sorry]
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Chocolatemilkshake on April 28, 2019, 09:28:26 am
We had a topic test in bio that wasn't considered a SAC, however, our teacher said it would still contribute towards rankings.

I'm a bit confused, isn't it solely SACs that determine our SAC ranking?

Thanks for your help everyone!
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Ribozyme on April 28, 2019, 01:54:34 pm
We had a topic test in bio that wasn't considered a SAC, however, our teacher said it would still contribute towards rankings.

I'm a bit confused, isn't it solely SACs that determine our SAC ranking?

Thanks for your help everyone!

Yeah so SACs are the only thing that should really contribute to your SAC rankings. However, your teacher may be using this topic test to seperate students if they are on the same ranking/score.

Hope that helps :)

Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Ansaki on June 16, 2019, 06:49:29 pm
so lets say that someone doesnt do too well in unit 3 for a subject like specialist maths or maths methods but does fairly well in their next 2 sacs (speaking that our school does 3 sacs for the whole year) and ends up with rank 1, if they ace the exam can they still manage a 45+? and what if majority of your sacs lie in unit 4 and you ace them can u still end up with rank 1?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: undefined on June 17, 2019, 04:20:29 pm
so lets say that someone doesnt do too well in unit 3 for a subject like specialist maths or maths methods but does fairly well in their next 2 sacs (speaking that our school does 3 sacs for the whole year) and ends up with rank 1, if they ace the exam can they still manage a 45+? and what if majority of your sacs lie in unit 4 and you ace them can u still end up with rank 1?
Depends on your final rank after the 3 sacs but generally if you get rank 1 in 2/3 of the sacs and your final rank is say 5 if the people above you are all expecting high 40s there's no reason why you shouldn't too if not a 50. The way the system works is if you are rank 5, the 5th best exam score in your cohort is converted into sac scores and is what you are given for your GA1 (sacs) so if the 5th best exam score in your cohort is very high and you get a very high exam score as well you can expect to get a very high study score. If you get a low rank, however, it gets harder since you need to do better in the exam than if you had a higher rank in order to get the same study score. This might be a bit confusing so tell me if you need more clarification.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Ansaki on June 20, 2019, 06:39:30 pm
Depends on your final rank after the 3 sacs but generally if you get rank 1 in 2/3 of the sacs and your final rank is say 5 if the people above you are all expecting high 40s there's no reason why you shouldn't too if not a 50. The way the system works is if you are rank 5, the 5th best exam score in your cohort is converted into sac scores and is what you are given for your GA1 (sacs) so if the 5th best exam score in your cohort is very high and you get a very high exam score as well you can expect to get a very high study score. If you get a low rank, however, it gets harder since you need to do better in the exam than if you had a higher rank in order to get the same study score. This might be a bit confusing so tell me if you need more clarification.

i guess after the teacher told us our ranks today (ONLY the top 3 ranks and i wasnt in the top 3) i got really concerned, my main question was that can i still get rank 1 if i get rank 1 on my next 2 sacs for both methods and specialist. And i did reasonably well on my first chem sac (i got an A) and on my second i completely flunked it, i passed but it wasnt a good grade. For both i didnt get rank 1, if i get rank 1 for the next 3 sacs will that make me rank 1? does the system even work that way, or is it that you have to catch up on the marks that u are behind from the rank 1?
and do ranks get reset in unit 4? how does that work?
thanks for your help undefined.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: whys on September 09, 2019, 11:48:02 am
Hello. I have a competitive cohort for psychology, and I'm not sure where I'm ranked. Probably in the top ten, I know that from scores I've heard floating around, but I'm unsure about where exactly I am. So far, my average for all of my sacs is 94% (scaled average), but we still have one more to go. Even if I'm not rank 1, will this still matter in terms of my study score? As in, do I still stand a fair chance at a high 40s study score even though I'm not in the top 3 (Well, technically I could be, because I don't know my ranking, but I doubt it)? I know rankings matter, but in the grand scheme of things will it really matter if my average sac percentage gets moderated by VCAA to around a 97~99%? (depends on the score I get on my last sac)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on September 09, 2019, 12:28:37 pm
Hello. I have a competitive cohort for psychology, and I'm not sure where I'm ranked. Probably in the top ten, I know that from scores I've heard floating around, but I'm unsure about where exactly I am. So far, my average for all of my sacs is 94% (scaled average), but we still have one more to go. Even if I'm not rank 1, will this still matter in terms of my study score? As in, do I still stand a fair chance at a high 40s study score even though I'm not in the top 3 (Well, technically I could be, because I don't know my ranking, but I doubt it)? I know rankings matter, but in the grand scheme of things will it really matter if my average sac percentage gets moderated by VCAA to around a 97~99%? (depends on the score I get on my last sac)
If your sacs get moderated by vcaa to 99 you should be fine for most study scores as long as you do really well on the exam. Problems only start to arise if your cohort doesn't do too well on the exam and your sacs don't get moderated up. That really is the risk of having a lower rank is that you are depending on others to do well on the exam as well as yourself.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: cherryblossoms on October 12, 2019, 04:06:11 pm
Just confirming, if there's 3 or 4 classes for a subject (eg. Biology), you are ranked with everyone in the cohort, not just your own class?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: whys on October 12, 2019, 04:20:03 pm
Just confirming, if there's 3 or 4 classes for a subject (eg. Biology), you are ranked with everyone in the cohort, not just your own class?

Yes, you are ranked with everyone in the cohort, not your own class.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: h0wLze on October 12, 2019, 04:22:11 pm
Hi. If I am doing way better than the average in my cohort, will my SS be scaled down?
Say I was averaging 97% in Further Maths, but my cohort average was 70%, should I be afraid?
I really don't want my SS to be scaled down because of dummies in my year level.
Also, I am rank 1 in my cohort of 96, if that changes anything.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: TigerMum on October 12, 2019, 04:34:12 pm
Hi. If I am doing way better than the average in my cohort, will my SS be scaled down?
Say I was averaging 97% in Further Maths, but my cohort average was 70%, should I be afraid?
I really don't want my SS to be scaled down because of dummies in my year level.
Also, I am rank 1 in my cohort of 96, if that changes anything.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I am under the impression that if you are rank 1 in SACs AND get the highest in your cohort on exams, then your score will not be influenced AT ALL by what anyone in your cohort gets. If others do better than you on exams, then the notional score that you receive for your SACs is determined by how well the top exam scorer in your cohort did on the exam.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on October 12, 2019, 09:51:24 pm
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I am under the impression that if you are rank 1 in SACs AND get the highest in your cohort on exams, then your score will not be influenced AT ALL by what anyone in your cohort gets. If others do better than you on exams, then the notional score that you receive for your SACs is determined by how well the top exam scorer in your cohort did on the exam.
Can confirm that this is absolutely right :)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sherlock.Holmes on October 12, 2019, 11:02:57 pm
im currently rank 1 in further maths
does this mean no one can get a higher study score than me?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on October 12, 2019, 11:15:55 pm
im currently rank 1 in further maths
does this mean no one can get a higher study score than me?
No it just means you will have the highest (or equal highest) sac scores after scaling. People ranked 2+ can still do better if they score higher than you on the exam.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sherlock.Holmes on October 13, 2019, 03:08:37 pm
Why would by SACs be scaled tho?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on October 13, 2019, 04:06:52 pm
Why would by SACs be scaled tho?
This question has already been answered on AN and on this thread in particular. Make sure to read the first post of this thread which goes into detail about SAC scaling.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: cherryblossoms on October 15, 2019, 05:46:25 pm
How do you know what rank you are?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on October 15, 2019, 05:48:24 pm
How do you know what rank you are?
In a small cohort, you can get a rough estimate if students in your class share scores with each other. Otherwise, people may know their rank by asking the teacher. However, the teacher doesn't always disclose ranks.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: tigerclouds on November 03, 2019, 08:12:00 pm
Say GA1 is your units 3 and 4 SACs and you're rank 1. Does that mean that your mark for GA1 will come up as A+ even if technically you've scored lower than that (as in, your SAC average is lower than A+ but you're still rank 1)?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on November 03, 2019, 08:19:38 pm
Say GA1 is your units 3 and 4 SACs and you're rank 1. Does that mean that your mark for GA1 will come up as A+ even if technically you've scored lower than that (as in, your SAC average is lower than A+ but you're still rank 1)?
not necessarily. Your mark and grade for your sacs will just be correlated to the highest score within your cohort.

If that highest score is within the A+ range your sacs should get an A+, if the highest score is in the B+ range you should get a B+ for your GA1
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: tigerclouds on November 03, 2019, 08:26:28 pm
not necessarily. Your mark and grade for your sacs will just be correlated to the highest score within your cohort.

If that highest score is within the A+ range your sacs should get an A+, if the highest score is in the B+ range you should get a B+ for your GA1
Oh ok, so is the SAC mark just the grade of the exam in relation to your rank or is it the average of the two?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: bom_infiz on March 10, 2020, 08:17:20 pm
If I got 85% for my first sac in economics, there is 14 students in our class and I am rank 2, with rank 1 getting 88%, if I am consistent with my sacs 85% or higher for all my sacs and stay rank 2, what are the chances of getting 40+? if I also do alright in exam like 85%+
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: HYANA on May 19, 2021, 10:49:42 pm
I'm curious.
In Chemistry, I have estimated that I'm in the 20th Ranking of my cohert, only 2 SACS have been done.
Will it still be possible to aim for 40+ SS?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: Sine on May 20, 2021, 10:20:46 am
I'm curious.
In Chemistry, I have estimated that I'm in the 20th Ranking of my cohert, only 2 SACS have been done.
Will it still be possible to aim for 40+ SS?
Depends on how strong your cohort is. How well does your school normally do in Chemistry?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: BottledStrawberry on September 03, 2021, 04:24:02 pm
Hello, I just had a question about SAC rankings.

In a subject with two GAs for SACs on the final statement of marks (for example English), are the SAC rankings per semester of for the entire year?
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: ArtyDreams on September 03, 2021, 08:02:15 pm
Hello, I just had a question about SAC rankings.

In a subject with two GAs for SACs on the final statement of marks (for example English), are the SAC rankings per semester of for the entire year?

SAC rankings will be per unit - one for Unit 3 and one for Unit 4.
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: X_P_16 on April 01, 2022, 10:11:13 am
I'm fairly new to this whole rankings thing so i'm a bit confused. Is it the higher the number, the higher the ranking, or the lower the number the lower the rank. (Currently sitting at a rank of 33/79 for VCE Biology)
Title: Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
Post by: AngelWings on April 01, 2022, 11:53:36 am
I'm fairly new to this whole rankings thing so i'm a bit confused. Is it the higher the number, the higher the ranking, or the lower the number the lower the rank. (Currently sitting at a rank of 33/79 for VCE Biology)
Welcome to AN, X_P_16!

Basically, rank #1 = highest score in the cohort. You would want to be Rank #1 (or close to it) to get the highest raw SS possible.