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March 29, 2024, 12:00:13 am

Author Topic: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-  (Read 171112 times)  Share 

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inish

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2015, 09:47:13 pm »
+1
I strongly beg to differ.

Exams are important, sure, but so are SACs, especially in languages where they are weighted 50/50.

I've experienced this first hand, where 1 rank (so 1 spot difference in terms of rankings) meant a study score difference of 2-3. I've also experienced a case where 7 ranks meant a study score difference of 8 (the exact same exam score resulted in discrepancy from 47 to 38, a delightful, extraordinary score to a respectable one). It was very feasible for me to get a study score 2-3 higher than what I would've for my language if I was a rank higher. Sure, there were specific circumstances that made it happen, but to think that exams are 'far more important' is significantly misleading. The only scenarios where it's applicable is probably Mathematics oriented subjects where the weighting is 33/67, and even then after a certain ranking you miss out on the chance of receiving a 49/50 even if you full mark the exam.

I believe that you genuinely think you're right and that's fine, we were all naive in this VCE road once, just felt that it's necessary to correct you :)

Tl;dr do not listen to inish above
exams are important but so are SACs

Here is the graded distribution for maths methods:

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/statistics/2013/section3/vce_mathematical_methods_cas_ga13.pdf

Let's analyse the high achievers:

The top 15% of students in SACS were awarded scores between 89-100.

The top 15% of students in Exam 1 were awarded scores between 60-80.

The top 15% of students in Exam 2 were awarded scores between 100-160.

As you can see, the difference between the best student in the state and the 'top 15%ile' student in the state is, after SACS is 11. The difference for Exam 2 was 60 marks. There is a much larger deviation, and thus, who wins Exam 2 wins everything.

 Seriously guys, you are wasting your time worrying about SACS, do your best in them but spend your time worrying about the exam, that's what VCAA creates to spread the students properly.


inish

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2015, 09:50:53 pm »
+1
Same deal in languages, check it out here:

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/statistics/2013/section3/vce_lote_german_ga13.pdf

The difference between the best student and the 15%ile student for SACS is just 3 marks out of 50. This is almost nothing. The difference between the best student and the 15%ile student in exam is 90 marks out of 400.

Who wins the exam, gets the cake.

If you're maths literate, the standard deviation for the SACS for Unit 3 was 6.8, the standard deviation for the exam was 62.

This makes sense, it's better to measure students all by the same centrally organised exam.

On an anecdotal level, this holds for me personally. I wasn't the highest rank for methods, mostly because I lost marks for notation bla bla and this bla bla. I felt I was still the strongest at maths, did well on the exam and got the highest study score in my cohort.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 09:55:04 pm by inish »

Orb

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2015, 10:10:00 pm »
+1
Inish dear, let's not cherry pick. And for the record, I agree with Maths, it's indeed possible for you to get a high range score simply from acing the exam. But this isn't what i'm disagreeing with. It's your generalist claims that I find a bit annoying.

But even if you didn't, let's look at your case in German.

3 marks out of 50 --> 24 marks out of 400. They're weighted the same, remember?
You also seem to be under the misconception that 310/400 is 90 marks from first. Let me enlighten you here, with languages that have essays, it is impossible for you to get 400/400 or full marks. The examiners will always deduct marks from even the top range essays, it's inevitable. But i'll just file that under lack of experience with languages and that's perfectly fine as that.

Most subjects are weighted out of 75-100 mark exams, so really, after expecting to lose 3-4 marks at the very least, the max will only be around 380/400. 24 marks out of a 70 mark gap from the exam means huge influences by SAC grades.

If you end up with a scaled SAC score of 0 and an exam score of 100, you'll end up with a weighted average of 50 which is less than a raw 30, theoretically. Obviously this scenario is not very plausible but we'll keep it here for comedic value.

Note that you cherry picked German. For a language like Chinese Second Language, the difference between the 1st student and someone near the 80th percentile is around 45-50 marks/400.
The difference SAC wise is 3 marks/50 = 24 marks/400.
If every SAC mark could affect 8 marks/400 on the exam, that would have a substantial weighting on your end score, given 8 marks/400 is the difference between a 45 and a 50.
There goes your theory of 'who wins the exam, gets the cake'.

And before you go implying that i'm not maths literate, check your calculations first :)
Note:Nothing personal, i just felt a bit riled at your veiled accusation.
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inish

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2015, 10:35:29 pm »
0
Inish dear, let's not cherry pick. And for the record, I agree with Maths, it's indeed possible for you to get a high range score simply from acing the exam. But this isn't what i'm disagreeing with. It's your generalist claims that I find a bit annoying.

But even if you didn't, let's look at your case in German.

3 marks out of 50 --> 24 marks out of 400. They're weighted the same, remember?
You also seem to be under the misconception that 310/400 is 90 marks from first. Let me enlighten you here, with languages that have essays, it is impossible for you to get 400/400 or full marks. The examiners will always deduct marks from even the top range essays, it's inevitable. But i'll just file that under lack of experience with languages and that's perfectly fine as that.

Most subjects are weighted out of 75-100 mark exams, so really, after expecting to lose 3-4 marks at the very least, the max will only be around 380/400. 24 marks out of a 70 mark gap from the exam means huge influences by SAC grades.

If you end up with a scaled SAC score of 0 and an exam score of 100, you'll end up with a weighted average of 50 which is less than a raw 30, theoretically. Obviously this scenario is not very plausible but we'll keep it here for comedic value.

Note that you cherry picked German. For a language like Chinese Second Language, the difference between the 1st student and someone near the 80th percentile is around 45-50 marks/400.
The difference SAC wise is 3 marks/50 = 24 marks/400.
If every SAC mark could affect 8 marks/400 on the exam, that would have a substantial weighting on your end score, given 8 marks/400 is the difference between a 45 and a 50.
There goes your theory of 'who wins the exam, gets the cake'.

And before you go implying that i'm not maths literate, check your calculations first :)
Note:Nothing personal, i just felt a bit riled at your veiled accusation.

I didn't cherry-pick German, you go to Scotch and most Scotchies do German afaik so I looked up German. What I said is consistent for Italian and French, as well.

CSL is obviously going to be skewed, I would guess that most of the high-achievers in that subject were proficient at Chinese before entering the subject. A quick google search showing the names of the high-achievers will probably confirm this.

I did not make a 'veiled accusation'.

We've each made our points.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 10:45:54 pm by inish »

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2015, 10:54:16 pm »
0
I hope you guys don't mind me interrupting, but could someone please answer my question:

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!!  :)
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inish

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2015, 10:57:11 pm »
+1
I hope you guys don't mind me interrupting, but could someone please answer my question:

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!!  :)

One for each.

Orb

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2015, 11:01:42 pm »
+1
I didn't cherry-pick German, you go to Scotch and most Scotchies do German afaik so I looked up German. What I said is consistent for Italian and French, as well.
I did not make a 'veiled accusation'.

'if you're maths literate' implies that i'm not

fyi more people do Chinese than German and even for German the results show that a SAC mark difference means a study score or more.

We've each made our points.

Yes, and i'd normally respect that except you're propagating the false sense of security that 'great exam solves everything'. It doesn't.

I hope you guys don't mind me interrupting, but could someone please answer my question:

Does the VCAA use SAC rankings based on each student's performance throughout the whole year, or each unit separately? (Specifically for Psychology)
I.e. - does each student get one ranking for Unit 3 and another for Unit 4, or one based on Unit 3 and 4 combined?

Thanks!!  :)

Units are separate :)
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inish

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2015, 11:43:51 pm »
0
'if you're maths literate' implies that i'm not

fyi more people do Chinese than German and even for German the results show that a SAC mark difference means a study score or more.

Yes, and i'd normally respect that except you're propagating the false sense of security that 'great exam solves everything'. It doesn't.

Units are separate :)

I'm sorry you took it on board like that. I literally meant, 'If you know what standard deviations are, here they are. If you don't know, then disregard.' I didn't know what standard deviations were in year 11.


Mershian

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2015, 07:30:36 pm »
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Hey guys, sorry if this has been asked before or if this question is suited for another board.

Anyway... in a Methods cohort of roughly 50 students at probably a top 10 school in the state, where should I be aiming for in terms of SAC marks (and ranking if that matters) to place me in a reasonable position to achieve a raw score of 35-40?

Currently I'm sitting on 39/60 with two SACs left worth 20 marks each, and am worried that I may be slipping to far behind (max SAC marks is therefore 79).

So is it possible for someone to give me a rough estimate for what I should be aiming for in terms of marks or ranking, or do I need to provide more info OR is it not possible.

Thanks

grannysmith

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2015, 09:44:45 pm »
+1
How true is this statement?

"the intervals between students on the moderated assessment scale reflect the intervals between them on the raw School-assessed Coursework scale" and "the highest achievement, the upper quartile, the median and the lower quartile. These scores are used as fixed points for aligning the two scales"

From:SAC SCALING EXPLANATION

Orb

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2015, 10:27:37 am »
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How true is this statement?

"the intervals between students on the moderated assessment scale reflect the intervals between them on the raw School-assessed Coursework scale" and "the highest achievement, the upper quartile, the median and the lower quartile. These scores are used as fixed points for aligning the two scales"

From:SAC SCALING EXPLANATION

I'd say 95% true. I think I read in a brochure about how that's used and it's probably correct. Of course, I could be wrong.
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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2015, 06:43:18 pm »
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Hi there!
I'd really appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me, cos im not sure i got this from hamo's explanation. are there any situations in which a rank 3/4/5 can out perform a rank 1 with their study score at the end???? like if the rank 1  and 2 are doing very well in sacs and then screw up in the end, is it possible for 3/4/5 to be ok?? thanks guys!

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2015, 08:15:04 pm »
+1
Hi there!
I'd really appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me, cos im not sure i got this from hamo's explanation. are there any situations in which a rank 3/4/5 can out perform a rank 1 with their study score at the end???? like if the rank 1  and 2 are doing very well in sacs and then screw up in the end, is it possible for 3/4/5 to be ok?? thanks guys!

Rank 1 bombs out on Exam and gets 68/100
Rank 2 bombs out on Exam and gets 62/100

Rank 3 (you) aces the Exam and gets 100/100
Assuming 4&5 get something like 80/100

End score: 50/50 weighting

Rank 1: 68+100= 168/200
R2: 62+80=142/200
R3: 100 + 80=180/200

As you can see, you outperform both of them :)
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iNT

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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2015, 09:34:01 pm »
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Rank 1 bombs out on Exam and gets 68/100
Rank 2 bombs out on Exam and gets 62/100

Rank 3 (you) aces the Exam and gets 100/100
Assuming 4&5 get something like 80/100

End score: 50/50 weighting

Rank 1: 68+100= 168/200
R2: 62+80=142/200
R3: 100 + 80=180/200

As you can see, you outperform both of them :)

wouldnt the sacs though be moderated down for everyone because rank 1 and 2 performed badly? im still a bit confused  :-\
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Re: {SAC RANKINGS} -All you need to know about it-
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2015, 09:35:12 pm »
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wouldnt the sacs though be moderated down for everyone because rank 1 and 2 performed badly? im still a bit confused  :-\
Yeah, but not for rank 1. They'd get 100 for SACs.