The alt-left influence on higher education

[jazcstuart]

Really well put. The problem with the "real world" is that it isn't safe, people aren't respectful and we need to cater toward reality. Safe spaces foster intellectual indolency and victimhood. The left loves to believe that it is the victim of the oppressive right, but believing you are a victim is often another way to insinuate that you are too lazy to account for your own shortcomings. Most people cannot face the ideology that they simply are not being discriminated against, they are - instead - simply and merely incapable.

To be honest, as relatively privileged student who is not part of a minority and has never really felt unsafe or discriminated against, I don't feel totally comfortable speaking about the necessity of safe spaces for certain groups or what actually counts as discrimination.
I absolutely agree that the real world isn't like a "safe space", however I would argue that people should still be supported if they feel unsafe or discriminated against, no matter what the reason, or whether they are a child, a student at uni or any other adult. I agree that doesn't mean completely sheltering them from the "real world", however I don't think it's up to me to decide the validity of someones experiences. Personally I don't think you can say "most people" when talking about these sorts of things, as everyones experiences and feelings are different. As I said before, I think it's a super complex issue, I don't really think I know enough about ehat is currently happening and I don't think this is necessarily the right platform for a more in depth discussion, sorry.

[TheBigC]

To be honest, as relatively privileged student who is not part of a minority and has never really felt unsafe or discriminated against, I don't feel totally comfortable speaking about the necessity of safe spaces for certain groups or what actually counts as discrimination.
I absolutely agree that the real world isn't like a "safe space", however I would argue that people should still be supported if they feel unsafe or discriminated against, no matter what the reason, or whether they are a child, a student at uni or any other adult. I agree that doesn't mean completely sheltering them from the "real world", however I don't think it's up to me to decide the validity of someones experiences. Personally I don't think you can say "most people" when talking about these sorts of things, as everyones experiences and feelings are different. As I said before, I think it's a super complex issue, I don't really think I know enough about ehat is currently happening and I don't think this is necessarily the right platform for a more in depth discussion, sorry.

Being part of a minority does not mean you are oppressed. However, I agree that support is necessary, though I also believe that rationale, logic and principles are necessary. So, I would disagree that using the phrase 'most people' is erroneous as many young leftists see themselves as oppressed when in reality they are not. Claiming you are something does not make you that thing. As Ben Shapiro nicely puts it: "facts don't care about your feelings".

[turinturambar]

I spent four years in university fairly conservative, and didn't notice any of these problems. However, that was in engineering, which I'm guessing is less likely to get such things. I think free speech is important and am uncomfortable with the concept of de-platforming. However, giving everyone complete freedom to speak whatever they like does not necessarily grant equal freedom to all. Even if you think people have a right to speak, they do not necessarily have a right to an audience. (whatever views you have on free speech, I recommend the Atlantic article The Two Clashing Meanings of 'Free Speech'.

There's much more I could say, but I think this thread has already gone far and wide.  I think our society is diverse enough that it's difficult to put any part of it into an overwhelmingly "Left" or "Right" box, including politics, education, and news.  I also think it's dangerous to talk too much about what "The Left" or "The Right" think, as the groups are made up of individuals, and there is a lot of variation in opinions among people nominally in the same group (I know from hanging out on various left-leaning forums some who would strongly support these ideas, and some who would strongly object to them, and I'm sure it's the same for people identifying themselves as "centre" or "right-leaning").  And if we're wanting Uni to reflect the real world, the real world can involve advocating for change, not just accepting the world as it is now.

[Lear]

And if we're wanting Uni to reflect the real world, the real world can involve advocating for change, not just accepting the world as it is now.

Wow, very well said.

[EEEEEEP]

So, I would disagree that using the phrase 'most people' is erroneous as many young leftists see themselves as oppressed when in reality they are not. Claiming you are something does not make you that thing. As Ben Shapiro nicely puts it: "facts don't care about your feelings".

Do you have any evidence for that statement of absolutism? Daily USA, the Daily Wire and the Rebel Media do not count.

Let us deal with facts =)

Really well put. The problem with the "real world" is that it isn't safe, people aren't respectful and we need to cater toward reality. Safe spaces foster intellectual indolency and victimhood. The left loves to believe that it is the victim of the oppressive right, but believing you are a victim is often another way to insinuate that you are too lazy to account for your own shortcomings. Most people cannot face the ideology that they simply are not being discriminated against, they are - instead - simply and merely incapable.

The first part of your comment, I cannot comment on (as it can be a mixed bag). But as for your second statement, that seems like a  fallacy of defective induction. Part of that fallacy I would say is producing a hasty generalization, as well as a bizarre hypothesis.

As per your other post, I invite you to back that statement up =)

[TheBigC]

Do you have any evidence for that statement of absolutism? Daily USA, the Daily Wire and the Rebel Media do not count.

Let us deal with facts =)
The first part of your comment, I cannot comment on (as it can be a mixed bag). But as for your second statement, that seems like a  fallacy of defective induction. Part of that fallacy I would say is producing a hasty generalization, as well as a bizarre hypothesis.

As per your other post, I invite you to back that statement up =)

I primarily referred to some general observations of the conduction of left-leaning political activist groups in universities when producing that generalisation. I lack the time to produce a large compilation, though I will provide some statistics relating to the black community:

Initial note: The presupposition is that many African-Americans view themselves as racially discriminated against (https://www.npr.org/assets/img/2017/10/23/discriminationpoll-african-americans.pdf). I would like to note that I am not dubious of the authenticity of racial discrimination, I am not intimating that it doesn't exist, however through my own judgement of politics and statistics, I simply believe all claims are not always to be trusted in the face of unsupporting evidence.

- More than 50% of violent crimes are committed by only 13.4% of the population (https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/ and https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045217)
- African American are incarcerated at rates approx. 5 times greater than the white population. (https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/)

Lucidly, it seems as though the 'oppression' is moreso related to culture in contrast to racial discrimination.

I feel it to be important that I provide a note pertaining to my demeanour. Throughout this discourse, it is quite lucid that my own sentiments are more right-winged than most. I have thought about these issues fairly deeply and spent much time introspecting on the weakness of different arguments. Now, given this - I aim to ensure that any statistics, comments and slight nuances that I perpetuate are highly intentional and specific. I use my words very carefully, though with assertion. It is imperative that you all understand that I do not want to offend anyone. I am not a provocateur, however I know that my perspective, especially in an academic setting such as this is an opinion of the minority. Young conservative-ish people like myself are a fairly rare find and I accept this.

In relation to my more opinionated declarations (i.e. gender dysmorphia and oppression), these are very, very contentious (and most will disagree - which is great! I prefer to not hear others agree... it could not produce a more boring and cynical outlook upon a given issue), though this does not make me a transphobe, racist, or a general bigot. I am very liberal when it comes to issues such as gay marriage, female rights and equality of opportunity (not outcome, though) and solely aim to judge individuals predicated upon the competence with which they bring to society, not their race, ethnicity, sexual identity or orientation.

Thanks for the great debate guys. I look forward to disagreeing (jokes!) in the future (hehe!)...

Mod edit: merged double post. Please use the modify post button in future. --Calebark

[turinturambar]

- More than 50% of violent crimes are committed by only 13.4% of the population (https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/ and https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045217)
- African American are incarcerated at rates approx. 5 times greater than the white population. (https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/)

Lucidly, it seems as though the 'oppression' is moreso related to culture in contrast to racial discrimination.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.  Particularly with that incarceration example, the NAACP fact sheet you point to seems to me to suggest that this difference is not due to a higher offence rate by African Americans and Hispanics, but due to a higher incarceration rate. If different racial groups are being treated differently for the same crime, how does that support the idea of it being culture rather than race?

In a similar discussion I was once pointed to a blog post (actually originally a sermon) which makes interesting reading, including a story of a white man being helped by a policeman to break into his girlfriend's car, and later comment:

Privilege is more subtle now than in the days of “Whites Only” signs and jobs explicitly reserved for men. Today, it is most likely to show up in the things that don’t happen to the privileged, like when Tim Wise didn’t get arrested for breaking into his girlfriend's car.

I can say for a fact that I've been pulled over by a police officer when driving in the US and not had to fear for my life. Not all are so lucky.

[EEEEEEP]

- More than 50% of violent crimes are committed by only 13.4% of the population (https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/ and https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045217)
- African American are incarcerated at rates approx. 5 times greater than the white population. (https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/)

Lucidly, it seems as though the 'oppression' is moreso related to culture in contrast to racial discrimination.

I still don't see the relation to culture. Correlation != causation. Just because african Americans happen to be incarcerated more and that they do more crimes, only describes part of the patterns. Why are they incarcerated more? What are the circumstances?

What you've mentioned doesn't seem to point to culture (unless I'm missing something)?

In a similar discussion I was once pointed to a blog post (actually originally a sermon) which makes interesting reading, including a story of a white man being helped by a policeman to break into his girlfriend's car, and later comment:
I can say for a fact that I've been pulled over by a police officer when driving in the US and not had to fear for my life. Not all are so lucky.

Anecdotes  are not facts =). People can have possibly different anecdotes, how can your anecdote and the sermon's speak for others? Those are just isolated incidents.

Just because you and the sermon did not have to fear for their life, doesn't mean that you can make the logical conclusion.

[turinturambar]

Anecdotes  are not facts =). People can have possibly different anecdotes, how can your anecdote and the sermon's speak for others? Those are just isolated incidents.

Just because you and the sermon did not have to fear for their life, doesn't mean that you can make the logical conclusion.

Oh, absolutely. I almost added a disclaimer that it was anecdotal only.  Whether the privilege manifests in the exact way described in the blog post I linked I don't know, though I found it an interesting read and it sounds plausible.

However, not being a person of colour living in the US the most I can do is trust their accounts of what it feels like, and I would say the average of the many accounts I have read is that they do tend to feel more fear of the authorities than whites.  And clearly the higher rate of incarceration already linked could justify that fear. I was also hinting at the higher rate of police shooting of black people (here, linking here), including several high profile cases where a traffic stop has led to a death.

[TheBigC]

Anecdotes  are not facts =). People can have possibly different anecdotes, how can your anecdote and the sermon's speak for others? Those are just isolated incidents.

Just because you and the sermon did not have to fear for their life, doesn't mean that you can make the logical conclusion.

I absolutely agree with this part.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.  Particularly with that incarceration example, the NAACP fact sheet you point to seems to me to suggest that this difference is not due to a higher offence rate by African Americans and Hispanics, but due to a higher incarceration rate. If different racial groups are being treated differently for the same crime, how does that support the idea of it being culture rather than race?

First point suggests that the black population disproportionately commits crimes in relation to other populations (i.e. white etc), thence they are clearly not the product of racial discrimination, however instead the problem is rooted in black culture. To further accentuate my contention, the ideology of black discrimination exists in concepts such as income inequality (as caused by purported racism), however, we can see that this disparity occurs due to culture, not race. Therefore, I am suggesting that they are not oppressed in a coincidental essence to that in which the left-leaning activists enforce.

You are suggesting that racial groups are treated differently for the same crime. This suggests that you disagree with the integrity of the American Judicial system... I am not here to prove non-disparity, instead, if you believe the judicial system to be corrupt and to incite disparity, provide me with evidence and we can discuss your evidence from there...

[K888]

This thread has consistently ignored requests to stay on topic. We have now veered very far off the initial topic, so I am locking this thread. I do not believe that any productive discussion is coming from this thread.

If you have any issues/queries, please PM me or another natmod or admin.

[vox nihili]

First point suggests that the black population disproportionately commits crimes in relation to other populations (i.e. white etc), thence they are clearly not the product of racial discrimination, however instead the problem is rooted in black culture.

Obviously Kate has already locked this thread, so there'll be no more discussion from this point.

But, as a community, ATAR Notes is deeply opposed to racism and statements such as that I've clipped, which provide a quasi-intellectual yet misleading argument to underline racist views deserve to be challenged. The assertion that black people commit more crimes and are therefore culturally typed to commit crime is deeply flawed, for a number of reasons:

-black people are over represented in crime figures, notwithstanding some of the methodological limitations of studies that have shown this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782848/)
-there are many potential explanations. The one you have given is that committing crime is inherent to "black culture". To date, there is no convincing evidence that this is true.
-black people are disproportionately likely to experience socioeconomic disadvantage, which has been linked to crime. (Tonry, M. (1997). Ethnicity, crime, and immigration. Crime and justice, 21, 1-29.)
-black people are also more likely to be younger, which has been linked to crime. Both of the above have particular relevance to the "problem" of Sudanese gang crime in Victoria (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-05/fact-check-sudanese-gangs-victoria/10187550)
-black people are more likely to receive harsher penalties for crimes than white people, artificially inflating the perceived severity of black crimes (https://theconversation.com/race-may-affect-sentencing-in-juvenile-crime-7301, Walker, S., Spohn, C., & DeLone, M. (2012). The color of justice: Race, ethnicity, and crime in America. Cengage Learning.)
-police engage in racial profiling, which also artificially inflates the crime rate among black people (Gabbidon, S. L., & Greene, H. T. (2018). Race and crime. Sage Publications.)
-media over report on black crime and under report on white crime, leading to a warped perception of crime among black people (Chiricos, T., & Eschholz, S. (2002). The racial and ethnic typification of crime and the criminal typification of race and ethnicity in local television news. Journal of research in crime and delinquency, 39(4), 400-420.)

At times I feel frustrated, as I suspect TheBigC does, about the way that "debate" is conducted in 2018. There is a tendency in modern discourse to immediately punish anyone who doesn't subscribe to an increasingly narrow set of views. It could be argued that this is the case on both the Left and the Right. I make this point because I want it to be very clear that my contribution is not motivated by a desire to see anyone who does not subscribe to the set of left-leaning views that dominate our age group cast aside as a heathen he just "doesn't get it". AN is a good place for debate and we should be more mindful of engaging thoughtfully with others' views here and welcome this as a good test of our own ideas too. Indeed, we're lucky here to have people willing to engage with each other from very different political perspectives. Testing your own views in an echo chamber is really a hopeless way to develop a thoughtful and intelligent viewpoint, so I'm glad that we have these debates.

The reason, however, that this contribution is important is because by couching clearly racist views in fancy prose and the promise of non-existent evidence helps to reinforce racist tropes about black people. If there really were a link between crime and ethnicity, this would be useful information and I would enthusiastically agree that our approach to crime should emphasise trying to shift those cultural attitudes, much in the way that we have done with the African community and limiting female genital mutilation, for example. However, in the absence of any evidence that there is a link between ethnicity and crime, when other factors are weighted for, such an assertion not only wastes people's time but helps to reinforce the idea that black people are, by nature, somehow defective and that white people are not. In a community such as ours that is based on giving everyone access to the forums so that everyone can enjoy equal access to education, such clearly flawed and discriminatory views cannot be allowed to stand untested.

I would encourage anyone thinking of making a contribution to the debate to consider the extent to which your views are motivated by your own personal prejudice and, if you believe there is evidence to support your view, produce it. Otherwise expect to get called out for publishing crap.

[TheBigC]

Dear AN,

I am opening this new topic to respond the closing of the “alt-left’s influence on higher education” topic. Upon the closure of the topic, it was identified, specifically by Vox Nihili – who I deeply respect and has a very authoritative position on this forum, that I have perpetuated purportedly racist intimations. Unfortunately, given the closure of the thread, I cannot forthrightly riposte this contention, thus I will do so here.

Firstly and inherently, it is of upmost importance that I identify that I do not class myself as racist toward other racial groups or ethnic backgrounds. My aim or primary goal in life is to achieve truth and justice within the context of any dialectical discourse, not to exemplify deeply flawed or unfair commentary. I am not here to apologise for my posts, though I am here to elucidate the seemingly present discriminatory ambience concomitant to those declarations. I have many friends who are black and do not view them in a demeanour that would presuppose that they are more likely than anybody else to commit violent crimes. When I present statistics, I aim to ensure very high credibility (ie. governmental publishment), thence when I describe ‘black culture’ as partially responsible for the criminal activity that occurs within inner-city suburbs in North America, these statistics largely support that sentiment, with the assumption that the American judiciary system is not flawed. Now, I acknowledge that racism has occurred toward the black community systemically and horrifically in the past that has been a true setback for their socioeconomic development (i.e. slavery) and racism is still ubiquitous today. Though, what I simply cannot support is the ideology that black communities suffer from these crime statistics etc. solely due to modern day racism. These issues do arise from past racism and I fully support that. If we are to assume that these issues all stem from racism and oppression, and are erroneous in these beliefs, then the issue that occurs within these low socioeconomically developed communities will never be resolved. Fair and righteous denouements occur from truth and I am here fighting against racism and inequality as much as the rest of you are. It is horrible that we have degraded into two polarised groups who seem to lack any commodity with one another, when, in reality, I am fighting the same issues as you. I am for the benefit of humanity as a whole and loathe segregation and hierarchical discrimination.

Now, digressing, I would also like to identify the truly unfair essence of Vox making this comment in a closed thread, when he well and truly understands that I cannot directly respond and justify my own remarks. After reading such a comment, which I agree with on some argumentative positions, I am deeply apprehensive of the repercussions of this imbalance on my own reputation. To clarify, I can totally understand why one may insinuate that racism is intolerable in response to my comment and hence proceed to repudiate my supposed ‘reputation’ as if one is racist, they do not deserve said reputability. I agree! They do not. But I do not believe I was being racist.

Ultimately, if I have offended any of you, I apologise – I really do. My intentions are good. I do not aim to provoke, but I feel quelled when I am identified as racist after producing a conjecture with large supporting evidence. I lack the time to produce all of this evidence and cherry picking is not something I am a fan of, thus I will not discuss the issue further here, though if anyone would like to PM, then I am willing to continue discussion after November.