Login

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

March 29, 2024, 01:19:38 am

Author Topic: COVID-19 and Education  (Read 84126 times)  Share 

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

brothanathan

  • Guest
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2020, 05:13:21 pm »
+5
Making entrance exams would just mean another scholarship/selective type exam but for entry into higher education institutions. Leading to more coaching programs and tutoring opportunists -> further disadvantages -> still inaccurate in terms of estimating a student's subjective ability. Another way of putting this is it would be Naplan 3.0 (GAT being 2.0). There's always loopholes in the system.

We need to redefine education, it shouldn't be a form of business or a game of statistics OR ANYTHING THAT FITS THIS DESCRIPTION.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 10:35:16 pm by brothanathan »

whys

  • VIC MVP - 2020
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 722
  • Respect: +916
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #121 on: April 09, 2020, 05:18:54 pm »
+6
All in all, I think scrapping the ATAR at this moment may not be such a great idea. Yes, the coronavirus will impact people - some more and some less, but I doubt they can come up with a better system in such a short amount of time, especially when we are already nearing the middle of the year. We need a way for universities to decide which applicants to accept, and for now the ATAR is probably the only feasible option. A different education system can always be created, considered and debated, but I don't think now is the time for that.
psych [50] bio [50]
2021-2025: BMedSci/MD @ Monash

J_Rho

  • MOTM: MARCH 20
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 935
  • Respect: +756
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #122 on: April 09, 2020, 05:38:55 pm »
+2
I think after this is all over I'd like to think a new education system would be considered.
— VCE —
English 30, Further Maths 33, Biology 33, Legal Studies 27, Psychology 32

— University —
Bachelor of Nursing @ Monash
Bachelor of Counselling & Psychological Science @ ACAP

S_R_K

  • MOTM: Feb '21
  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 487
  • Respect: +58
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #123 on: April 09, 2020, 06:19:18 pm »
+2
This is an interesting point. :o (I love all these different opinions)

My two cents here, but you know how you said 'minimum academic standards' right? What happens when an exam is considered to be very difficult one year or really easy? Would universities change their 'minimum academic standards' or would it increase/decrease due to demand of how many people want to study a certain course?

I don't think that's much of an issue. Looking at grade distributions on VCAA exams for past years, the variation in student performance is fairly small. Generally speaking, I think it is worse to deny entry to capable students than it is to grant entry to underprepared students, so it wouldn't be all that bad if universities slightly lowballed their entry requirements. (This wouldn't be any worse then the current system, where universities are already under lots of pressure to admit underprepared and incapable students, because they are competing for enrolments to achieve greater funding).

Universities could fix their own standards based upon how rigorous they want their courses to be, and what level they want the students to be at upon entry. 

Quote
This is also an economic issue too as we can't have everyone who passed the minimum academic standards get into the course they want (there are only so many spots)

This is the point that we (ie. people involved in education) need to push back against. There is no economic issue. The reason we currently don't allow any academically capable student to enrol in a course of their choice is that our federal government chooses not to adequately fund universities. They can afford it (the Australian government issues its own currency, so it has unlimited money). They choose not to.

Quote
Also got a quick question, let's say you are a year 12 in 2020 and say that all the exams you did this year were hard (assume you barely passed the minimum academic standard thingy). Then let's say you had a gap year or something and then when you apply again, would they compare your scores based off the cohort you graduated from or the new cohort coming into uni who had easier exams?🤣 (I don't even know if what I said makes sense. Like how would you compare your scores to those that did the same subject in different years?)

Use the same approach that currently works for students who defer their studies for a year.

Making entrance exams would just mean another scholarship/selective type exam but for entry into higher education institutions.

No it wouldn't. Use VCE exams (or HSC or whatever, if enrolling from interstate).

Coaching for exams is always a problem. Arguably the ATAR exacerbates the issue because students are competing against each other, so there is an incentive to not share resources.

turinturambar

  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
  • TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA
  • Respect: +184
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2020, 08:10:44 pm »
+6
This is the point that we (ie. people involved in education) need to push back against. There is no economic issue. The reason we currently don't allow any academically capable student to enrol in a course of their choice is that our federal government chooses not to adequately fund universities. They can afford it (the Australian government issues its own currency, so it has unlimited money). They choose not to.

Depends what end game you want.  If it's just for self-education, then yes, anyone can learn anything (at their own cost).  If the degrees are being taken with the eventual aim of contributing in some way to people being employable, paying taxes, etc. (a reasonable justification for government support), then letting anyone do anything they want won't necessarily assist in people getting the jobs they are aiming for.  Unless the Australian government is issuing jobs as well as currency.

Of course, this is already a problem with the existing system, as I understand universities aren't strongly incentivised to produce the "right number" of people for any field (which isn't an easy number to calculate in any case...)
“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” – Neil Gaiman

SS1314

  • Trendsetter
  • **
  • Posts: 120
  • Respect: +18
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2020, 09:09:31 pm »
+8

They can afford it (the Australian government issues its own currency, so it has unlimited money).

The government does NOT have 'unlimited money', it has an annual budget from which to make ends meet. Printing a crap ton of money is just a tax on savers and will cause more problems than solutions.
2021: English, Environmental Science, Chemistry, Physics [50]

Offering 2022 head start classes (PM for details)


turinturambar

  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
  • TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA
  • Respect: +184
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2020, 12:51:02 am »
+4
I've seen a few comments about the use of Year 11 marks, and I agree it sounds like a terrible idea (and I say that as a student who didn't know how not to be serious, and I think I got as good marks in Year 11 as Year 12).  It's a bad situation all round, and it's not your fault, and it sucks whichever solution they come up with.

However

Sometimes that's life.  Sometimes things don't work the way you expected or thought they would work.  Sometimes you are judged on performance at tasks that you thought were unimportant.  Sometimes your actions have consequences that neither you nor anyone else could foresee.  Personally, I've lost count of the number of times I've found the world didn't work as I'd been taught it would.  Some of them felt quite unfair, but that's life.

So many are affected: The person who switched jobs shortly before Covid-19 blew up and is now unemployed.  Or has found their job non-essential.  Or moved state or country and is unable to get unemployment benefits.  Or signed a new lease.  Or booked their dream holiday.  Or planned their wedding.  Or was on the verge of retiring and had their plans upset by the stock market crash.  Basically everyone has made plans or had goals or made decisions based on the world staying much the same as 2019, and clearly it isn't, and some are going to be in a better place to deal with that than others.

A friend in the US just made this comment:
Quote
Pro tip: Don't make huge life changes less than a year before a pandemic shuts the world down. It causes some complications.

And the same helpful "advice" applies for Year 12s now:
Quote
Pro tip: Don't do Year 12 in the year a pandemic shuts the world down. It causes some complications.

None of us planned or expected for 2020 to turn out like it has so far.  All of us have to figure out how to deal with it.  We're making it up as we go, and sadly some of the attempted solutions will hurt some more than others.  I'm not trying to suggest your pain doesn't matter, because it does.  But, whatever they come up with and whatever the situation looks like later in the year, we don't have an option for a normal Year 12 in 2020.  That's not fair, but it is life.
“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” – Neil Gaiman

www

  • Trendsetter
  • **
  • Posts: 196
  • Respect: +86
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2020, 01:00:35 am »
+5
The government does NOT have 'unlimited money', it has an annual budget from which to make ends meet. Printing a crap ton of money is just a tax on savers and will cause more problems than solutions.

On top of this, the government keeps lowering the threshold of income for paying back HECS to reduce budget costs - and they'll probably keep doing so as unpaid student debt gets higher and higher. It's a real issue and part of why unis can't just admit everyone and give them all CSP positions or heavily subsidised education.

I don't think that's much of an issue. Looking at grade distributions on VCAA exams for past years, the variation in student performance is fairly small.

It's been years since I've looked at a grade distribution, but isn't the lack of noticeable change only due to the fact that VCAA adjust the thresholds for particular grades depending on the raw performance of students?
2017~2020 (Monash) | BA, BA(Hons)Psy
2021~ | job! - AN hiatus, it's been fun here (:

Stormbreaker-X

  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 699
  • Respect: +31
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #128 on: April 11, 2020, 08:37:00 pm »
+5
My thoughts exactly. If someone truly believes that the ATAR should be scrapped, then they should have a proposition for a better system. I haven't heard a single idea for a better system. As opposed to straight standardised tests, the ATAR not only rewards aptitude, but hard work and persistence. If you don't plan to go to university, then you don't need to receive an ATAR.

The bottom line is that students need to be ranked in one way or another for university entrances, and I believe that looking at Year 12 results are the best way of doing it. Our system is vastly superior to countries like US, where they consider all sorts of things like extra-curricular activities and internships, which mostly benefits those who have parents that can fund those activities, (not to mention heaps of application essays that are just a competition of who can find the best application writer) and the ATAR completely avoids nepotism and gender or racial bias. Of course, the ATAR system isn't perfect, and I think there are plenty of valid criticisms, but I am yet to hear of a reasonable alternative.

My final point is in relation to the idea that the ATAR being a rank is a bad thing. Universities will inevitably rank applicants by academic performance, so I believe that having a system that can assess and balance academic performance across the whole state is far more equitable than leaving it to university discretion.
No atars should not be scrapped and in terms of uni entrance someone will have to miss out on their preferred courses because imagine what it would be like if everyone got into law/med/engineer. Academics in my opinion is the best way to rank students as oppose to the U.S system where other things are taken into consideration. I personally think the atar system is quite good (some flaws in it) however it was done its duty.

TheEagle

  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
  • Respect: +12
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2020, 01:08:01 am »
+1
Hey everyone!!

My school hasn't released a statement about what they're going to do during term 2. It is an independent school, does this mean they get to choose whether we go to school or not. James Merlino, the minister of education said every student should stay home if they can but I am not sure if he's directing his message to public schools or the whole lot...

What do you guys say?

Aaron

  • Honorary Moderator
  • ATAR Notes Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 3932
  • Respect: +1536
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2020, 02:06:11 am »
+4
Hey everyone!!

My school hasn't released a statement about what they're going to do during term 2. It is an independent school, does this mean they get to choose whether we go to school or not. James Merlino, the minister of education said every student should stay home if they can but I am not sure if he's directing his message to public schools or the whole lot...

What do you guys say?

Realistically it's directed at all schools.

All schools are required to stay open though for students who cannot be supervised to learn at home e.g. children of essential workers. Dan Tehan (Federal Education Minister) stated he will be enforcing the independent schools to remain open as part of their funding arrangements.

I would be very surprised if independent schools asked all students to come in, given the current social isolation restrictions in Victoria. Independent schools use what happens in government schools to assist in their decision making - e.g. salaries for teachers.. I would imagine this is no exception.

It is impossible to enforce social distancing in a school environment with all students present, particularly if it's a larger metro school.

Personally, I think it's very poor form that your school hasn't announced anything given how close it is until the Term resumes. We (my school) have been working on a plan for remote learning for just under a month now in the likelihood this would happen. I would also be very surprised if your school did not have a plan like this in place.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 02:09:08 am by Aaron »
Experience in teaching at both secondary and tertiary levels.

website // new forum profile

turinturambar

  • Forum Obsessive
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
  • TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA
  • Respect: +184
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #131 on: April 12, 2020, 01:20:43 pm »
+3
No atars should not be scrapped and in terms of uni entrance someone will have to miss out on their preferred courses because imagine what it would be like if everyone got into law/med/engineer. Academics in my opinion is the best way to rank students as oppose to the U.S system where other things are taken into consideration. I personally think the atar system is quite good (some flaws in it) however it was done its duty.

Not everyone wants to do law/med/engineering (fortunately).  Though it's certainly possible far more people want to do them than society has a need for.  And so I completely agree with you.

However, your words do make me wonder what effect scrapping entry requirements would have on the idea of "Wasting your ATAR".  Currently, as I understand it, some people with very high marks do law/medicine because they feel they should or because of family pressure.  If there were no entry requirements, maybe more people with lower marks would do law/med, but more people with the highest marks would be free to do what they actually want to do.
“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” – Neil Gaiman

whys

  • VIC MVP - 2020
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 722
  • Respect: +916
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #132 on: April 12, 2020, 02:46:38 pm »
+2
Not everyone wants to do law/med/engineering (fortunately).  Though it's certainly possible far more people want to do them than society has a need for.  And so I completely agree with you.

However, your words do make me wonder what effect scrapping entry requirements would have on the idea of "Wasting your ATAR".  Currently, as I understand it, some people with very high marks do law/medicine because they feel they should or because of family pressure.  If there were no entry requirements, maybe more people with lower marks would do law/med, but more people with the highest marks would be free to do what they actually want to do.

I would like to add that a very high proportion of students want to do law/med/dent/engineering (I mean, ~16,000 people took the UCAT last year), like you said. Scrapping entry requirements won't mean that people with higher marks are free to do what they want though, because there still needs to be some way for unis to rank students, and so people with lower marks are less likely to get in (I hope this makes sense). This may also make it easier for those with higher marks to get in if entry requirements are fully scrapped. It also means more people would apply for those positions and there would be more competition, which isn't necessarily a good thing. Also, there is a reason marks matter for uni courses. I totally understand that ATARs don't always correlate to great uni scores, but it's the best representation we have, so accepting anyone regardless of marks may not be seen as fair in the eyes of society/schools/students.
psych [50] bio [50]
2021-2025: BMedSci/MD @ Monash

Stormbreaker-X

  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 699
  • Respect: +31
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #133 on: April 12, 2020, 05:45:07 pm »
Click here to hide this post again.
-11
April 12, 2020, 05:45:07 pm - Hidden.

Lear

  • MOTM: JUL 18
  • Part of the furniture
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Respect: +328
Re: COVID-19 and Education
« Reply #134 on: April 12, 2020, 09:20:20 pm »
+18
In my opinion and mine alone, I prefer those with high scores to do the important courses like medicine for obvious reasons. I mean no one wants to have bad doctors or engineers ya know. Those with higher marks generally do not go into courses with lower entry scores because it takes away their pride and families would be very disappointed. Personally I am not a fan of people with lower scores to do medicine or courses of that level, since getting a low atar already told its own story. Yes, it is true an atar is not a reflection of future performance, but if someone gets a bad atar it does show lack of commitment.

The reasons may not be as obviously correct as you think. It might, in theory, make sense to have 'smarter' people becoming doctors or engineers but this is not true for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the ATAR isn't even necessarily the perfect measure of someone's 'smartness'. Indeed, probably a better predictor of ATAR success is how rich your parents are rather than your IQ. You say a low ATAR tells its own 'story' and shows 'lack of commitment' but this is often very far from the truth. Here's a quick generalised example. Student A: Attends 5 different tutors for each subject, goes to a private school, has all the time in the world to study and has a plethora of resources at his/her disposal. Student B: Goes to a low SES school, has not even heard of external tutoring, works two jobs including night shifts sometimes just to help feed his/her family and barely gets time to study (or even a quiet place to do so). I'll let you imagine the difference in their outcomes. Another factor is that the entry requirements for the courses you mentioned are very high. Leaving behind the ATAR measure, are we really saying that a 95 scorer isn't 'good enough' for such a course, unlike a 99 scorer? A few ATAR points?

Here's a fun study for you to read --> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329408770_Selection_and_lottery_in_medical_school_admissions_who_gains_and_who_loses

In short, it showed there is often very little or non-existent differences in the future performance of medical students picked through a stratified lottery system compared to an entry score based one. Meanwhile, there were massive gains in the diversity of the students in turn benefitting society as a whole.

ETA: Probably doesn't belong here. Feel free to move this conversation to appropriate thread mods!

 



« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 09:24:55 pm by Lear »
2018: ATAR: 99.35
Subjects
English: 44
Methods: 43
Further Maths: 50
Chemistry: 46
Legal: 40
2019: Bachelor of Medical Science and Doctor of Medicine @ Monash