Do we need an ATAR?

[hebete11]

Do you think it would be better if no one was given their ATAR?
And students were still "ranked", but it was all done behind the scenes. So students would receive their uni offer in January, but without the middle step in December.
What are your thoughts on this?

[chasej]

people need to be fully informed so they understand their options.

if you don't want to see your ATAR you can just ignore it and not open the letter.

[hebete11]

But don't students choose their Uni Options early in the year?

[Joseph41]

But don't students choose their Uni Options early in the year?

Not really. In fact, there is a period after results are relaxed in which preferences can be changed.

[Darth_Pepe]

Do you think it would be better if no one was given their ATAR?
And students were still "ranked", but it was all done behind the scenes. So students would receive their uni offer in January, but without the middle step in December.
What are your thoughts on this?

I personally think its a terrible idea. You would wait like 2 months before knowing if u fucked up or not. I dont think its fair for the people who worked hard and achieved a great score but in the end dont even find out.

[hebete11]

I understand what you're saying, but why do they need to find out? Surely if they put the work in, and if they actually learnt the curriculum to the best of their ability, then they should be proud of that. They successfully completed Year 12. Lots of students try hard, but they don't always get the mark they want (especially at the upper end, which can sometimes come down to pure luck). I think it's the wrong message to let students who try hard feel disappointed over a number, and instead let them feel empowered that they actually learnt something because they wanted to learn it. Some students will still feel disappointed if they don't get into their uni course, but this is inevitable under any system, and would reach far fewer students if no one finds out their ATAR.

[geminii]

I understand what you're saying, but why do they need to find out? Surely if they put the work in, and if they actually learnt the curriculum to the best of their ability, then they should be proud of that. They successfully completed Year 12. Lots of students try hard, but they don't always get the mark they want (especially at the upper end, which can sometimes come down to pure luck). I think it's the wrong message to let students who try hard feel disappointed over a number, and instead let them feel empowered that they actually learnt something because they wanted to learn it. Some students will still feel disappointed if they don't get into their uni course, but this is inevitable under any system, and would reach far fewer students if no one finds out their ATAR.

I don't know about you, but knowing that I would never find out my ATAR would give me no motivation to do well, as what motivates me most is my ATAR goal. If I were to never know the result of my efforts for the past 13+ years of my life, I would be devastated. And if you really don't want to know your score, you always have the option of, well, just not looking at your ATAR.

[Alter]

Secrecy doesn't really aid with the process because you would never be able to appeal anything. Imagine if you ended up with a study score of 35 in a subject because your sac marks weren't entered correctly when you had earned a 50. Then you could massively lose out on aggregate points and not get into your dream course. By obscuring the process, you leave no grounds for appeal. However, in the current system, it is possible to fix it up when things go haywire.

Plus, it'd make the whole scholarship process and aims to get into courses completely confusing for existing vce students. If you're not worried about your ATAR, simply never look at it.

[hebete11]

I can totally understand where you are coming from...but wouldn't it be better if our motivation came from a desire to learn, rather than the superficial and extrinsic motivation of a number? That is true, but in a society where schools are so bogged down in ATARs and Study Scores, my concern is not because I am indifferent to my ATAR, but because the idea of an ATAR over schools detracts from learning and just makes students stressed as they feel their worth is being assessed. And surely there would be a way to appeal your course if it is not your first preference.

[geminii]

I can totally understand where you are coming from...but wouldn't it be better if our motivation came from a desire to learn, rather than the superficial and extrinsic motivation of a number?

Unfortunately a lot of people these days would simply decide not to try if it meant that they never knew their grades. For many people it is the only thing motivating them to do well. Not much we can do to change this.

an ATAR over schools detracts from learning and just makes students stressed as they feel their worth is being assessed.

I think the passion and drive people have to get a good ATAR to get into their course is what drives them to learn in the first place. You take away the motivation, you take away the effort. It'd be horrible for many people to never know how they'd done in VCE. It's a milestone and an important part of a high schooler's life (arguably the most important, in regards to academics), and they deserve nothing less than having the ability to know their own score. Whether they decide to know or not is their choice, but they should at least have the option.

[hebete11]

But students would still need to do well enough to get into the course they want. And I understand that, but shouldn't we question this? If you only have the motivation to get marks, and have no motivation to actually learn your subjects because you enjoy them, then there is something seriously wrong with our educational system. Society puts so much glory to perfect scores and 50s. I have seen many people declare that they want a 50 in their subjects so they can bathe in this glory. But the reality is they probably won't get this. Study Scores and ATARs just make people stressed because they aim too high, or they alternatively aim too low and justify a dearth of study. Society is contradictory in both reassuring ATARs do not matter and glorifying students who receive a perfect score! Fair enough to the latter, because they worked hard, but it also ignores the vast majority of people who also try hard and receive a lower score. Knowing your score can add a great deal of pressure and can make students feel bad about themselves. Shouldn't we promote a society where learning is prioritised? Shouldn't the most important part of your academic school life be to have learnt the curriculum, not to have received a number?

[dankfrank420]

In this age of "everyone gets a medal" I'd much rather we acknowledge good performance and hard work. I'd think you'd find that lots of kids wouldn't try as hard knowing that their result and hard work wouldn't be quantified and acknowledged.

You're always free to not look at your ATAR if you only care about the act of learning itself.

[geminii]

Shouldn't we promote a society where learning is prioritised? Shouldn't the most important part of your academic school life be to have learnt the curriculum, not to have received a number?

Yes but even if we tried, we would only be changing the system and not the minds of society. You can't change everyone's mind overnight and have them stop caring about their grades. It's natural for us to want to do well, and if learning is how to get there, then that's what everyone's going to do. Granted, not everyone is going to get a good score, but that's how life is. And how are people going to be able to have a stable mindset for university if what they were taught all their lives was that grades don't matter and you should just enjoy learning? Although in a perfect world people enjoyed learning, this just isn't the case. And so something needs to be there as a reward, or an incentive for people to work towards. Otherwise nothing happens.

In this age of "everyone gets a medal" I'd much rather we acknowledge good performance and hard work. I'd think you'd find that lots of kids wouldn't try as hard knowing that their result and hard work would be quantified and acknowledged.

You're always free to not look at your ATAR if you only care about the act of learning itself.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

[hebete11]

But my concern isn't about that. I think it's perfectly justified to reward hard work, but my issue lies in the extrinsic motivation to achieve this. It's a massive flaw in our educational system. And yeah, you're absolutely right. Realistically this would never actually work because most people (including myself, I'm not claiming to be above everyone else) are driven by their ATARs. I'm just questioning why we are, because we really shouldn't be. It might even be liberating for students to study for enjoyment rather than marks. Maybe we'd care less about ATARS if society made less of a fuss about them? Like if society rewarded knowledge and wisdom more than they did marks. It would be an extremely gradual process though. It would make school life a lot easier if we didn't see it. Society ignores many students who try to the best of their ability and don't receive a high mark, even though at times it can be more impressive at a personal level. And wouldn't a motivation to learn be beneficial at university?

[chasej]

But my concern isn't about that. I think it's perfectly justified to reward hard work, but my issue lies in the extrinsic motivation to achieve this. It's a massive flaw in our educational system. And yeah, you're absolutely right. Realistically this would never actually work because most people (including myself, I'm not claiming to be above everyone else) are driven by their ATARs. I'm just questioning why we are, because we really shouldn't be. It might even be liberating for students to study for enjoyment rather than marks. Maybe we'd care less about ATARS if society made less of a fuss about them? Like if society rewarded knowledge and wisdom more than they did marks. It would be an extremely gradual process though. It would make school life a lot easier if we didn't see it. Society ignores many students who try to the best of their ability and don't receive a high mark, even though at times it can be more impressive at a personal level. And wouldn't a motivation to learn be beneficial at university?

There is no such thing as 'society'. There are merely an addition of the thoughts and views of individuals.

People reward ATARs because it is an objective identifier of success in high school. One could have tried hard, gone to all classes etc, but there is still no widespread objective identifier which can quantify that. Likewise there is no quantifier for 'wisdom' but there is for an exam mark.

For things to be judged at a personal level is to embrace subjectivism, where the same thing is different in different circumstances, but that is destructive, it leads to below average results being awarded and above average results being demeaned - and ultimately leads to destruction.

Ultimately, when you look for a medicine graduate (or any other field), what you are looking for is their actual ability to perform in medicine (or any relevant field), not their 'wisdom' or 'effort'.