Does going to a private school make you get a better atar?

[brenden]

Just wanted to flag that "it's up to the individual's desire or work ethic, no matter what situation" is realistically bullshit, as glorious as it is to entertain neoliberal fantasies about the world. Obviously, there are people every year that claw their way out of a shitty school by busting their guts, but for every person that claws their way out of a shitty school and gets a 90, there's 10 people who bust their guts even harder and fail to make their goals. --I'm not talking directly to notveryasian. I'm addressing the 'general consensus'--

I will not disagree with the fact that top-tier private schools do provide more resources in some cases, e.g. additional practice exams, after school classes, etc. With this being said, however, every student can obtain these resources - the majority of these are also easily accessible.

How are they easily accessible? Lol. A good portion of public school students probably still think that the textbook is superior to practice questions anyway.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/high-school-fees-dont-equate-to-higher-wages-20140816-104swb.html

This does nothing for your argument. If anything, it very loosely goes against it. The writer mentions more private school students are going to the 'prestigious' universities, which is implicitly suggesting that they're getting a higher ATAR. Moreover, we aren't discussing pay in later life... and pay in later life between university graduates isn't relevant, because we're talking about whether it's easier to get to university from one type of school or the other. If it were true that it's easier to get a higher ATAR at a private school, then it makes sense that uni graduates from public/private schools could have the same earnings, because the research population is skewed.

They're not the majority, but these schools do exist. The trick is to find them.

Last line sums this article up nicely. This article shows that not all private schools are good and not all public schools are bad. We know that socio-economic status is the biggest influence on education outcomes, but that still doesn't show that it's just as easy for Student X of low socio-economic status to get a high ATAR at their local school that at a private school.

[Russ]

I personally don't feel that the desire to do well is a separate issue. There are numerous cases where Student A at a public school performs at a higher standard than Student B at a high-tier private school simply because Student A is motivated and genuinely cares about their education.

These are just that; individual cases. Motivation and personal drive is a separate issue in that it is (mostly) a property of the individual student ie not something that we can really use to assess which school is 'better'. Nobody has said it's not possible to do well at a public school nor is it guaranteed at a private school. I speak to the average case, where I think being in a private school will be advantageous over a public school.

Russ: Would you mind elaborating on the reasons why you feel that it is easier to obtain higher scores at a private school?

Sure. I believe private schools more likely to have;
Higher quality of teacher
Higher quality of facilities
More established academic programs for advanced students
Increased availability of academic resources and support services
Better measurable markers (eg smaller class sizes)
Higher expectations of students

I believe these (in addition to other ones, this is just off the top of my head) all contribute positively to educational outcomes and do so to a greater extent than would be expected at a government school.

If you go to this website and sort by median ATAR you get a rank of schools. The fact that MacRob is at the top of that list proves that you don't need to go to a private school to get a good ATAR score. The fact that of the next ~20 schools, 19 are private, indicates to me that it certainly does help. I think that given the large number of reasons to believe that private schools provide better quality education it is not unreasonable to believe that they do. It's perfectly plausible that I'm being misled by heuristics/logic in interpreting these statements (Linda is just a bank teller!) but I don't think that to be the case.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/high-school-fees-dont-equate-to-higher-wages-20140816-104swb.html

This is discussing employment outcomes post university (I read the same article a few days ago in the paper) and is irrelevant in a discussion of ATAR score. It's interesting for different reasons.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/money-cant-guarantee-a-good-education/story-e6frg8h6-1226808835031?nk=9fad59bfcfdf2a78ef419e7a12ac9d1d

This one manages to avoid presenting much in the way of actual research I can evaluate. It catalogs a series of desirable qualities in a school but doesn't actually address the public/private debate directly. He makes the point that you aren't guaranteed good academic results at a private school (which I agree with) but that doesn't mean that private schools don't make it easier to obtain a higher ATAR. His description of a 'perfect' school makes no mention of private/public and in fact concedes at the end of his article that it's hard to find schools like these in the public system.

[pi]

I don't think going to a top-tier private school (including schools like MHS and Mac.Rob in this because they're almost private in their exclusiveness) will "make" you get a better ATAR, but I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think they make it easier to get a better ATAR. Sure you have the odd kid who has buckets of motivation and will shine from their #250 ranked suburban public school, and that's good for them, but I think it's a lot easier to shine when you're already in a school full of others like you. I think there's a /good/ reason why so many parents push their children to sit scholarship and selective entry school exams from early ages, those schools make it easier to do better.

I can't really speak for the middle- and lower-tier private schools because I don't know much about them (my perception is that they wouldn't help much compared to the local govt school, and the religious focus is why people go there), but if you chuck the average student from a Western suburbs school into a school like MGS I'd be very very surprised if they don't do better in the end simply due to more caring teachers, higher quality resources, and a bunch of others which positively impact a student's academic performance.

In fact, the jocks tend to be the highest achievers often! Eg - the captain of our school cricket and AFL teams also got two 50s, and a former cricket captain was also a school vice captain and topped the state in a subject.

Yeah and Cyril Rioli graduated from (wait for it!) Scotch with an ATAR of about 30

[brenden]

I don't think going to a top-tier private school (including schools like MHS and Mac.Rob in this because they're almost private in their exclusiveness) will "make" you get a better ATAR, but I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think they make it easier to get a better ATAR. Sure you have the odd kid who has buckets of motivation and will shine from their #250 ranked suburban public school, and that's good for them, but I think it's a lot easier to shine when you're already in a school full of others like you. I think there's a /good/ reason why so many parents push their children to sit scholarship and selective entry school exams from early ages, those schools make it easier to do better.

I can't really speak for the middle- and lower-tier private schools because I don't know much about them (my perception is that they wouldn't help much compared to the local govt school, and the religious focus is why people go there), but if you chuck the average student from a Western suburbs school into a school like MGS I'd be very very surprised if they don't do better in the end simply due to more caring teachers, higher quality resources, and a bunch of others which positively impact a student's academic performance.

Yeah and Cyril Rioli graduated from (wait for it!) Scotch with an ATAR of about 30

Sums it up nicely.
(DON'T DISS ON CYRIL HAVE YOU SEEN DAT OUTSIDE RUN)

[zsteve]

It does give you better scaling, but I wouldn't give much for a better atar unless you're really REALLY determined. I remember reading somewhere that private school (including Catholic school) performance is only marginally better, if not worse, than public schools, for primary-junior-secondary at least.
@Pi - who's Cyril Rioli?

[Hannibal]

It does give you better scaling, but I wouldn't give much for a better atar unless you're really REALLY determined. I remember reading somewhere that private school (including Catholic school) performance is only marginally better, if not worse, than public schools, for primary-junior-secondary at least.
@Pi - who's Cyril Rioli?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Rioli

A hawks footballer .

[Billybob98]

I'd say that going to private school would increase your chances of getting a higher ATAR (whatever that number may be to you). I mean, think about logically - private schools are almost obligated to have their students attain high score otherwise why would you pay the astronomical fees when you could save the money and go to a public school. So how do you ensure high scores? Revision, revision and more revision. From what I've heard from friends and other people, the private schools around my area starts shoving practise exams down students throats, almost from the start of the year, so of course this has a positive effect on their scores at the end of the year. Public schools, or at least mine, seem to take a different approach. At my school, if you want to do well it's up to you to motivate yourself and put the hard work in at home (which has it's own benefits and it's one of the things I love about public education). So really while you're admittedly better supported to achieve a high score in a private school, it doesn't mean that it's not achievable at a public school by any means, you just have to make a conscious decision to work hard and reap the benefits.