Post by: heids on April 25, 2016, 04:32:10 pm
I'm also hoping the discussion is helpful to others in similar uncertainty. If you've got doubts about uni right now, you're 300% free to join in with your own questions about your own predicament.
For background on my personal situation and feelings:
Spoiler
I don't mind uni. It's okay while I'm doing it. My course isn't hard. I'm not feeling stressed about it and haven't found the transition difficult. I just... don't care about uni.
Originally I gave in to uni because I loved learning/school and thought I'd love uni in the same way; besides... everyone did it. But uni just feels like a waste of time.
Like. Right now I'm writing an essay on overcoming nurse-patient communication barriers. Well and good. It's actually useful (unlike all my other assignments to date) and I'd already studied the topic from pure interest. But scrounging for scholarly references, cutting important information because it doesn't fit, and following certain useless specifications? Only takes me fourteen times as long as it would have to learn and implement the relevant information, I guess. It's just... I could have spent that extra time learning/practicing something else useful. And in the rest of the unit, I've had to attend useless tutes listening to you waffle, and answer questions that make no sense, and deliver creative group presentations which teach me nothing. It's frustrating. And I have to pay you a few grand for this?!
Don't get me wrong. I love learning. I spend way too many hours reading psychology and philosophy and linguistics articles. I'm super keen - probably too keen - on all the skills you're trying to teach me - teamwork, curiosity, critical thinking, writing, socialising, open-mindedness, studiousness, blah blah. But you know what? They're actually all skills I'm already actively trying to teach myself. I'm growing a lot - because I'm just so damn ignorant and have so much I absolutely to learn! - but not from uni. I guess that's the thing. Uni, I feel like you're actually getting in the way of me reaching out and learning these things. I want to forge a life with real meaning - one that's self-inflicted haha, not one that just blindly follows the scripts because that's how it's done.
Career-wise? I love my current job intensely. While I haven't mentally sorted out my longer-term direction, I'm confident that I'd still be happy and would head somewhere fulfilling... probably more fulfilling. If I did end up dropping out after this semester, I'd be finding something in line with my current driving passions.
Summary: I'm over the education system. I actually want to - shock horror! - learn.
Originally I gave in to uni because I loved learning/school and thought I'd love uni in the same way; besides... everyone did it. But uni just feels like a waste of time.
Like. Right now I'm writing an essay on overcoming nurse-patient communication barriers. Well and good. It's actually useful (unlike all my other assignments to date) and I'd already studied the topic from pure interest. But scrounging for scholarly references, cutting important information because it doesn't fit, and following certain useless specifications? Only takes me fourteen times as long as it would have to learn and implement the relevant information, I guess. It's just... I could have spent that extra time learning/practicing something else useful. And in the rest of the unit, I've had to attend useless tutes listening to you waffle, and answer questions that make no sense, and deliver creative group presentations which teach me nothing. It's frustrating. And I have to pay you a few grand for this?!
Don't get me wrong. I love learning. I spend way too many hours reading psychology and philosophy and linguistics articles. I'm super keen - probably too keen - on all the skills you're trying to teach me - teamwork, curiosity, critical thinking, writing, socialising, open-mindedness, studiousness, blah blah. But you know what? They're actually all skills I'm already actively trying to teach myself. I'm growing a lot - because I'm just so damn ignorant and have so much I absolutely to learn! - but not from uni. I guess that's the thing. Uni, I feel like you're actually getting in the way of me reaching out and learning these things. I want to forge a life with real meaning - one that's self-inflicted haha, not one that just blindly follows the scripts because that's how it's done.
Career-wise? I love my current job intensely. While I haven't mentally sorted out my longer-term direction, I'm confident that I'd still be happy and would head somewhere fulfilling... probably more fulfilling. If I did end up dropping out after this semester, I'd be finding something in line with my current driving passions.
Summary: I'm over the education system. I actually want to - shock horror! - learn.
Thoughts, anyone?
Post by: brenden on April 25, 2016, 09:47:55 pm
Personally, I got a lot out of uni, strictly in the learning sense. I didn't really talk to too many people interpersonally, but I threw myself into engaging with lectures and tutorials and always took it pretty seriously. In philosophy (my major, for anyone wondering), I guess it would be easy enough to disregard a question like "do numbers exist", because - seriously - who gives a fuck? But taking the questions seriously and working hard to find an answer did a lot for me. I feel I've grown a lot from my university experience. Without a doubt I'm better at reading, writing, and thinking (particularly the last one), as perhaps as a side effect of those things I've become a bit more rounded as a person in many other seemingly irrelevant areas.
Could I have got more walking a less orthodox path? I honestly don't think so. I definitely felt this way about high-school - potentially the biggest waste of my life. I legitimately feel like most of my education came from outside of school - the books I was reading, the movies I was thinking about, the problems my friends were going through. There are some really key things school did for me, but could I have done more if I'd dedicated myself to just reading widely? Probably. Worked for the Bronte sisters, right?
But in terms of university, there's no way I could access the type of outcomes I have without the assistance of my professors. And you'd think Philosophy would be the most accessible discipline of all in terms of self-directed learning, but reading Philosophy widely is not the same as reading it deeply, and I think reading it deeply without assistance would be slow going. With the intensity of uni... I definitely got bang for my buck in terms of time spent and stuff gained.
The question for you I guess is, do you want to be a nurse? Because if you don't, stop doing nursing. You could try uni just for the sake of it - for the sake of an education. An Arts degree pursued like you were a dedicated student from the early 1900s (as opposed to a lost student in 2016 doing whatever they can get into) might sate your desires. Or not.
In general, I'd recommend everyone stick with uni. It sounds callous, but I'm from a low SEA, and the reason people live here is because they never did things like get degrees (either because they didn't want to, weren't in a position to, or didn't have the capacity). Now, usually, people in more affluent areas went and got a degree - usually because their situation allowed them to! Now, I'm not saying "poor people should educate themselves formally", because it's not that easy - but I'm making an observation that, in this society, you either play the game or you lose it. Lol. It's pretty fucked but that's how it seems to me so far.
My direct advice to you would be to go deeper. Let uni be your springboard and guide you in the right direction. When there's hundreds of people learning the same content, you can't expect the content alone to give you what you want. If it did, there'd be hundreds minus one students very upset. But go deeper into what you're studying and you might appreciate it more. For example, the introduction to philosophy unit was very basic. Quite shallow. But I personally gained a tonne from it, because underpinning the entire unit, for me, was the question "is there an objective morality?"
The unit in question was called "Life, Death, Morality", and whilst it didn't pose the questions, it equipped me with some things that meant I could ask the question myself and begin to find the answers. Probably different in nursing... but probably not. There's always more learning to be had, so if you're hungry, then let uni be an assistance instead of a hindrance.
Post by: literally lauren on April 25, 2016, 10:21:00 pm
What have you got out of uni? Do you think you could have got more through walking a less orthodox path?Funny you should ask this; unimelb sent out a bunch of surveys today about overall student experience, and after filling it out, I realised just how poorly I regarded my uni experience. There was a question towards the end like 'How likely are you to recommend studying at this institution to a prospective student' and I had to think about it for quite a while. And after spending ten minutes going through all these questions about the quality of lecturers/ discussions/ assessment feedback, I felt obliged to say 'not very likely.' Even though that end result of a degree has value, I feel like the experience of getting there wasn't ultimately worthwhile. But then I thought 'how much of that judgement is just coming from my own fairly fraught relationship with education systems, and should I even bother trying to generalise from my experiences given I know my path is not a well-worn one?'
But I had the same problem when, at the end of Year 12, the school sent us a survey asking us to rank everything out of 10. My school experience was a roller coaster of good and bad, so being told to assess, say, the quality of teachers out of 10 seemed ridiculous since there were some teachers for whom a 0 would've been too generous and others who deserved an unequivocal 11/10.
I'll probably do some huge rambling diatribes for both my majors in the subject reviews thread at the end of the year, but tl;dr my uni experience was basically:
1st year: Hell yeah! I'm gonna study Literature at uni and it's going to be so mind-alteringly awesome! Hmm... these texts are kind of dumb. Hmm... these lecturers and tutors are kind of dumb. Hmm... the fact that I'm sitting here in a workshop where they're teaching me how to use commas and write topic sentences is kind of dumb... but it's only first year; things'll get more challenging later. But I'm getting really bored; I'll do this random Linguistics subject. Oh. My. God. I love Linguistics.
2nd year: Wow... this is... not much better. Why do these tutors keep giving out vague assignments, nebulous feedback, and seemingly random marks? Oh, cool, I've done enough Lit subjects to qualify as an English major. Guess I'll fill my whole study plan up with Linguistics now.
3rd year: K, done most of the interesting Linguistics subjects and have already basically fulfilled the quota of credit points needed for each major... what can I do that'll give me the most amount of days off to work and do other things? Looks like I'm doing some random History subjects then.
But I don't see it as being that much of a downhill journey; it's just that in first year I was stupidly naive about what uni was. Then, in second year, I'd invested too much faith in things improving, so was even more disappointed when they didn't. And it wasn't really until this year that I started to think differently. Now it's a case of me making the best of some fairly mediocre classes, rather than hanging on the promise of things getting better.
My entire academic life I've been told things will get better. "Yeah, I know primary school sucks for you Lauren, but high school is when it gets really good" --> "Yeah, Year 7-10 is a waste of time, but wait till you get to VCE where you can choose subjects and learn stuff that interests you" --> "Yeah, VCE a broken system, but once you get to uni, that's when you get to take control of your learning and really polish that intellect" --> "Yeah, first year is a joke, but wait till you get to third year!" --> "Yeah, your entire undergraduate degree is basically just a technicality to get you into Honours and post-grad where things really kick off!"
^And for 13 years of schooling + almost 3 of uni, I've been content to keep chasing that carrot on a stick, buuuuut I've grown tired of the chase. Maybe I'll go back and do further post-grad study one day, but for now, there's something very liberating about being able to say 'I'm out. Screw this.'
I spend way too many hours reading psychology and philosophy and linguistics articles.If you want an even better time sink, try some Ling. data set exercises.
(http://i.imgur.com/KU4pk7A.jpg)
Don't mind my totally sensible annotations :P
If I did end up dropping out after this semester, I'd be finding something in line with my current driving passions.As depressing as it sounds, my logic for not dropping out was:
a) my school has a ridiculously high tertiary drop out rate and I didn't want to be one of 'those' kids, statistically speaking
b) even though I like to think I'm realistic about the limited usefulness of a BA when applying for jobs, I feel like the lack of a degree would be something I'd have to explain. And it'd be easier to stick around for three years of occasional learning but mostly boredom just so I could say I'd done so, vs. not being able to apply for a dream job because it has a degree as a hurdle requirement, or rocking up to a job interview and being told to justify my lack of tertiary education. There's no way to tell someone you dropped out of uni because you weren't finding it sufficiently intellectually stimulating without sounding like a pompous tool :P
So, question:
If you dropped out, do you think that would have any impact on your ability to find a job now/later?
I'd recommend sticking with it just in case since it sounds like you've got enough work/ reading/ distractions to keep your mind occupied. Definitely agree that the price of certain classes or units is utterly ridiculous, but you kind of have to put the 'how much HECS debt am I racking up just by sitting here in this pointless class' thoughts out of your head, otherwise you'll just compound your frustrations.
But, bigger question - literally ;)
What is it you hope to get out of uni?
Are you in it for the practical this-makes-me-employable aspect, or the this-is-opening-my-mind-to-new-concepts-and-knowledge-I-wouldn't-otherwise-have-access-to side of things? Because, to me, there's "learning" in a very directionless sense of just acquiring new facts or modes of understanding for the sake of doing so (fun!) and there's "learning" in a more transactional/ commodified sense whereby you are being provided with knowledge which is at least mostly directly applicable to a certain profession.
Summary: I'm over the education system. I actually want to - shock horror! - learn.
I legitimately feel like most of my education came from outside of school - the books I was reading, the movies I was thinking about, the problems my friends were going through. There are some really key things school did for me, but could I have done more if I'd dedicated myself to just reading widely? Probably.I'm not sure whether it's a triumph or a tragedy that some people end up learning in spite of education systems and not because of them :-\
Post by: Joseph41 on April 25, 2016, 10:33:46 pm
For what it's worth, I think Brenden's post above is fucking sick, and pretty much hits the nail on the head. Anyway:
Quote
What have you got out of uni?
Thinking skills. I can actually think now. Going through high school, I did okay, but I didn't really learn much. Memory of stuff sort of came and went with the year - nothing really stuck with me. Don't get me wrong, some of the things that we covered were interesting, but I'm not sure how much of it was useful to my life as such. That's been way different to uni. Whilst uni has been interesting to me, I think it has also benefitted me greatly.
If anything, I'm less cynical but more analytical than I once was. I approach everything in my life differently, with greater perspective, and I think more holistically. The best thing, though - and seemingly contrastingly to your own experience thus far - uni has actually fostered my love for learning. I want to learn more now than ever before, perhaps because my eyes have been opened a little to just how bloody much there is to learn.
High school is so very confined in what you cover, but also in how you cover it. Maybe it's an Arts thing, I don't know, but uni has been ridiculously helpful for me insofar as I have applied skills that I have developed there to everyday situations.
What else have I got out of uni? It's changed what I want to do with my life. Not dramatically, and certainly not suddenly, but I'm now pretty set on academia. I hadn't really considered that before I started.
Quote
Do you think you could have got more through walking a less orthodox path?
I honestly don't think so, no. Maybe I'm lucky in that my career aspirations are sort of related to uni itself. But I've learnt an absolute shitload about myself in the last 3.5 years - way more than any other 3.5 year period, I would imagine.
I've probably mentioned this before, but I was so close to dropping out of uni at pretty much the exact time that you're in now. The end of my first semester, the start of my second semester, the whole thing seemed like a load of shit. I didn't feel like I was learning much at all (perhaps because what I thought I knew was being challenged), I didn't like the environment, I didn't have any friends. I thought it was useless, stupid and a waste of time. I'm so glad I stuck through that period. As my degree developed, I studies more what I was really passionate about, and now I can't see myself not studying in the foreseeable future.
Maybe that's the crux of it. Passion. Are you passionate about nursing? Are you passionate about this degree? Why are you studying it? What do you want to do with when you're done?
Brenden's point is pretty much where I'm going with this. Take uni and what it gives you, and build on it. Your classes don't need to give you all of the answers, or even all of the questions. I can see you smashing uni out of the park and, more importantly, enjoying it, just on the back of taking the shit that you cover and extending it, applying it to different domains, and *really* (*REALLY*) thinking about it.
EDIT: Lauren posted whilst I was typing. Also a very interesting post.
Post by: DeezNuts on April 25, 2016, 11:05:29 pm
what kind of job are you doing right now heidi? You said you were loving it intensely?
Also, lauren what are you doing right now since you've left uni?
Oh, even though I'm a first year, I do feel somewhat tired of the routine of the education system (and still have to endure it for so many years to come :-\ ). Originally I relished higher education, but now it seems to just stand in the way of me going out and exploring the real world. However, the end goal(s) the degree will open for me keeps me going.I think its more about opening pathways than just solely education, uni is a business after all.
Post by: heids on April 26, 2016, 07:44:04 am
what kind of job are you doing right now heidi? You said you were loving it intensely?
I’m working as a nursing assistant in a dementia wing in an aged care home. It’s a dropout’s job. I was told it wouldn’t challenge me and I’d be bored and unfulfilled pretty quick, but it turns out that, in a job working with humans, you can always push yourself to outperform requirements, build ever-deeper relationships, cope with some tough enotions, and just generally run a top-secret mission to transform the entire organisation :P
Post by: literally lauren on April 26, 2016, 07:53:41 am
Also, lauren what are you doing right now since you've left uni?*Technically* I'm still at uni (3rd year) but have wrangled my compulsory attendance classes down to one day, and even then am barely mentally present. But I like to think of myself as having 'left' already :P
...Thinking skills... etc.Interesting that you found uni helped you as a person and not just as a student/academic. I think that's what all courses should aspire to, but when they can't even live up to the latter, it makes it tough to justify overall. Out of curiousity, was there anything that precipitated that change for you at the end of your first year? Was it just a shift in attitude, or did you find that the subjects/ teaching/ environment did actually change at that point?
It’s a dropout’s job.I know this was probably facetious, (and I'm probably a hypocrite because I make jokes about how pointless my skills are and how unemployable I am all the time) but nevertheless...
(http://i.imgur.com/snk8tDs.gif)
A true "dropout's job" would be no job at all. And your job sounds bloody intense. So I hope anyone who was telling you it'd be unfulfilling or a waste of time now has to hang their head in shame over the fact that it's actually both demanding and rewarding.
Semi-relevant thing from this piece in The Age:
Quote
"Education is an unalloyed good – except when it becomes a barrier to opportunity and a compulsory financial levy on young people that confers dubious intellectual advantages. The tertiary sector has become another sacred institution that we're not allowed to question, let alone challenge, despite the abundant evidence of its failure lying scattered around us.
Instead of offering a springboard to achievement universities have become another hurdle we're placing in the way of young people. What should represent a chance to escape, to think, and to open minds has become a factory encouraging conformity, routine, and basic skills rather than the ability to think."
Post by: Joseph41 on April 26, 2016, 09:50:39 am
Interesting that you found uni helped you as a person and not just as a student/academic. I think that's what all courses should aspire to, but when they can't even live up to the latter, it makes it tough to justify overall. Out of curiousity, was there anything that precipitated that change for you at the end of your first year? Was it just a shift in attitude, or did you find that the subjects/ teaching/ environment did actually change at that point?
I really had to think about this (on the way to uni, coincidentally). Here are some random thoughts:
At the time, I largely considered high school as merely a means to an end. I was doing it not necessarily because I enjoyed it or deemed it worthwhile, but because it was necessary to get into uni (which I hoped to be enjoyable and worthwhile). The way I see it, there isn’t as much potential to fully embrace high school as there is uni – you’re there five days a week, you have classes pretty much all day, and then you have assignments, SACs and exams to worry about. It’s also generally a pretty big year, what with friendship groups and work and whatever else.
I suppose during my first year of uni, my mindset hadn’t changed. I still saw work (as in uni work/study) as simply a means to an end. But one that had changed, and that was the fact that I no longer knew what the end was. So I got into uni – great, now what? I had no career direction, I didn’t know what to study, and I had three years before me of an Arts degree. Arts degrees, as we all know, aren’t exactly couched as the clearest pathway to ensured employment.
As a result (and probably due to other things, too), I was a bit down in the dumps. But in the years since, I’ve started to see uni as an end in itself, and I think that that has been really, really helpful for me. I still don’t really know what I’ll end up doing, or even what I want to end up doing, but that’s okay. I don’t really need to at this point. Instead, I started to engage more with the work at hand, started to really think about it, and ended up enjoying it a whole bunch more. My results improved, too.
I’m not saying that I absolutely threw myself into uni life, because I didn’t. I’m still very withdrawn and don’t often talk to people outside of (or evening during) class. But I joined a couple of clubs, started volunteering a bit, and all of a sudden, uni is something that I do rather than something that I have to do. It’s a pretty subtle distinction, I guess, but for me it’s had a big impact.
Travelling was probably good for perspective, too. I tended to always come back to Melbourne refreshed and really ready to smash some essays and progress through my degree. I’ve been pretty lucky in this regard – exchange was also great for similar reasons.
Perhaps like high school, too, I’ve found that the further I’ve got through uni, the more specific my gaze has become. You can sort of think of Year 7/8/9 as an analogue of first year uni, in which you’re sort of testing the waters of a lot of subjects. It’s somewhat forced upon you in high school, but you’re still pretty likely to study a wide range of things in your first year (speaking from personal experience, here; it will clearly change from degree to degree). It’s natural that you’ll like some of these more than others. For example, I seemed to like Linguistics and International Studies more than Psychology and Human Rights Theory. Because of that, I majored in Linguistics and International Studies. Of those two options, I enjoyed Linguistics more, so now I’m doing Honours in Linguistics. Within Linguistics, I enjoy sociolinguistics/discourse analysis more than ‘formal’ linguistics, so that’s what I’m focusing on in my thesis. And so it goes, becoming more and more specific directly in line with your interest(s). So that has probably helped.
I’ve also become more interested in the lives of my professors. That’s sounds a bit stalkery, but I hope it doesn’t come across as too abnormal. The reason for this is that I gradually became more interested in a career in academia, and my professors sort of act as motivation and/or guidance toward that. In that my career aspirations have gradually become less murky, the lack of direction that I mentioned earlier sort of subsided. It’s still there, but not as prominent. I also became more familiar with the whole university life, which in many ways is quite different to high school. That took some adjusting.
I think my personality, too, is pretty vulnerable to something along the lines of the mere exposure effect. That is, the more I’m exposed to something, the more I identify with or enjoy it. It happened in high school – Year 12 was significantly better than any other year. It happened with work – I didn’t particularly enjoy it until I had been there for a few years (nothing else really changed). And it’s happened with uni – each year has been better than the last. Part of this, perhaps, is the physical connection. I never really went to uni in my first year, opting to listen to my lectures and whatnot. This will change for each individual, but I’ve found that actually attending my lectures has been useful insofar as I now feel more connected to my degree. Sounds a bit wanky, sure, but it’s true.
You could probably contend that my mental state had something to do with the whole thing, too, but that is very much a chicken and egg scenario.
P.S. Lauren, you are the master of humorous GIFs.
Post by: Orson on April 26, 2016, 10:21:04 am
"Yeah, I know primary school sucks for you Lauren, but high school is when it gets really good" --> "Yeah, Year 7-10 is a waste of time, but wait till you get to VCE where you can choose subjects and learn stuff that interests you" --> "Yeah, VCE a broken system, but once you get to uni, that's when you get to take control of your learning and really polish that intellect" --> "Yeah, first year is a joke, but wait till you get to third year!" --> "Yeah, your entire undergraduate degree is basically just a technicality to get you into Honours and post-grad where things really kick off!"
^^This so much. People in my course are like, "it only matters from 3rd year if your looking to do further study, as your GPA only counts from there".
Post by: pi on April 26, 2016, 05:18:42 pm
I’m working as a nursing assistant in a dementia wing in an aged care home. It’s a dropout’s job. I was told it wouldn’t challenge me and I’d be bored and unfulfilled pretty quick, but it turns out that, in a job working with humans, you can always push yourself to outperform requirements, build ever-deeper relationships, cope with some tough enotions, and just generally run a top-secret mission to transform the entire organisation :P
If you like this sort of stuff, but also want some academic rigour in your uni life, have you considered medicine?
Post by: Yacoubb on April 26, 2016, 06:10:21 pm
For many people going to uni is an orthodox post-school route. It's part of the 'routine' I guess. You leave school and 'next' is going to uni to complete a degree and get to your dream job. For many, including myself, the ultimate end product of uni is actually graduating to get a good job. I apologise in advance if my thoughts come across being all over the board because I have many thoughts and I want to try to articulate all of them.
First and foremost: uni.
As I mentioned before, uni for many is simply the bridge between the present and their dream job. When I started uni, that was my perspective and today I stand and say that I look at university completely differently. I have grown in the last few years so much through university, and it has exposed me to so much - academically and otherwise, that I don't believe I would have obtained otherwise. Although my school life ultimately consisted of me working independently to get myself to where I am, I think uni capitalised on something I consider of utmost importance - independence. You learn to be independent not just academically, but in general. You recognise that you are in command of your life, and you acknowledge that you have responsibilities to fulfil. Sure, the product of my university degree is hopefully going to be that I become a doctor, but I am treasuring every moment of university that is making me have a greater interest and appreciation for factors of life unrelated to school - politics, Arts...the lot! For me, university is not merely a vehicle to your dream job, it is a vehicle that imparts invaluable knowledge about everything that helps you grow as an individual.
Second: job
For me, the ultimate job is a job that grants me happiness and a good financial component. I'm being absolutely realistic - the financial component of a job for me is pivotal. Coming from a low SES, I find myself very content and am 100% blessed with parents who provide for me and there is always someone who isn't privileged to what I have, even if it isn't a lot. But I digress; the ultimate component of a job is something that makes you feel fulfilled, grants you happiness and as cliche as it sounds, makes you want to wake up in the morning and look forward to something. Some people can only obtain such happiness through completion of a university degree that enables them to become a nurse, doctor, architect, engineer, scholar amongst a plethora of other careers. Some obtain this fulfilment and contentment through jobs that do not require university. If you don't need to go through university to get this job, it seems kind of pointless to need to go through university.
I reach my final point: I would be lying if I said university is easy and always feels beneficial. I am writing a paper on the appropriation of public space and I am slaving over it, ensuring I've numbered every page, typed every font and cited academic materials from six independent sources. But I think looking at the big picture of university is what helps put into perspective the integral role it has and will continue to play in my growth (and maybe yours if you decide to continue with university). The job is the end product and that could be obtained with or without university - but the growth university has provided me with is something that for me has been purely driven by university.
I wish you all the best with your decision and I sincerely hope this helped :)
Post by: heids on May 04, 2016, 04:46:06 pm
I'll be back in a week or two, or maybe longer, I'm not sure.
Post by: heids on August 03, 2020, 12:50:15 pm
In 2016, I did end up dropping out. I did the whole dramatic mental-breakdown thing, and couldn't study or work for another year. I then began volunteering in second-hand retail, got a job, progressed to management, and am still working FT there. Despite being retail (lol), I've enjoyed it a lot and been passionate about it (recycling, affordability for all, community building etc), and felt that I didn't need uni.
I have now made the decision to return to uni in 2021 and begin my nursing degree again – a circle-back move I truly didn’t expect but am very confident in.
This time, it’s a conscious decision rather than sliding into it by default, and I think that will make all the difference.
What I've realised since
What I’ve realised that didn’t seem important then is that uni will open up far more options.
As a nurse, I’ll be able to:
1. Work in so many different specialties and settings
2. Shift towards healthcare management or education
3. Pivot in the healthcare profession in all different directions (allied health? even med if I was that determined to destroy my life)
4. Have more job security and location flexibility
If I unexpectedly hate it all, I can go right back to my current job options anyway – I have little to lose and everything to gain. Sure, I already have open doors, jobs I can thrive in without uni. But uni gives me extra keys, more available doors, more flexibility, more progression. It doesn’t close (most of) the already-open doors.
Also, money actually matters! Yes! Surprise! I had to work full time and support myself financially to see that long-term income really counts, as I'd always been shown it didn't.
In saying that, I still don’t think I personally could face a generic degree that wasn’t directly job-oriented. Uni does take time and reduce your short-term income and stability. Not everyone can afford the loss of income and extra costs during uni, especially if self-supporting.
I wrestled over this (in the most minor and entitled way possible lol) in making my return-to-uni decision. Having been working full time while share-housing, I've built up savings and was considering buying property. I was scared of uni setting me back. Focusing on the short term obscured the long term - but I'm incredibly lucky to be in a position to sacrifice the short term for the long term and still easily survive. Not everyone is.
Limiting views
A couple of views I held that contributed to the perspective above in 2016:
1. I wanted to special, not do things the way 'everyone' did them. Everyone went through uni by default, so I didn't want to. (Note: working in a low-skill area I’ve since realised that it's not actually the default I thought it was.)
2. I felt like three years was an interminably long time. In reality, if I'd completed that degree then, I would currently be in my second year of working post uni - not that long after all.
3. Quite an entitled attitude. I expected uni to offer me everything, rather than realising what Brenden said above at the time - I have to use it as a jumping off place to earn and find things myself.
How I’m going to approach university differently this time
If I do hate it – so be it. Meeting the requirements is a means to an end; suck it up and get through it for a short period of time. It’s that simple. Even if bits of it turn out to be limiting and frustrating, I'll still find all the value I possibly can.
I'm going to constantly search for ways to grow my skills, knowledge, experience and career prospects through uni. I'm going to get all I possibly can out of the resources and books, the staff, the simulation environments, the placements. I'm going to learn how to be a damn good nurse. And appreciate it all the more for not taking it for granted.
I'm pretty keen.
Post by: Joseph41 on August 03, 2020, 12:54:25 pm
Post by: The Cat In The Hat on August 03, 2020, 12:58:42 pm
Post by: keltingmeith on August 03, 2020, 01:15:56 pm
If I unexpectedly hate it all, I can go right back to my current job options anyway – I have little to lose and everything to gain. Sure, I already have open doors, jobs I can thrive in without uni. But uni gives me extra keys, more available doors, more flexibility, more progression. It doesn’t close (most of) the already-open doors.
To be fair, I don't think it's entirely all to gain and nothing to lose, as you suggest. Having a university degree can be more beneficial than people are aware - my dad has actually told me that when hiring people, he often looks favourably on those who have a university degree. Not because they have skills associated with it, but because he knows how hard it is to get one (for context, he failed year 12 [back when VIC did HSC lol], then had some troubles in university that he's never gone into but I know meant it took him a couple years longer to get his uni degree), and so he knows that those who have one have the grit to dedicate themselves to a task and get it done. Even with a nursing degree, and him hiring into IT, you'd be looked at favourably for employment (I mean, you'd probably have to demonstrate some IT skills still, but eh, you're a bright cookie)
However, if you decide to just go back to retail, you do have this HECS debt that needs to be paid back still, and so you're not just losing money in the short-term - you're also losing it in the long-term. Just something to be aware of - I don't personally think it should be a deal-breaker, but if you know you're going to end up in a job that's not going to require a university degree by any stretch of the imagination (in particular, trades and those that you can get qualified with a 1-year TAFE course which is usually cheaper than uni). Having said that, I think my mum's managed to get a cert IV she'll never have to pay off because she won't be able to get into the work force, so that's something
Limiting views
A couple of views I held that contributed to the perspective above in 2016:
1. I wanted to special, not do things the way 'everyone' did them. Everyone went through uni by default, so I didn't want to. (Note: working in a low-skill area I’ve since realised that it's not actually the default I thought it was.)
2. I felt like three years was an interminably long time. In reality, if I'd completed that degree then, I would currently be in my second year of working post uni - not that long after all.
3. Quite an entitled attitude. I expected uni to offer me everything, rather than realising what Brenden said above at the time - I have to use it as a jumping off place to earn and find things myself.
It's really interesting looking at these comments - the amount of people I've met who had the same biases is astonishing, and it is honestly REALLY refreshing to see someone admit that they had them and there was an issue with them. I had one person who used to say all these nasty things about TAFE, and when I tried to stop them, they countered with, "well if it's so great, why didn't you go to TAFE?" - and when I said because TAFE didn't offer science, they were genuinely shocked. They literally thought TAFE was just somewhere you go because you didn't get an ATAR, and it was a shameful thing to do. She had absolutely no idea that TAFE was just a place that got you different qualifications, or that there were people who went there knowing that they were never going to go to uni.
I will note - nothing of what I said is reflective of any users on AN, only people I've met IRL. Maybe there are people here who think that way, idk, but I promise I'm not calling anyone out. Unless you feel called out, in which case you're definitely projecting onto yourself, and should maybe spend some time in self-reflection to try and figure out why my words seem so hurtful to you? (and if that comes back to you think I'm an arse - hey, I'm happy to discuss that with you, inbox is open)
Post by: literally lauren on August 03, 2020, 01:46:38 pm
Right now I'm imagining AN pulling out sparklers and party hats because HEIDI'S BACK.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-25-2017/1v_s7g.gif)
Post by: heids on August 03, 2020, 03:33:45 pm
However, if you decide to just go back to retail, you do have this HECS debt that needs to be paid back still, and so you're not just losing money in the short-term - you're also losing it in the long-term.
Yes, absolutely. It's still not hugely significant if you're on a lower (e.g. a lot of retail) income due to staggered repayment thresholds - I think I paid back around $35 last financial year. I have several friends in retail with completed degrees (including a super intelligent linguistics major) who don't pay anything back because they don't even earn enough.
But you never know when legislation may change and make this a much bigger burden than it currently is.
Quote
Just something to be aware of - I don't personally think it should be a deal-breaker, but if you know you're going to end up in a job that's not going to require a university degree by any stretch of the imagination (in particular, trades and those that you can get qualified with a 1-year TAFE course which is usually cheaper than uni).
As I noted above, I don't think I could personally do a degree just for the sake of learning/enjoying it/getting a degree, without expectations of related jobs. I know lots of people value that (see Brenden, J41 above), but it's not for me.
I HIGHLY support TAFE. Many with certificates, diplomas and trades end up with excellent jobs. I do have certs III/IV, and would be reasonably confident of decent lifelong employment with them. I'm just ready personally to go further in a way I simply can't without a degree.
Quote
It's really interesting looking at these comments - the amount of people I've met who had the same biases is astonishing, and it is honestly REALLY refreshing to see someone admit that they had them and there was an issue with them.
It's much easier to admit one's clouded or biased views after the fact :P While I try to be self-aware, in reality I'll only see a lot of things in hindsight. I'll probably have a different perspective on this very topic in a few years time (when I do, I'll try to re-bump :P)
Post by: turinturambar on August 06, 2020, 01:52:38 am
I was a self-taught software developer from pre-teen years, and one of those annoying people who spent Year 10 - 12 thinking "What do you mean it's really hard figuring out what to do after school? I know exactly what I want to do". I could quite possibly have wrangled a job without a degree, but figured a software engineering degree at Unimelb would be interesting and would make it easier to get a job, so that's what I did. And it worked: I had a part-time software development job from the end of first year, and had accepted a full-time software development job offer before my final semester (at a different company - the company I'm still working at).
I did learn a lot while I was in Uni, and still use some of it today in my work. Some of that learning was in class, but much of it was self-taught. As a teen, I'd read just about every computer related book at my local library, but it wasn't much, and I couldn't usually get exactly what I wanted. The Uni libraries were just so big, and I could get access to so many books on any topic I wanted. In particular, I fell in love with the Engineering library, with its rows and rows of books between Dewey 004 and 006. I spent hours in there, and borrowed heaps of books which formed most of my reading on the train to and from Uni.
One other unexpected thing I found at Uni (which certainly contributed to making it feel worth it) was fellow students who were interested in the same thing as me, and fellow students who were more intelligent than me. I had come from a small school, and was at least arrogant enough to think I was best at most of the things I cared about, but it's really helpful being able to talk with others.
And so I completed Uni. It was a bit sad leaving a place I had happy memories of, but I was busy, I moved onto the next stage of my One True Life Plan, and I'm not sure I really expected to be back. I think I had acquired a respect for the concept of "life-long learning", but didn't feel I would need to return to Uni to achieve that. I was self-taught before Uni, I was partly self-taught during Uni, and I would remain self-taught after Uni. And I haven't gone back as a student, and don't really expect to. But it still became a more important part of my identity than I ever expected.
At the time, I clearly had a very transactional view of Uni. I paid my fees, I got my degree, I got my job. End of story. I didn't really understand the talk of the importance of Alumni involvement, etc. But a few years back I had more time and was feeling less happy with the One True Life Plan I set myself, and that's when I began to reconnect with the Uni and discover I appreciated it far more than I realised. I began going to a few seminars after work that alumni were invited to. I got on more mailing lists and was invited to more events. I realised how beautiful the campus itself was (I think Unimelb Parkville is a really nice campus). I felt like I belonged. I even went along to the Unimelb - USyd Boat Race last year, which I would legit never in a million years have expected to do while narrowly focused on a degree as a springboard to a job.
This shift also came with my shift from software development being a passion to just a job (though there are worse things than a stable and well-paid job). My interests widened significantly, and my job couldn't keep up. As a result, the events I was going to weren't in software, but in areas I probably wouldn't have given the time of day while a student. I've been to events in BioSciences, in Agriculture, and in Space Science. I went to the launch event for a new history curriculum last year. I've dined at University House - a place I didn't even know existed as a student. I was at a release of Eastern Barred Bandicoots at Mount Rothwell just before Grand Final holiday last year, specifically because of my involvement with the university in the last few years.
That path is probably slightly unusual (understatement?), but I've come to learn that a university can mean as much or as little as you want it to. Was my university experience worth it? Clearly yes, whether from a transactional perspective, from meeting new people (only a few of which I'm still in touch with), or from coming to form an unexpected part of my identity.
A degree can open doors, and if you want to be self-directed and self-learning, University lecturers may or may not be able to support you, but it does give you access to a lot of resources that I found harder to get elsewhere. If I were to do it again I might want more breadth and less laser-focus on preparing myself for one vocation, but I can't really fault former-me when I still use that knowledge in that vocation.
Post by: brenden on August 06, 2020, 01:46:24 pm
Post by: heids on August 07, 2020, 07:43:31 pm
I did learn a lot while I was in Uni, and still use some of it today in my work. Some of that learning was in class, but much of it was self-taught. As a teen, I'd read just about every computer related book at my local library, but it wasn't much, and I couldn't usually get exactly what I wanted. The Uni libraries were just so big, and I could get access to so many books on any topic I wanted. In particular, I fell in love with the Engineering library, with its rows and rows of books between Dewey 004 and 006. I spent hours in there, and borrowed heaps of books which formed most of my reading on the train to and from Uni.
Uni definitely offers far more access to a wide range of information than you can usually get. I wonder how much this varies from uni to uni (as I'm planning to go to Deakin, which may be less valuable in that regard than Monash or UniMelb).
Quote
I didn't really understand the talk of the importance of Alumni involvement, etc. But a few years back I had more time and was feeling less happy with the One True Life Plan I set myself, and that's when I began to reconnect with the Uni and discover I appreciated it far more than I realised. I began going to a few seminars after work that alumni were invited to. I got on more mailing lists and was invited to more events. I realised how beautiful the campus itself was (I think Unimelb Parkville is a really nice campus). I felt like I belonged. I even went along to the Unimelb - USyd Boat Race last year, which I would legit never in a million years have expected to do while narrowly focused on a degree as a springboard to a job.
[...]
I've come to learn that a university can mean as much or as little as you want it to.
I'm really intrigued! Fantastic perspective, thank you.
I'm definitely feeling more encouraged to get involved in what uni offers rather than seeing it simply as a means to an end. Rather than focusing on minimising time at uni and maximising money earned, I want to maximise the opportunities uni offers I won't necessarily get again. Realistically, if my career goes well, I'll be easily able to make up the money I miss during a degree.
Great fun to hit a random log in and see this update at the right time! Thanks Heidi!
<3 ty Brenden